Another Ex-Keto/Carnivore here, but I've been 'Peating' for 2 years now.

[pd001]

I'm in my early 30's

Been doing Keto for more than 5 years
I've quit Keto due to having an unbearable liver inflamation
Then got back my carb tolerance after a year of quitting Keto

Now I'm better than I was (mentally & physically)
I'm also closer to how lean I was when I was doing Carnivore

Now my problem lies on my eye bags and the dark circles around it
I think it's from the supplementation of niacinamide & aspirin
It's still something that I have to isolate
But I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it

I wanted to join this forum so I can share and ask questions
Regarding: supplements, drugs, life style practices, and anything in-between
But probably I'll just be a lurker
Since I don't have the expertise in such things

I've also been checking this forum from time to time since 2018
But had only decided to create an account just now

Peace be with you all.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I'm in my early 30's

Been doing Keto for more than 5 years
I've quit Keto due to having an unbearable liver inflamation
Then got back my carb tolerance after a year of quitting Keto

Now I'm better than I was (mentally & physically)
I'm also closer to how lean I was when I was doing Carnivore

Now my problem lies on my eye bags and the dark circles around it
I think it's from the supplementation of niacinamide & aspirin
It's still something that I have to isolate
But I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it

I wanted to join this forum so I can share and ask questions
Regarding: supplements, drugs, life style practices, and anything in-between
But probably I'll just be a lurker
Since I don't have the expertise in such things

I've also been checking this forum from time to time since 2018
But had only decided to create an account just now

Peace be with you all.

Welcome pd001! I only tried keto for a few months so I am familiar, but I didn't do any damage. I must congratulate your transitioned from it to "Peat" and still staying slim. You must have armed yourself with enough knowledge to stay away from the ice cream!

The puzzle piece I will add is that aspirin is a histamine liberator, which can cause the puffy eyes. Try dissolving your aspirin in water and add some sugar, which is a natural anti-histamine, coffee too. Have them both with aspirin. I remember seeing this Ray Peat e-mail exchange a few months ago and found it for you.....

"Like the dark circles, a chronically plugged nostril is suggestive of an allergy, and it usually varies according to the intensity of the intestinal irritation of undigested food. Keeping notes on what you eat, you might notice increased stuffiness during the night after particular foods were eaten, though with some foods the congestion can take a couple of days to develop. Prolonged endurance exercise will usually slow the pulse because of adaptive inhibition of the thyroid. I have seen some people with the dark circles, fatigue, and other symptoms that stopped as soon as they stopped their daily running." -Ray Peat

 

[pd001]

Thanks @Rinse & rePeat, I'm lactose intolerant and could only handle cheese as far as diary products are concerned.
Though I can take lactase enzymes to off-set the unwanted issues I experience from consuming diary products (ie. getting nauseated).
As with staying slim, my background is in athletics so understanding macros is second nature to me (I'm the typical 'bro' for short).
Though I felt bad on those people that I've preached Keto so hard, that now they're zealots in that way of dietary practice.

As with dissolving aspiring in water w/ sugar, does that make a difference if I'm already consuming it with food?

And with the dark circles/allergies, my diet is pretty much the same with other forum members here: potatoes, rice, ground beef, cheese, carrots, sugar, coffee, oranges.
But in regards to daily running (which I don't do but I do a lot of physical activity everyday) seems to make sense in relation to thyroid health.
Though I don't do anything strenuous and only pick certain days when I'd do it for the week.
But still I don't think it's the physical activity that's causing it (maybe if you're doing it to the extreme), 'cause I've got friends that regularly trains for marathons.
And they just look normal.

For now I think it's the niacinamide, 'cause I've read from a post here about taking tmg along with it to counterbalance what niacinamide does.
So I'll give the tmg a shot and see how it goes.

