Abdominal Fat Is A Phase Folliwing The End Of Calorie Restriction

[Kelj]

I pretty much agree with that list, that's definitely a good list of healthfulness. But even by their own admission on the eating disorder website, it can take up to 6 yrs to check all those boxes that you listed. I'm not interested in waiting 6 yrs of suffering from brain fog, low morning energy, weight gain, and other hypothyroid/health issues when some things can accelerate the process. There's a big difference from building up health, than maintaining it. It's a lot easier to maintain health than it is to build it, with that in mind, it's a lot more plausible to maintain health without supplements than it is to build without them. Or at least it's gonna take a lot longer. I strongly believe that if you know what you are doing, you can turn health around in a major way in months or even weeks. Certainly not a full recovery, to be sure, but definitely improvements. Yeah I'm not healthy yet but I'd be arrogant if I claimed I know what I'm doing lol. This stuff is complex, and takes a lot to figure out.

I really want it to all work out for you. Really.
For the record, I saw improvements immediately, and was completely restored in two years.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

This may be really unpopular, but metformin does help with NOT gaining fat. It may even help someone lose fat.

If you've gained 100lbs, you should really give metformin a try.

Metformin is something to take if you are being sedentary and have a huge carb loaded meal. Take some metformin and it won't get stored as fat. You don't have to take it all the time. But every time you can shut down fat storage, it adds up to less weight gain.

My opinion is that we can be flexible. Why can't we incorporate other things? I've experimented with intermittent fasting, low carb, fasted cardio, metformin etc, and they all have their usefulness.

The key is not to be an extremist with any one of these ideas.

Metformin is a toxin, though. The reason why metfomin causes weight loss is because it makes your cells waste glucose, turning it into lactate. It's like simulating starvation, at the cellular level. The fact that it damages the Complex 1 part of the electro transport chain, which is where most of the ATP is produced, is a very good indication of how dangerous this substance can be.

Also, carbs don't get stored as fat after a carb-heavy meal that easily. Unless one really overeats on them, only between 0,1% and 5% percent of carbs turn into fat, and there is also the fact that making fat from carbs uses up a lot of energy, so very little fat is made from carbs at a normal intake.

If a certain pattern or drug has been shown to cause lots of bad effects, why engage in/ use it?

 

[Inspired]

Metformin is a toxin, though. The reason why metfomin causes weight loss is because it makes your cells waste glucose, turning it into lactate. It's like simulating starvation, at the cellular level. The fact that it damages the Complex 1 part of the electro transport chain, which is where most of the ATP is produced, is a very good indication of how dangerous this substance can be.

Also, carbs don't get stored as fat after a carb-heavy meal that easily. Unless one really overeats on them, only between 0,1% and 5% percent of carbs turn into fat, and there is also the fact that making fat from carbs uses up a lot of energy, so very little fat is made from carbs at a normal intake.

If a certain pattern or drug has been shown to cause lots of bad effects, why engage in/ use it?

I should have said a "huge mixed meal".

Is metformin toxic? Not really.

Metformin works. What's worse or more toxic: being 100 pounds overweight and gaining more, or taking metformin and maintaining or losing weight?

At a certain point, you can't rely on being able to magically eat your way out of your weight problem.

Sometimes you must shed huge amounts of FAT before you can heal and do a Peat style diet. To accomplish that, you can incorporate some of the demonized methods.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I should have said a "huge mixed meal".

Is metformin toxic? Not really.

Metformin works. What's worse or more toxic: being 100 pounds overweight and gaining more, or taking metformin and maintaining or losing weight?

At a certain point, you can't rely on being able to magically eat your way out of your weight problem.

Sometimes you must shed huge amounts of FAT before you can heal and do a Peat style diet. To accomplish that, you can incorporate some of the demonized methods.

Okay. Mixing a lot of fat and carbs, especially if the carb source is starch, may cause some temporary hyperglycemia.

Being overweight, as I see it, is better than taking metformin. Metformin is a toxin, if it wasn't, it wouldn't contribute to lactic acidosis. The fact that it damages mitochondria means that if you lose weight, as soon as you start eating well again, you will gain it back due to the damaged metabolism. If one has a lot of PUFA, then buring all that fat will destroy the person's tissues, including their beta-cells. Losing weight is a consequence of a good metabolism, not a cause of it, and if one is underweight, then a good metabolism will make you gain weight. No need for toxic drugs to be healthy and reach a healthy weight.

