Edema, mucopolysaccharides and Glycoproteins?

[Raypmom]

Thank you for all the helped in my first thread about my miscarriage/health issues.

Started progest e high dosage. After the first high dosage I slept right away, didn't even hear the alarm the next morning. I was late, but I didn't care. I was just happy to be sleeping again. Last night same thing, after using a dime size topically, I started to get cold really fast then a little panicky and really annoyed by everything. I finally fell asleep. I feel like that's progress. I have also been taking notes, and writing down things as I listen to interviews of ray peat talk about thyroid functions and etc. I came out with a few things that could be happening to me and I'm wondering if you guys can help me make sense of it.
Recently I read about ray discussing the characteristics of low thyroid function and what happens inside the body. He said something about glycoproteins and mucopolysaccharides that I didn't quite understand. He said how edema is when there is an abnormal storage of this muco. It's in areas around the bridge of the nose, behind the eyes causing bulging eyeballs in some hypothyroid people and the structure of the face changes as these fluids build up. He said a lot of things I couldn't understand because of all the scientific words he used. Also swelling of the face is over produced mucous blood vessel inefficiency ? (what does this mean) That my body can't break them down properly? Where are these found so I can avoid eating these terrible things LOL. I am willing to cut anything out just to get to the problem of my swelling face/eyes. Some days it’s not so bad, and I can't feel the swelling but some days it feel like my face is a balloon. My husband says he doesn’t see it, but he's wrong! Because I can feel it. I always wondered why it’s more in the face? So conclusion, it's not water retention, it's mucus/fluid tissue build up from something in my diet that I don't have the proper means to digest. I still have no clue what I'm saying, I can't pin point and make any changes until I understand this. I'm watching more videos and I hope someone out there with more knowledge can help.
Did all the years I went without sugar cause this ? I think I may have approach ray peat all in the wrong way in the beginning and it's now back to bite me.

Things that are heavy in my diet
MILK
oj
Geletin
coconut oil
SUGAR
coffee

 

[Raypmom]

I want to add I'm going to get blood work soon. If I wanted to fix this situation with nutrition, what blood test should be done first ? I don't insurance so this will be pricy. I'm thinking a hormone one and what ever you guys suggest as IMPORTANT for starteres.

 

[Raypmom]

Besides fasting, or chronic protein deficiency, the common causes of hypothyroidism are excessive stress or “aerobic” (i.e., anaerobic) exercise, and diets containing beans, lentils, nuts, unsaturated fats (including carotene), and undercooked broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, or mustard greens. Many health conscious people become hypothyroid with a synergistic program of undercooked vegetables, legumes instead of animal protein, oils instead of butter, carotene instead of vitamin A, and breathless exercise instead of a stimulating life.

The above basically summerizes my formal self habits.

 

[north]

"Glycosaminoglycans[1] (GAGs) or mucopolysaccharides[2] are long unbranched polysaccharides consisting of a repeating disaccharide unit. The repeating unit (except for keratan) consists of an amino sugar (N-acetylglucosamine or N-acetylgalactosamine) along with a uronic sugar (glucuronic acid or iduronic acid) or galactose.[3] Glycosaminoglycans are highly polar and attract water. They are therefore useful to the body as a lubricant or as a shock absorber." Wikipedia

If you are hypothyroid your very high fluid diet will be a big burden on your system. There is probably a need to correct thyroid along with higher fluid intake.

Edema you could say is cased by several things which is unnecessary to list here (better to read RP articles) but most likely a much higher intake of salt and lower your intake of liquid will help your fluid retention. Its common that you cant retain salt in your body when hypo, which would increase aldosterone, VGEF (vascular permeability factor). Also prolactin might be affected. There was some studies done which RP talks about that mice given water got higher prolactin but adding salt the prolactin wasn't affected. He talks about this in one of the edema articles.

Maybe you could do a test for a few days with lower fluid, and high salt and see how it works out.
I find potatoes really good, and gelatin in form of candy made of lemonade concentrate to get a lot of sugar in low amount of liquid. If you eat potato, cheese and those gelatin candy and like 15-20g salt for 1 or a few days, then after that you will have more knowledge to evaluate how to proceed in the long run.

 

[Peatri Dish]

Are you eating carrot salad? That will help with endotoxin in the bowel.