 

[Solboy]

I’ve read dark circles can be caused by low cortisol.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Welcome pd001! I only tried keto for a few months so I am familiar, but I didn't do any damage. I must congratulate your transitioned from it to "Peat" and still staying slim. You must have armed yourself with enough knowledge to stay away from the ice cream!

The puzzle piece I will add is that aspirin is a histamine liberator, which can cause the puffy eyes. Try dissolving your aspirin in water and add some sugar, which is a natural anti-histamine, coffee too. Have them both with aspirin. I remember seeing this Ray Peat e-mail exchange a few months ago and found it for you.....

"Like the dark circles, a chronically plugged nostril is suggestive of an allergy, and it usually varies according to the intensity of the intestinal irritation of undigested food. Keeping notes on what you eat, you might notice increased stuffiness during the night after particular foods were eaten, though with some foods the congestion can take a couple of days to develop. Prolonged endurance exercise will usually slow the pulse because of adaptive inhibition of the thyroid. I have seen some people with the dark circles, fatigue, and other symptoms that stopped as soon as they stopped their daily running." -Ray Peat

I don't know if taking aspirin away from food would make a difference. I think the only thing I would say is that histamine issues are different from person to person. Oranges and ground meats are very high in histamines. You could take an anti-histamine like a 12-hour Claratin for a couple of days and see if it makes a difference. If it does then you know histamines are a culprit. I cringed when you said your friends are keto fanatics. They must be jealous watching you eat ice cream and luscious fruits while they are shoveling in more meat. That is the joy of "Peating" you can eat almost anything you want.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

One advice I can give you: if something doesn't work in the short term, if you don't feel good doing it: don't stick with it, just drop it.
There is this idea around this forum of embracing suffering, of pushing through until your body / organ heals. But it may end up never working.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

One advice I can give you: if something doesn't work in the short term, if you don't feel good doing it: don't stick with it, just drop it.
There is this idea around this forum of embracing suffering, of pushing through until your body / organ heals. But it may end up never working.

+1

 

[macguffin]

I came to Peating in mid 2020 after doing keto/carnivore for almost 3 years. At first, I felt amazing with the re-introduction of carbs (the keto people, after all, are certainly wrong about carbs being bad for you). It felt like a fog was lifted as I exited the stressful state of fat metabolism.

However, this honeymoon phase only lasted for a short time for me. As time has gone on while "Peating" my health has only gotten worse and worse and I have started to develop new symptoms that I NEVER had before (pain and swelling in my liver, yellow eyes, itchy skin, shrunken testicles, diminished libido, worse brain fog, worse joint pain, etc.).

If you hang around this forum long enough, you will notice that my story is not unique, although many here don't seem to want to admit it to themselves. I also didn't want to admit it to myself. I see the same members posting over and over again with new and worsening symptoms. Personally, I've seen almost zero posts from people reporting that anything has gotten better. I no longer think this is a coincidence.

I believe that Ray Peat has some interesting insights and I applaud him for being a courageous thinker. But if you follow the core "Ray Peat" diet that many here espouse (lots of dairy, fruit, fruit juice, OJ, eggs, liver, oysters, etc.), I am becoming more and more convinced that you are going to destroy yourself. That is certainly what has been happening to me and my wife over the last ~1.5 years and, as you will see, it is what is happening to many of the members here who only continue to get worse and worse. (This reality is masked by the "embrace suffering and push your body" attitude that GreekDemiGod highlighted). Both our devolution was speeded up because we took Accutane + SSRIs several years ago and my liver was already in bad shape from those giga doses of vitamin A.

The reason for this, I am becoming more and more convinced, is that "Vitamin A" is not a vitamin at all, but a very destructive toxin that builds up in the liver and destroys your health. I was first turned on to this idea by the work of Grant Genereux (check out this post to find the link to his e-book). And the work of Dr. Garret Smith building on Genereux's work. They make the case far better than I can, so I will just point you in their direction (links at the end). The reason I bring this up is because dark circles under the eyes can be an early sign of liver issues, and if you're eating RP you are eating high vitamin A (hepatotoxic).