I agree that, sometimes, diet isn't enough to regain health, and that's where vitamins and mineral supplements come in. Some hormone supplements as well can help a lot. Achieving health is something that requires startegy, you can't try one or two things and say "Oh well, diet doesn't work, migth as well go down the mainstream medicine pathway and stuff my cells with a bunch of toxic drugs". It may make you lose weight, but that doesn't mean it's good. People with cancer and diabetes type 1 lose weight very easily, and cachexia is a common effect of these diseases. Losing weight is something that should be done very slowly. That's why niacinamide is so good for the cells: it lowers free fatty acids in the blood, stimulating the oxidation of sugar all the way to CO2 instead of lactate. Also, metformin lowers the NAD/ NADH ratio, so that's another confirmation that this drug is mostly bad.

 

[Kelj]

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You

"As for metformin’s impact on weight loss (an off-label application for the drug), systematic review would suggest nothing more substantial than what can be achieved (and sustained) through any method of purposeful weight loss— i.e. in the range of 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs.).1However, most people are prescribed metformin in response to an elevated fasting blood glucose reading. But it is very important to note blood glucose levels can be elevated in recovery from an eating disorder and will often resolve of their own accord.2"

Rafael speaks empiric truth.

Here, too:

Homeodynamic Recovery Method Guidelines Overview


"The vast majority of the population is of average height and of average weight—almost all of us are sitting on or near that peak of the bell-shaped curve. The absolute peak is BMI 27ish, with the range in which approximately 70% of the population will reside between BMI 21 to 30. 1

Only 4% of the adult population is naturally meant to be between BMI 18.5 to 20.9. There is a steep slope up from the x-axis to the peak of the bell curve on the left-hand size and a shallow slope down from the peak of the curve to the x-axis on the right-hand side. Human beings cannot survive being exceedingly tall or exceedingly thin as well as they can survive being exceedingly short or exceedingly fat."

Notice: human beings cannot survive being exceedingly tall or exceedingly thin as well as they can survive being exceedingly short or exceedingly fat. It is better to be fat than to alter your biology with a toxin.

Now, I would like to ask when anyone is going to get any credit for figuring anything out? Magically eating your way out of a weight problem is not what happens at all. It is not magic or luck. It is understanding some science. It is trust in what Ray calls "the fundamental rationality of the organism". It is hard work. It is reconfirming your understanding of the science over and over when physical repair seems scary and uncomfortable. It is being patient. Lots of people have done this, and every one of them deserves credit for their achievement. You can argue all day long that it doesn't work, but I will stubbornly argue back, because I've seen it. Have you? No, right? So, your doubt is understandable, but incorrect, nevertheless.

 

[YourUniverse]

Now, I would like to ask when anyone is going to get any credit for figuring anything out? Magically eating your way out of a weight problem is not what happens at all. It is not magic or luck. It is understanding some science. It is trust in what Ray calls "the fundamental rationality of the organism". It is hard work. It is reconfirming your understanding of the science over and over when physical repair seems scary and uncomfortable. It is being patient. Lots of people have done this, and every one of them deserves credit for their achievement. You can argue all day long that it doesn't work, but I will stubbornly argue back, because I've seen it. Have you? No, right? So, your doubt is understandable, but incorrect, nevertheless.

Powerful

 

[mrchibbs]

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You

Powerful

Now, I would like to ask when anyone is going to get any credit for figuring anything out? Magically eating your way out of a weight problem is not what happens at all. It is not magic or luck. It is understanding some science. It is trust in what Ray calls "the fundamental rationality of the organism". It is hard work. It is reconfirming your understanding of the science over and over when physical repair seems scary and uncomfortable. It is being patient. Lots of people have done this, and every one of them deserves credit for their achievement. You can argue all day long that it doesn't work, but I will stubbornly argue back, because I've seen it. Have you? No, right? So, your doubt is understandable, but incorrect, nevertheless.

This whole thread is getting a little ridiculous. Let's not get into contests of who's right and who's wrong.

Calorie restriction is extremely bad, everyone here agrees. But I've don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to recover from simply getting loads of calories.
Calls for "patience'' can be irritating when things are not working. Sometimes it is true that all you need is to lower stress and eat a lot of *good* food.