 

[johns74]

Have you tested removing gelatin powder from your diet for some time? Gelatin powder contains endotoxin. Some people absorb it significantly, others don't. It might be worth testing by not eating gelatin powder for a week or so.

 

[Raypmom]

Are you eating carrot salad? That will help with endotoxin in the bowel.

Yes every other day if not every day. For a very long time.

 

[Raypmom]

Have you tested removing gelatin powder from your diet for some time? Gelatin powder contains endotoxin. Some people absorb it significantly, others don't. It might be worth testing by not eating gelatin powder for a week or so.

This is my MAJOR source of protein, ever since peating for the last 2 years I have gelatin with my coffee, broths, oj etc. So this sounds very interesting to me. I have tried cutting things and putting them back, but never thought of gelatin. This is eye opening for me -endotoxin in gelatin. I would have never though! :!: Taking notes right now!

 

[Raypmom]

"Glycosaminoglycans[1] (GAGs) or mucopolysaccharides[2] are long unbranched polysaccharides consisting of a repeating disaccharide unit. The repeating unit (except for keratan) consists of an amino sugar (N-acetylglucosamine or N-acetylgalactosamine) along with a uronic sugar (glucuronic acid or iduronic acid) or galactose.[3] Glycosaminoglycans are highly polar and attract water. They are therefore useful to the body as a lubricant or as a shock absorber." Wikipedia

If you are hypothyroid your very high fluid diet will be a big burden on your system. There is probably a need to correct thyroid along with higher fluid intake.

Edema you could say is cased by several things which is unnecessary to list here (better to read RP articles) but most likely a much higher intake of salt and lower your intake of liquid will help your fluid retention. Its common that you cant retain salt in your body when hypo, which would increase aldosterone, VGEF (vascular permeability factor). Also prolactin might be affected. There was some studies done which RP talks about that mice given water got higher prolactin but adding salt the prolactin wasn't affected. He talks about this in one of the edema articles.

Maybe you could do a test for a few days with lower fluid, and high salt and see how it works out.
I find potatoes really good, and gelatin in form of candy made of lemonade concentrate to get a lot of sugar in low amount of liquid. If you eat potato, cheese and those gelatin candy and like 15-20g salt for 1 or a few days, then after that you will have more knowledge to evaluate how to proceed in the long run.

My major food source is OJ, Milk and coffee. Dinner is the only solid meal I have. So this could be it. I'm on a zero starch diet. I have been, unless I have no choice of other food. I quit potatoes becuase I always felt bloated after eating them even with coconut oil and some butter. (so maybe potato starch) never tried that either. Never for once though it could be my fluid intake. How is the gelatin candy made, I will do this. It's sounds promising to give me some idea of where to start. Also milk being a major part of my diet is it possible that I can't digest milk and I don't even realize it ?

I am looking for his articles on edema now, I will do some reading thank you for the awesom tips I appreciate it!

 

[Raypmom]

"The physiological loss of sodium occurs when energy metabolism fails, as indiabetes, hypothyroidism, hyperestrogenism, and starvation. What these conditions have in common is an increased level of free fatty acids in the blood. Increased free fatty acids impair the use of glucose. The consumption of carbohydrate, like an increase of thyroid hormone, insulin, or progesterone, increases the retention of sodium; fructose is the most effective carbohydrate (Rebello, et al., 1983)." -ray peat

The only carbohydrate my stomache can handle is fruit juices like oj, but it does require lots of liquids. So gelatin candy drops are the way to get them? can I leave the gelatin out. Another user sugested it could a source of endotoxin.

 

[sctb]

Have you tested removing gelatin powder from your diet for some time? Gelatin powder contains endotoxin. Some people absorb it significantly, others don't. It might be worth testing by not eating gelatin powder for a week or so.

Are you sure you mean to say it contains endotoxin, or that
it promotes the creation and release of endotoxin? How can
something exogenous contain endogenous toxins?

Scott

 

[johns74]

That it contains.

 

[Raypmom]

That it contains.

