haidut

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This is a remarkable study, which once again implicates extreme stress in the pathology of mental health disorders, specifically anxiety and PTSD. Just a few days ago I posted a study showing a high cortisol (C) / testosterone (T) ratio is likely causative in PTSD. People with high C/T ratio also happen to have elevated adrenaline as cortisol and adrenaline promoted each other’s synthesis and release. As such, the study below is not surprising. What is surprising is that even a single dose of the adrenaline-blocking drug (beta blocker) propranolol was able to “erase” the emotional aspect of traumatic memories and as such reverse the anxiety and PTSD associated with them. The cognitive portion (e.g. the memory itself) was not affected, but the fearful/traumatic reaction to it was removed. As the authors say themselves, it appears every mental disorder may be amenable to such treatment. The results are almost too good to believe, but not if you know that stress is the fundamental cause of all disease. And last but not least, sleep was required in order for the effect to take hold. If people were given the drug and then their fear was “re-challenged” the same day then they still reacted with anxiety. However, if they were allowed to “sleep on it” overnight, the next day the fear was gone. My guess is that the adrenaline blockade removes the fear stimulus, but in order for that to become embedded into the brain’s structure, sleep is needed as such consolidations are only known to happen when the brain emits beta and gamma waves (sleep, meditation, etc).

An Abrupt Transformation of Phobic Behavior After a Post-Retrieval Amnesic Agent. - PubMed - NCBI
Pharmacologically induced amnesia for learned fear is time and sleep dependent

“…A single 40-mg dose of oral propranolol, judiciously timed, constitutes an outside-the-box yet highly promising treatment for anxiety disorders, and perhaps for posttraumatic stress disorder as well, Marieke Soeter, PhD, said at the annual congress of the European College of Neuropsychopharmacology. “

“…“It looks like permanent fear erasure. You can never say that something is erased, but we have not been able to get it back,” she said. “Propranolol achieves selective erasure: It targets the emotional component, but knowledge is intact. They know what happened, but they aren’t scared anymore. The fear association is affected, but not the innate fear response to a threat stimulus, so it doesn’t alter reactions to potentially dangerous situations, which is important. If there is a bomb, they still know to run away from it.” “

“…Most recently, she and a coinvestigator have been working to pin down the precise conditions under which memory reconsolidation can be targeted to extinguish fear memories. They have shown in a 30-subject study that the process is both time- and sleep-dependent. The propranolol must be given within roughly an hour before to 1 hour after therapeutic reactivation of the fear memory to be effective. And sleep is an absolute necessity: When subjects were rechallenged 12 hours after memory reactivation and administration of propranolol earlier on the same day, with no opportunity for sleep, there was no therapeutic effect: The disturbing fear memory was elicited. However, when subjects were rechallenged 12 hours after taking propranolol the previous day – that is, after a night’s sleep – the fear memory was gone (Nat Commun. 2018 Apr 3;9[1]:1316. doi: 10.1038/s41467-018-03659-1).”

“Postretrieval amnesia requires sleep to happen. Sleep may be the final and necessary link to prevent the process of reconsolidation,” Dr. Soeter said. It’s still unclear, however, how much sleep is required. Perhaps a nap will turn out to be sufficient, she said.” Colleagues at the University of Amsterdam are now using single-dose propranolol-based therapy in patients with a wide range of phobias. “The effects are pretty amazing,” Dr. Soeter said.Everything is treatable. It’s almost too good to be true, but these are our findings.”
 
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Makrosky

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I think Ray has spoken facorably about propanolol to a user who asked him about ways to decreasr stress/anxiety. He posted the email a couple of weeks ago or so.
 

Makrosky

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How safe is propanolol btw? Has anyone tried ir or is willing to try?
 

James b

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I think Ray has spoken facorably about propanolol to a user who asked him about ways to decreasr stress/anxiety. He posted the email a couple of weeks ago or so.
Would be really cool if you could post the link to that - really interested! Cheers mate.
 

Collden

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Take beta-blocker before walking up to and asking out beautiful stranger -> approach anxiety permanently eliminated? Sounds too good to be true.
 
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Would be really cool if you could post the link to that - really interested! Cheers mate.


Think that was me. The email said: "I’ve seen increased sugar, and/or calcium, and/or magnesium, and/or vitamin D, and/or vitamin B6, and/or other B vitamins, and/or pregnenolone, thyroid, progesterone, testosterone, relieve it. Sometimes a beta-blocker like propranolol gives immediate relief."
 

haidut

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Sounds too good to be true.

That's what the study authors said as well, yet these are their findings and they stand by them.
"..“The effects are pretty amazing,Dr. Soeter said.Everything is treatable. It’s almost too good to be true, but these are our findings.”"
 

haidut

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@Makrosky @James b @ecstatichamster @KellyP
If adrenaline is indeed the culprit, then the drug clonidine should also work. Ray calls it "the antistress drug" in one of his articles and even though it lowers adrenaline levels instead of blocking the beta receptors, the effects should be the same.
 

haidut

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How about uridine or inosine?

That I don't know as there is no data on how much of these is needed to match the effects of beta blockers or clonidine.
 

Hugh Johnson

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It's not like PTSD coming from singular incidents is hard to cure. If you can access the me more, any competent hypnotist can remove the emotion in minutes.

Only CPTSD and suppressed memories are in any way difficult.
 

Beefcake

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How safe is propanolol btw? Has anyone tried ir or is willing to try?

I’ve used it both in low and high dose. High dose I don’t like the effects. It makes you very calm in a strange way and lowers pulse quite dramatically. You get a bit sleepy. You feel a bit like a calm lake of water. Low dose its subtle and just makes you chilled out. Dunno safety long term or its effects on hormones but short term treatment I think it’s very safe. It’s quite commonly prescribed. Both my dad and sister has it. My dad has high blood pressure and my sister got it for raceing heart shes taking thyroid medications and that combination is quite common for people who gets a bit hyper thyroid on their meds. I think the emotional stress of PTSD is so connected to the fight or flight mode respons in the brain. That respons is basically in overdrive and on edge all the time. Propanolol just interferes with that since the signal of adrenaline is probably what initiates that whole response. I’ve had panic attacks previously and I would suspect propanolol would be very effective and safer then benzodiasepines which are more commonly prescribed for that.
 

Momado965

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Nice man @haidut! Which of your products or a combination of them can replicate the effects of the drug usef in the study?
 

olive

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It’s metabolically damaging, don’t make propranolol use a habit.
 

Collden

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Well good thing this study suggests you only need to use it once.

All those people who repeatedly take beta blockers every time they have a music performance or presentation... They'd actually only need to take it the first time they're up against a particular stressful situation.
 
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Well good thing this study suggests you only need to use it once.

All those people who repeatedly take beta blockers every time they have a music performance or presentation... They'd actually only need to take it the first time they're up against a particular stressful situation.


The protocol I think is to recall the bad memory while you’re on the propanolol and really feel it with terrible emotion. Then you need to go to bed and sleep. That’s really it.

The memory remains but the emotional content has drained.
 
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