But stating unequivocally that healing will always occur by eating large amounts of whatever foods, polyunsaturated fats included is frankly quite unproductive. We all have different situations. I've seen first hand that overfeeding doesn't necessarily produce any measurable benefit to thyroid function even after several months.

Ray always talks about the organism and how it reacts to its environment. Calories aren't the be all and end all of that relationship. Is it indeed hard work to heal and it takes a lot of courage. Figuring out what irritates your intestines, deficiency of light, of micronutrients, emf, normalizing thyroid function etc. Again, eating enough food is a basic and necessary step, but not always sufficient.

 

[Inspired]

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You

"As for metformin’s impact on weight loss (an off-label application for the drug), systematic review would suggest nothing more substantial than what can be achieved (and sustained) through any method of purposeful weight loss— i.e. in the range of 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs.).1However, most people are prescribed metformin in response to an elevated fasting blood glucose reading. But it is very important to note blood glucose levels can be elevated in recovery from an eating disorder and will often resolve of their own accord.2"

Rafael speaks empiric truth.

Here, too:

Homeodynamic Recovery Method Guidelines Overview


"The vast majority of the population is of average height and of average weight—almost all of us are sitting on or near that peak of the bell-shaped curve. The absolute peak is BMI 27ish, with the range in which approximately 70% of the population will reside between BMI 21 to 30. 1

Only 4% of the adult population is naturally meant to be between BMI 18.5 to 20.9. There is a steep slope up from the x-axis to the peak of the bell curve on the left-hand size and a shallow slope down from the peak of the curve to the x-axis on the right-hand side. Human beings cannot survive being exceedingly tall or exceedingly thin as well as they can survive being exceedingly short or exceedingly fat."

Notice: human beings cannot survive being exceedingly tall or exceedingly thin as well as they can survive being exceedingly short or exceedingly fat. It is better to be fat than to alter your biology with a toxin.

Now, I would like to ask when anyone is going to get any credit for figuring anything out? Magically eating your way out of a weight problem is not what happens at all. It is not magic or luck. It is understanding some science. It is trust in what Ray calls "the fundamental rationality of the organism". It is hard work. It is reconfirming your understanding of the science over and over when physical repair seems scary and uncomfortable. It is being patient. Lots of people have done this, and every one of them deserves credit for their achievement. You can argue all day long that it doesn't work, but I will stubbornly argue back, because I've seen it. Have you? No, right? So, your doubt is understandable, but incorrect, nevertheless.

Stubbornly argue what?

Let me tell you. Metformin is awesome. I have low to normal blood sugar, and I use metformin as a tool. It totally works. And I don't care if would be toxic (but I don't think it is toxic).

Eating your way out of............100lbs of excess fat? Good luck with that. By then, most people are too damaged. Those people need advanced methods and any cheat they can get to get that fat off. Peat's stuff is great to use when you're already healthy or near healthy, and you want your body to run like a well oiled machine

You're insisting most severely overweight and sick people are capable of the kind of discipline or patience needed to eat themselves out of obesity.......You're indeed stubborn, and delusional.

Sure. Go tell the 350lb dude who is down on his luck, to be patient. He'll be back at the buffet, drinking tall boys, with a gun to his head eventually.

I'd rather give him something like metformin to help.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Stubbornly argue what?

Let me tell you. Metformin is awesome. I have low to normal blood sugar, and I use metformin as a tool. It totally works. And I don't care if would be toxic (but I don't think it is toxic).

Eating your way out of............100lbs of excess fat? Good luck with that. By then, most people are too damaged. Those people need advanced methods and any cheat they can get to get that fat off. Peat's stuff is great to use when you're already healthy or near healthy, and you want your body to run like a well oiled machine

You're insisting most severely overweight and sick people are capable of the kind of discipline or patience needed to eat themselves out of obesity.......You're indeed stubborn, and delusional.

Sure. Go tell the 350lb dude who is down on his luck, to be patient. He'll be back at the buffet, drinking tall boys, with a gun to his head eventually.

I'd rather give him something like metformin to help.

Lol

Delusional is thinking that there is a "cheat" to get the fat off without nasty consequences.