I'm starting to cut it off tomorrow. I use greatlakes gelatin (bovine). We'll see how it goes
Thanks,
Raypmom

 

[HDD]

Here is a thread about myxedema. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you are experiencing.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2316&hilit=Myxedema

 

[north]

"Glycosaminoglycans[1] (GAGs) or mucopolysaccharides[2] are long unbranched polysaccharides consisting of a repeating disaccharide unit. The repeating unit (except for keratan) consists of an amino sugar (N-acetylglucosamine or N-acetylgalactosamine) along with a uronic sugar (glucuronic acid or iduronic acid) or galactose.[3] Glycosaminoglycans are highly polar and attract water. They are therefore useful to the body as a lubricant or as a shock absorber." Wikipedia

If you are hypothyroid your very high fluid diet will be a big burden on your system. There is probably a need to correct thyroid along with higher fluid intake.

Edema you could say is cased by several things which is unnecessary to list here (better to read RP articles) but most likely a much higher intake of salt and lower your intake of liquid will help your fluid retention. Its common that you cant retain salt in your body when hypo, which would increase aldosterone, VGEF (vascular permeability factor). Also prolactin might be affected. There was some studies done which RP talks about that mice given water got higher prolactin but adding salt the prolactin wasn't affected. He talks about this in one of the edema articles.

Maybe you could do a test for a few days with lower fluid, and high salt and see how it works out.
I find potatoes really good, and gelatin in form of candy made of lemonade concentrate to get a lot of sugar in low amount of liquid. If you eat potato, cheese and those gelatin candy and like 15-20g salt for 1 or a few days, then after that you will have more knowledge to evaluate how to proceed in the long run.

My major food source is OJ, Milk and coffee. Dinner is the only solid meal I have. So this could be it. I'm on a zero starch diet. I have been, unless I have no choice of other food. I quit potatoes becuase I always felt bloated after eating them even with coconut oil and some butter. (so maybe potato starch) never tried that either. Never for once though it could be my fluid intake. How is the gelatin candy made, I will do this. It's sounds promising to give me some idea of where to start. Also milk being a major part of my diet is it possible that I can't digest milk and I don't even realize it ?

I am looking for his articles on edema now, I will do some reading thank you for the awesom tips I appreciate it!

Well, i would just like to invite you to think about the fluid intake. To my knowledge it is pretty important, I to drank shitloads of OJ and milk when i first found out about Peat, and i noticed during warm summer it worked fairly ok, but during winter it made me seriously messed up. I also noticed very big difference in fluid tolerance when hypo and when not hypo.

Btw, after reading the replies here about myxedema etc i read some stuff about it and found this in the Ray Peat 1996 interview thread:
"It's been known most of this century that in areas where they eat beans as a staple of the diet, such as in China, many types of beans, including soybeans, but in the Andes region, just ordinary beans are the major cause of hypothyroidism, because of various anti-thyroid factors in beans, lentils, and certain nuts -- peanuts, for example.

In eastern Europe, the cabbage and turnip staple diets were major causes of cretinism and chronic goiter and myxedema. Myxedema is the name for one type of hypothyroidism that develops in adults, in which mucousy material forms in the tissues, makes the tongue thicken, the skin gets coarse and inelastic -- but variations of myxedema can cause a lot of strange diseases that are put down to genetic causes more often than hypothyroidism, but you can cure them, in sometimes a week or two, with the right dose of thyroid.

For example, certain types of mitral valve prolapses are just from an accumulation of a mucous-like material in the valve, making it thick and inefficient. Glaucoma in low thyroid involves a swelling and overproduction and increased thickness of the fluids in the eyeball. Some types of Graves' disease, which most doctors think of as hyperthyroidism -- but hypothyroidism, which causes the pituitary to become overactive -- hypothyroidism very predictably tends to cause bulging eyes, because the thyroid stimulating hormone from the pituitary causes a mucousy material to form in the area behind the eyeball, causing a protrusion of the eyeball.

The mucousy materials that are overproduced can also cause blood vessel inefficiency and rigidity, and contributes to things like varicose veins. When this material gets in the joints, it causes cartilage deformities. The old textbooks used to show teenagers with deformed joints that caused the same deviation of the bones -- at the elbow joint especially, and the knee joint especially, with knock knees for example -- but in old people you see the fingers deviating to one side, because the cartilage is getting deformed.