I've recently switched to a low vitamin A diet (so I ditched the milk, the eggs, the OJ, the liver) and I ALREADY feel better. It's nuts. Check out this thread for many such similar testimonies - personally, I have NOT found testimonies like that to how "Peating" has helped people's health. Quite the contrary in fact.

Here is Dr. Garret Smith on how Vitamin A toxicity is at epidemic levels (literally) :
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_HU7FwxBU


And here is Dr. Garret Smith doing a "case study" on Christ Masterjohn and how he exhibits all the signs of Vitamin A toxicity (Chris eats a diet very similar to RP style and this one was very eye opening to me):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Jn86UaFPc&t=1s

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

....

I came to Peating in mid 2020 after doing keto/carnivore for almost 3 years. At first, I felt amazing with the re-introduction of carbs (the keto people, after all, are certainly wrong about carbs being bad for you). It felt like a fog was lifted as I exited the stressful state of fat metabolism.

However, this honeymoon phase only lasted for a short time for me. As time has gone on while "Peating" my health has only gotten worse and worse and I have started to develop new symptoms that I NEVER had before (pain and swelling in my liver, yellow eyes, itchy skin, shrunken testicles, diminished libido, worse brain fog, worse joint pain, etc.).

If you hang around this forum long enough, you will notice that my story is not unique, although many here don't seem to want to admit it to themselves. I also didn't want to admit it to myself. I see the same members posting over and over again with new and worsening symptoms. Personally, I've seen almost zero posts from people reporting that anything has gotten better. I no longer think this is a coincidence.

I believe that Ray Peat has some interesting insights and I applaud him for being a courageous thinker. But if you follow the core "Ray Peat" diet that many here espouse (lots of dairy, fruit, fruit juice, OJ, eggs, liver, oysters, etc.), I am becoming more and more convinced that you are going to destroy yourself. That is certainly what has been happening to me and my wife over the last ~1.5 years and, as you will see, it is what is happening to many of the members here who only continue to get worse and worse. (This reality is masked by the "embrace suffering and push your body" attitude that GreekDemiGod highlighted). Both our devolution was speeded up because we took Accutane + SSRIs several years ago and my liver was already in bad shape from those giga doses of vitamin A.

The reason for this, I am becoming more and more convinced, is that "Vitamin A" is not a vitamin at all, but a very destructive toxin that builds up in the liver and destroys your health. I was first turned on to this idea by the work of Grant Genereux (check out this post to find the link to his e-book). And the work of Dr. Garret Smith building on Genereux's work. They make the case far better than I can, so I will just point you in their direction (links at the end). The reason I bring this up is because dark circles under the eyes can be an early sign of liver issues, and if you're eating RP you are eating high vitamin A (hepatotoxic).

I've recently switched to a low vitamin A diet (so I ditched the milk, the eggs, the OJ, the liver) and I ALREADY feel better. It's nuts. Check out this thread for many such similar testimonies - personally, I have NOT found testimonies like that to how "Peating" has helped people's health. Quite the contrary in fact.

Here is Dr. Garret Smith on how Vitamin A toxicity is at epidemic levels (literally) :
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_HU7FwxBU


And here is Dr. Garret Smith doing a "case study" on Christ Masterjohn and how he exhibits all the signs of Vitamin A toxicity (Chris eats a diet very similar to RP style and this one was very eye opening to me):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Jn86UaFPc&t=1s

See now my experience is the opposite, but I didn't push anything either. I didn't add in the sugar at first, just more dairy and cut out PUFA's. I think coming in grain free for a couple of years with no health problems gave me an advantage too. I have been at it gor 5 years now and I don't get coffee headaches anymore, if I skip a day, like I use too. I am a true blonde and don't have to use sunscreen anymore and I am the healthiest person I know at 58 with tons of energy. I look better this past 5 years than I did 6 years ago. Ray Peat is right but everybody tweaks what he says eating more than the 3 to 6 ounces of liver a week he recommends and throwing in fun suppliments to try. I sometimes get called called an Ray Peat fanatic and that's fine by my, I would rather be called that that feeling like crap doing my own thing.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I'm in my early 30's

Been doing Keto for more than 5 years
I've quit Keto due to having an unbearable liver inflamation
Then got back my carb tolerance after a year of quitting Keto

Now I'm better than I was (mentally & physically)
I'm also closer to how lean I was when I was doing Carnivore

Now my problem lies on my eye bags and the dark circles around it
I think it's from the supplementation of niacinamide & aspirin
It's still something that I have to isolate
But I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it

I wanted to join this forum so I can share and ask questions
Regarding: supplements, drugs, life style practices, and anything in-between
But probably I'll just be a lurker
Since I don't have the expertise in such things

I've also been checking this forum from time to time since 2018
But had only decided to create an account just now

Peace be with you all.

I don't know if this RP quote might be to your eye bag point, and WECOME!.....


"Like the dark circles, a chronically plugged nostril is suggestive of an allergy, and it usually varies according to the intensity of the intestinal irritation of undigested food. Keeping notes on what you eat, you might notice increased stuffiness during the night after particular foods were eaten, though with some foods the congestion can take a couple of days to develop. Prolonged endurance exercise will usually slow the pulse because of adaptive inhibition of the thyroid. I have seen some people with the dark circles, fatigue, and other symptoms that stopped as soon as they stopped their daily running." -Ray Peat

 

[pd001]

@Solboy - Does having a stress free life 'cause the dark circles?
@GreekDemiGod - I'll keep that in mind.
@macguffin
- Though I've already thought of Garet as a bit of a quack back then, but maybe there's some truth to it.
- It's an interesting point, 'cause I always eat: liver, carrots, ojs, cheeses (I'll take my time to understand the comments in that thread).
- Prior to Peating, I'm already eating organ meats almost everyday.
- Then Peating happened and started adding: carrots, ojs, niacinamide, aspirin, b1, vitamin-e, etc.
- But still to this day I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it, but I feel like I need it, 'cause it also counters-off the negative effects of meat consumption.
- To me, what got me up to speed with my carb tolerance was b1 & niacinamide.
- Maybe I went too far with the niacinamide and ended up with this 'overmethylation' as they say.
- But as far as vitamin-a is concerned, if you're metabolism is high then your threshold for vitamin-a goes higher as well.
- I think people that are having issues with vitamin-a are those who have low metabolism.
- And as far as not seeing people improve on Peating, the only problem I'm seeing with others is not counting their macros (and have a very low muscle mass).
- Also eating foods that they don't agree on just yet, like citrus fruits giving them skin issues.
- 'Cause back then I get very noticeable histamine issues with fruits & coffee, to the point where my chest & throat tightens up.
- Though I'm not saying to stick through it, 'cause I gave up on milk and just went with cheeses instead.
@Rinse & rePeat - I think the Ray Peat quote is a bit too simplistic, but at the same time it makes sense (doesn't resonate to me though).

Asides from the dark circles, I never felt great on supplementing vitamin-k2, I only got arrhythmias from taking it.
So maybe that adds up, low vitamin-k + aspirin + vitamin-e = the dark circles on my eyes?
But then, it could also be the vitamin-a or the niacinamide (and not balancing-it-off with tmg).