The right balance of thyroid and the youth associated hormones -- progesterone and pregnenolone, and to some extent, DHEA -- will rebalance the production of these mucous-like molecules -- the glycoproteins and mucopolysaccharides, they're called -- and in just a week or two, you can often correct the deformity in a permanent way, so that the joint functions without pain or distortion." - RP

 

[Raypmom]

"Glycosaminoglycans[1] (GAGs) or mucopolysaccharides[2] are long unbranched polysaccharides consisting of a repeating disaccharide unit. The repeating unit (except for keratan) consists of an amino sugar (N-acetylglucosamine or N-acetylgalactosamine) along with a uronic sugar (glucuronic acid or iduronic acid) or galactose.[3] Glycosaminoglycans are highly polar and attract water. They are therefore useful to the body as a lubricant or as a shock absorber." Wikipedia

If you are hypothyroid your very high fluid diet will be a big burden on your system. There is probably a need to correct thyroid along with higher fluid intake.

Edema you could say is cased by several things which is unnecessary to list here (better to read RP articles) but most likely a much higher intake of salt and lower your intake of liquid will help your fluid retention. Its common that you cant retain salt in your body when hypo, which would increase aldosterone, VGEF (vascular permeability factor). Also prolactin might be affected. There was some studies done which RP talks about that mice given water got higher prolactin but adding salt the prolactin wasn't affected. He talks about this in one of the edema articles.

Maybe you could do a test for a few days with lower fluid, and high salt and see how it works out.
I find potatoes really good, and gelatin in form of candy made of lemonade concentrate to get a lot of sugar in low amount of liquid. If you eat potato, cheese and those gelatin candy and like 15-20g salt for 1 or a few days, then after that you will have more knowledge to evaluate how to proceed in the long run.

My major food source is OJ, Milk and coffee. Dinner is the only solid meal I have. So this could be it. I'm on a zero starch diet. I have been, unless I have no choice of other food. I quit potatoes becuase I always felt bloated after eating them even with coconut oil and some butter. (so maybe potato starch) never tried that either. Never for once though it could be my fluid intake. How is the gelatin candy made, I will do this. It's sounds promising to give me some idea of where to start. Also milk being a major part of my diet is it possible that I can't digest milk and I don't even realize it ?

I am looking for his articles on edema now, I will do some reading thank you for the awesom tips I appreciate it!

Well, i would just like to invite you to think about the fluid intake. To my knowledge it is pretty important, I to drank shitloads of OJ and milk when i first found out about Peat, and i noticed during warm summer it worked fairly ok, but during winter it made me seriously messed up. I also noticed very big difference in fluid tolerance when hypo and when not hypo.

Btw, after reading the replies here about myxedema etc i read some stuff about it and found this in the Ray Peat 1996 interview thread:
"It's been known most of this century that in areas where they eat beans as a staple of the diet, such as in China, many types of beans, including soybeans, but in the Andes region, just ordinary beans are the major cause of hypothyroidism, because of various anti-thyroid factors in beans, lentils, and certain nuts -- peanuts, for example.

In eastern Europe, the cabbage and turnip staple diets were major causes of cretinism and chronic goiter and myxedema. Myxedema is the name for one type of hypothyroidism that develops in adults, in which mucousy material forms in the tissues, makes the tongue thicken, the skin gets coarse and inelastic -- but variations of myxedema can cause a lot of strange diseases that are put down to genetic causes more often than hypothyroidism, but you can cure them, in sometimes a week or two, with the right dose of thyroid.

For example, certain types of mitral valve prolapses are just from an accumulation of a mucous-like material in the valve, making it thick and inefficient. Glaucoma in low thyroid involves a swelling and overproduction and increased thickness of the fluids in the eyeball. Some types of Graves' disease, which most doctors think of as hyperthyroidism -- but hypothyroidism, which causes the pituitary to become overactive -- hypothyroidism very predictably tends to cause bulging eyes, because the thyroid stimulating hormone from the pituitary causes a mucousy material to form in the area behind the eyeball, causing a protrusion of the eyeball.

The mucousy materials that are overproduced can also cause blood vessel inefficiency and rigidity, and contributes to things like varicose veins. When this material gets in the joints, it causes cartilage deformities. The old textbooks used to show teenagers with deformed joints that caused the same deviation of the bones -- at the elbow joint especially, and the knee joint especially, with knock knees for example -- but in old people you see the fingers deviating to one side, because the cartilage is getting deformed.