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Solboy - Does having a stress free life 'cause the dark circles?
@GreekDemiGod - I'll keep that in mind.
@macguffin
- Though I've already thought of Garet as a bit of a quack back then, but maybe there's some truth to it.
- It's an interesting point, 'cause I always eat: liver, carrots, ojs, cheeses (I'll take my time to understand the comments in that thread).
- Prior to Peating, I'm already eating organ meats almost everyday.
- Then Peating happened and started adding: carrots, ojs, niacinamide, aspirin, b1, vitamin-e, etc.
- But still to this day I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it, but I feel like I need it, 'cause it also counters-off the negative effects of meat consumption.
- To me, what got me up to speed with my carb tolerance was b1 & niacinamide.
- Maybe I went too far with the niacinamide and ended up with this 'overmethylation' as they say.
- But as far as vitamin-a is concerned, if you're metabolism is high then your threshold for vitamin-a goes higher as well.
- I think people that are having issues with vitamin-a are those who have low metabolism.
- And as far as not seeing people improve on Peating, the only problem I'm seeing with others is not counting their macros (and have a very low muscle mass).
- Also eating foods that they don't agree on just yet, like citrus fruits giving them skin issues.
- 'Cause back then I get very noticeable histamine issues with fruits & coffee, to the point where my chest & throat tightens up.
- Though I'm not saying to stick through it, 'cause I gave up on milk and just went with cheeses instead.
@Rinse & rePeat - I think the Ray Peat quote is a bit too simplistic, but at the same time it makes sense (doesn't resonate to me though).

Asides from the dark circles, I never felt great on supplementing vitamin-k2, I only got arrhythmias from taking it.
So maybe that adds up, low vitamin-k + aspirin + vitamin-e = the dark circles on my eyes?
But then, it could also be the vitamin-a or the niacinamide (and not balancing-it-off with tmg).

I think supplimenting anything, as Ray Peat says, is problematic. It works until it doesn't.

 

[RenaissanceMan]

Why would dark circles be caused by low stress/cortisol? Sounds counterintuitive.

IMO it's a sign that your thyroid is suppressed in some way which is preventing you from getting deep, restorative sleep.

How is your sleep quality?

 

[youngsinatra]

I came to Peating in mid 2020 after doing keto/carnivore for almost 3 years. At first, I felt amazing with the re-introduction of carbs (the keto people, after all, are certainly wrong about carbs being bad for you). It felt like a fog was lifted as I exited the stressful state of fat metabolism.

However, this honeymoon phase only lasted for a short time for me. As time has gone on while "Peating" my health has only gotten worse and worse and I have started to develop new symptoms that I NEVER had before (pain and swelling in my liver, yellow eyes, itchy skin, shrunken testicles, diminished libido, worse brain fog, worse joint pain, etc.).

If you hang around this forum long enough, you will notice that my story is not unique, although many here don't seem to want to admit it to themselves. I also didn't want to admit it to myself. I see the same members posting over and over again with new and worsening symptoms. Personally, I've seen almost zero posts from people reporting that anything has gotten better. I no longer think this is a coincidence.

I believe that Ray Peat has some interesting insights and I applaud him for being a courageous thinker. But if you follow the core "Ray Peat" diet that many here espouse (lots of dairy, fruit, fruit juice, OJ, eggs, liver, oysters, etc.), I am becoming more and more convinced that you are going to destroy yourself. That is certainly what has been happening to me and my wife over the last ~1.5 years and, as you will see, it is what is happening to many of the members here who only continue to get worse and worse. (This reality is masked by the "embrace suffering and push your body" attitude that GreekDemiGod highlighted). Both our devolution was speeded up because we took Accutane + SSRIs several years ago and my liver was already in bad shape from those giga doses of vitamin A.

The reason for this, I am becoming more and more convinced, is that "Vitamin A" is not a vitamin at all, but a very destructive toxin that builds up in the liver and destroys your health. I was first turned on to this idea by the work of Grant Genereux (check out this post to find the link to his e-book). And the work of Dr. Garret Smith building on Genereux's work. They make the case far better than I can, so I will just point you in their direction (links at the end). The reason I bring this up is because dark circles under the eyes can be an early sign of liver issues, and if you're eating RP you are eating high vitamin A (hepatotoxic).

I've recently switched to a low vitamin A diet (so I ditched the milk, the eggs, the OJ, the liver) and I ALREADY feel better. It's nuts. Check out this thread for many such similar testimonies - personally, I have NOT found testimonies like that to how "Peating" has helped people's health. Quite the contrary in fact.

Here is Dr. Garret Smith on how Vitamin A toxicity is at epidemic levels (literally) :
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_HU7FwxBU


And here is Dr. Garret Smith doing a "case study" on Christ Masterjohn and how he exhibits all the signs of Vitamin A toxicity (Chris eats a diet very similar to RP style and this one was very eye opening to me):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Jn86UaFPc&t=1s

+ 1

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Why would dark circles be caused by low stress/cortisol? Sounds counterintuitive.

IMO it's a sign that your thyroid is suppressed in some way which is preventing you from getting deep, restorative sleep.

How is your sleep quality?

My sleep quality is like a child's, great dreams and deep sleep. Of course Progest-E has been a part of that. I only use it at night, which is when RP says stress is at it's highest. I go to sleep on my own, but on those extra stressful night when I wake up at the usual 3:00, I just put a little drop of progest-E on my wrist and zonk right out solid. Raw honey or a baby aspirin was really good to get me back sleep too, before Progest-E.

 

[RenaissanceMan]

Here is Dr. Garret Smith on how Vitamin A toxicity is at epidemic levels (literally) :
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_HU7FwxBU


And here is Dr. Garret Smith doing a "case study" on Christ Masterjohn and how he exhibits all the signs of Vitamin A toxicity (Chris eats a diet very similar to RP style and this one was very eye opening to me):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Jn86UaFPc&t=1s

That guy looks extremely unhealthy.

 

[Beastmode]

I'm in my early 30's

Been doing Keto for more than 5 years
I've quit Keto due to having an unbearable liver inflamation
Then got back my carb tolerance after a year of quitting Keto

Now I'm better than I was (mentally & physically)
I'm also closer to how lean I was when I was doing Carnivore

Now my problem lies on my eye bags and the dark circles around it
I think it's from the supplementation of niacinamide & aspirin
It's still something that I have to isolate
But I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it

I wanted to join this forum so I can share and ask questions
Regarding: supplements, drugs, life style practices, and anything in-between
But probably I'll just be a lurker
Since I don't have the expertise in such things

I've also been checking this forum from time to time since 2018
But had only decided to create an account just now

Peace be with you all.

If you're doing the basics well, etc I would say going to bed earlier can make a big difference.

That's if you're not the typical person staying past 10 or 11. Lights out here at 8:30-8:45.

 

[macguffin]

That guy looks extremely unhealthy.

Yeah, I had the same thought when I first saw this. But in that video he's only been detoxing vitamin A, himself, for I believe a little over a year. Idk - I don't think Peat is the healthiest looking (or sounding, given the long pauses and slow speech, etc.) guy either so seems like a bit of a wash to me. The info is still very interesting. Here's the original RPforum post re: vitamin A toxicity that stirred up interesting discussion back in the day, clearly.

 

[redsun]

I'm in my early 30's

Been doing Keto for more than 5 years
I've quit Keto due to having an unbearable liver inflamation
Then got back my carb tolerance after a year of quitting Keto

Now I'm better than I was (mentally & physically)
I'm also closer to how lean I was when I was doing Carnivore

Now my problem lies on my eye bags and the dark circles around it
I think it's from the supplementation of niacinamide & aspirin
It's still something that I have to isolate
But I think it's the niacinamide that's causing it

I wanted to join this forum so I can share and ask questions
Regarding: supplements, drugs, life style practices, and anything in-between
But probably I'll just be a lurker
Since I don't have the expertise in such things

I've also been checking this forum from time to time since 2018
But had only decided to create an account just now

Peace be with you all.

Niacinamide steals methyl groups which can become quite detrimental to liver function and detoxification over time. Especially considering history of liver problems, you should not use methyl depleters like niacinamide. How much do you take?

 

[JKX]

That guy looks extremely unhealthy.

And quite obviously hypothyroid.