The right balance of thyroid and the youth associated hormones -- progesterone and pregnenolone, and to some extent, DHEA -- will rebalance the production of these mucous-like molecules -- the glycoproteins and mucopolysaccharides, they're called -- and in just a week or two, you can often correct the deformity in a permanent way, so that the joint functions without pain or distortion." - RP

Oh I am definitely into that. I cut that ishhh off already! Today I had 2 liquid meals, 3 solid meals. Still early for me. If I get the need to eat again I will have another small meal before bed.


Oh I am definitely into that. I cut that ishhh off already! Today I had 2 liquid meals, 3 solid meals. Still early for me. If I have the need to eat again I will have another small meal before bed.

I heard peat talking about everything you just wrote in an interview yesterday. I'm experiencing some of this & I definitely don't want my eyes to bulge out! The swelling is "lightly" better last 2 days. Supplementing is next. I'm off winter semester from school so that will give me a lot of time to experiment on myself. I'm also sure hormones are slightly messed up. High dose of progest e is helping me sleep again. I'm not panicky in the morning as much. (Why is this anyway) it's like I'm stressed for nothing. School doesn't help with stress either.

Also where would fluid retention be around the tummy area? Upper or lower. Some days I have that washboard feeling in my tummy & I can see my ab workout paying off, but some days I feel tubby! Lol! I know its not fat, because two days later it's gone. Flat again, I'm sure it's the edema too.

 

[Raypmom]

"The right balance of thyroid and the youth associated hormones -- progesterone and pregnenolone, and to some extent, DHEA -- will rebalance the production of these mucous-like molecules -- the glycoproteins and mucopolysaccharides, they're called -- and in just a week or two, you can often correct the deformity in a permanent way, so that the joint functions without pain or distortion." - RP


It looks like the wait is quite a while for thyroid supplement from farmacia. I did place my order though, will I benefit from desiccated bovine thyroid from ark of wellness ? Anybody here tried it ?

 

[pboy]

this is a very interesting topic, and the first time ive ever seen it discussed here. The descriptions by Peat are so accurate to m y experience. I had problems with retaining water and tried multiple pathways to recover it, this has been a huge focus of mine like the past year. Ive known for a while that it isn't fat, because ive been tracking fluid intake and out and can tell generally how much im retaining. The pressure on the intestines has made me think everything from spleen to gut to liver issues just because the pressure pushes on everything, even bladder (and prostate). At a few random times, id get it all out but then it would start coming back. A huge key is not consuming plain or diluted water, however...milk and OJ are dense enough to be ok, it would be like plain water, a watery soup, and something like plain coffee that might be a culprit. However, even having said that...the muco proteins are a huge factor. I smoke, so one thing ive noticed in the past year is that...as the water retains in bottom torso area, breath becomes pinched off to the point of being much less efficient, and ive also been throwing out a lot more mucus from my throat that never used to happen...I took note though, that the times I did manage to get the water out, breath would be clear again, and no mucus (or very little) would ever come into throat, so I knew the smoking wasn't causing anything itself (it turns out it was actually helping me throw out these glyco muco proteins). That quote by Peat about how the youth hormones overcome this tendency makes perfect sense. For me, I found out it was actually vitamin A deficiency, and therefore probably progesterone deficiency. Now I have it under control, but I have to consume quite a bit more vit A each day then I realized. I noticed your diet and probably a lot of Peat followers don't include enough vitamin A. I used to eat sweet potatoes and carrots on occasion, but my stool the next day would be orange! So I know the carotene wasn't even absorbed. Upon research, basically any fiber and even starch prevent its absorption, so to really get carotene you either have to eat a lot of plant material, like many times more than is listed, or actually
juice them. Red palm oil is almost perfect because of its high absorbability. When I eat even a lot, ive experimented, as with carrot juice, stool is never colored at all, so its being absorbed. I drink over 2 quarts of whole milk a day, so that's like 60%+ of preformed vit A alone, and with all the thyroid support, even up to about 3-400% carotene a day is acceptable. I honestly think you need to eat more vitamin A, and when you do those muco proteins will likely go away pretty quick. For me, when I experimented and ate a few tsp of palm oil over the course of a day, I was breathing significantly smoother and deeper, and it seemed like a lot of pressure came out of my whole torso, within 1 day, and mucus produced or instigated by smoking was reduced to like...25% or less than what it was. Im not sure which source or however you want to get vitamin A, but take note of it, and what I said about absorbability and amounts above. Wish you well

(with red palm oil, the good stuff is in the liquid part and the offensive stuff is in the solid part, so a good way to use it is to let it get warm and separate, then only use the liquid part on top...the solid part has phytoestrogens and a kind of not so good taste, whereas the liquid part has a pleasant sweet taste and no plant inhibitor molecules. Its still almost 50% saturated, and I think only as a small supplemental amount its fine for hormones still, but you wouldn't want to push it more then you need)

 

[Raypmom]

this is a very interesting topic, and the first time ive ever seen it discussed here. The descriptions by Peat are so accurate to m y experience. I had problems with retaining water and tried multiple pathways to recover it, this has been a huge focus of mine like the past year. Ive known for a while that it isn't fat, because ive been tracking fluid intake and out and can tell generally how much im retaining. The pressure on the intestines has made me think everything from spleen to gut to liver issues just because the pressure pushes on everything, even bladder (and prostate). At a few random times, id get it all out but then it would start coming back. A huge key is not consuming plain or diluted water, however...milk and OJ are dense enough to be ok, it would be like plain water, a watery soup, and something like plain coffee that might be a culprit. However, even having said that...the muco proteins are a huge factor. I smoke, so one thing ive noticed in the past year is that...as the water retains in bottom torso area, breath becomes pinched off to the point of being much less efficient, and ive also been throwing out a lot more mucus from my throat that never used to happen...I took note though, that the times I did manage to get the water out, breath would be clear again, and no mucus (or very little) would ever come into throat, so I knew the smoking wasn't causing anything itself (it turns out it was actually helping me throw out these glyco muco proteins). That quote by Peat about how the youth hormones overcome this tendency makes perfect sense. For me, I found out it was actually vitamin A deficiency, and therefore probably progesterone deficiency. Now I have it under control, but I have to consume quite a bit more vit A each day then I realized. I noticed your diet and probably a lot of Peat followers don't include enough vitamin A. I used to eat sweet potatoes and carrots on occasion, but my stool the next day would be orange! So I know the carotene wasn't even absorbed. Upon research, basically any fiber and even starch prevent its absorption, so to really get carotene you either have to eat a lot of plant material, like many times more than is listed, or actually
juice them. Red palm oil is almost perfect because of its high absorbability. When I eat even a lot, ive experimented, as with carrot juice, stool is never colored at all, so its being absorbed. I drink over 2 quarts of whole milk a day, so that's like 60%+ of preformed vit A alone, and with all the thyroid support, even up to about 3-400% carotene a day is acceptable. I honestly think you need to eat more vitamin A, and when you do those muco proteins will likely go away pretty quick. For me, when I experimented and ate a few tsp of palm oil over the course of a day, I was breathing significantly smoother and deeper, and it seemed like a lot of pressure came out of my whole torso, within 1 day, and mucus produced or instigated by smoking was reduced to like...25% or less than what it was. Im not sure which source or however you want to get vitamin A, but take note of it, and what I said about absorbability and amounts above. Wish you well

(with red palm oil, the good stuff is in the liquid part and the offensive stuff is in the solid part, so a good way to use it is to let it get warm and separate, then only use the liquid part on top...the solid part has phytoestrogens and a kind of not so good taste, whereas the liquid part has a pleasant sweet taste and no plant inhibitor molecules. Its still almost 50% saturated, and I think only as a small supplemental amount its fine for hormones still, but you wouldn't want to push it more then you need)

@Pboy
I did not read your full reply as I am rushing out the door now, but when I do I know I will have more questions so I hope you stick around. I have a question now, and it may be a silly question but I do get points however, I did start this thread LOL so here it goes…

How does the body get rid of this fluid once the process begins ? Is there several ways aside from urine? If you answered this question in your reply, then never mind. But I didn't want to lose you once I saw you were online!

 

[pboy]

urine mostly but surprisingly evaporation and breath removes a lot, like with a good metabolism multiple liters a day, and technically stool has a little water in it. Like you might have a few times, or a day, with a lot of urine, but most of it you wont notice