You don't care if it's toxic, well, there you go, if you want to go that route, then by all means, play that game and be reckless, but stimulating other people to do the same as you and telling them that the drug isn't toxic is at best disingenuous. And you base that thinking on what exactly? Can you show me studies that say it is good for mitochondria or for the metabolism? If you have those, I'll read them and, if they are conclusive, I'll change my stance. Otherwise, the best evidence shows metformin to be overall a net negative.

You do raise an important topic, which is that the modern environment is literally made to make people fat and sick( propaganda that associates pleasure with PUFA-loaded chips, birth-control-pill-derived estrogens in the water supply, blue light everywhere, etc.). If people don't realize how bad living in cities is, then they are gonna grow up thinking that having these damaging patterns is the only option, since "everybody's doing it", and surely, people won't last very long on such a crappy routine. The best solution is changing the environment( including nutrition) drastically for the better. Until that's done, most things will be either useless or serve just as a band-aid.

There are many toxins, including PUFA, stored in body fat. Getting fat is a defensive mechanism, it's not the root cause of disease, although it does contribute to make the situation worse. Liberating that many toxins in the blood will be very damaging

Since we're talking about toxic drugs, why not DNP( dinitrophenol) instead of metformin?

 

[Dino D]

Lol

Delusional is thinking that there is a "cheat" to get the fat off without nasty consequences.

You don't care if it's toxic, well, there you go, if you want to go that route, then by all means, play that game and be reckless, but stimulating other people to do the same as you and telling them that the drug isn't toxic is at best disingenuous. And you base that thinking on what exactly? Can you show me studies that say it is good for mitochondria or for the metabolism? If you have those, I'll read them and, if they are conclusive, I'll change my stance. Otherwise, the best evidence shows metformin to be overall a net negative.

You do raise an important topic, which is that the modern environment is literally made to make people fat and sick( propaganda that associates pleasure with PUFA-loaded chips, birth-control-pill-derived estrogens in the water supply, blue light everywhere, etc.). If people don't realize how bad living in cities is, then they are gonna grow up thinking that having these damaging patterns is the only option, since "everybody's doing it", and surely, people won't last very long on such a crappy routine. The best solution is changing the environment( including nutrition) drastically for the better. Until that's done, most things will be either useless or serve just as a band-aid.

There are many toxins, including PUFA, stored in body fat. Getting fat is a defensive mechanism, it's not the root cause of disease, although it does contribute to make the situation worse. Liberating that many toxins in the blood will be very damaging

Since we're talking about toxic drugs, why not DNP( dinitrophenol) instead of metformin?

Would we lose weight with yous suplementing to fight pufa... so of our body and blood has all of the antipufa elements in it, so it would be ready to lose the bodyfat...

 

[Inspired]

What are the consequences of strategic metformin use? None that I can see. I use it when I have heavy binge type meals. Everything gets directed to glycogen storage instead of being stored as fat. That's how it works for me. It's awesome actually.

Metformin can help you not get fat and also lose some fat. It works.

Now running on metformin every day for the next 40 years.....etc........is that a good solution? Probably not.

 

[redsun]

Stubbornly argue what?

Let me tell you. Metformin is awesome. I have low to normal blood sugar, and I use metformin as a tool. It totally works. And I don't care if would be toxic (but I don't think it is toxic).

Eating your way out of............100lbs of excess fat? Good luck with that. By then, most people are too damaged. Those people need advanced methods and any cheat they can get to get that fat off. Peat's stuff is great to use when you're already healthy or near healthy, and you want your body to run like a well oiled machine

You're insisting most severely overweight and sick people are capable of the kind of discipline or patience needed to eat themselves out of obesity.......You're indeed stubborn, and delusional.

Sure. Go tell the 350lb dude who is down on his luck, to be patient. He'll be back at the buffet, drinking tall boys, with a gun to his head eventually.

I'd rather give him something like metformin to help.

Well you dont need metformin to do it though. I agree if someone is in a bad state hormonally(severely obese, diabetes, energy issues, high estrogen which is a consequence of obesity) and overall health wise they need to start looking for ways to make the weight start dropping off. Its been known for years how bad it is in the long term to carry tons of fat, and these is even worse in men who need high androgens for optimal health.

A decent diet that has adequate protein and carbs and low PUFA and lowish fat in general will do most of the work in lowering body fat coupled with b-complex each meal and fat solubles daily. This alone will start to significantly lower cortisol, estrogen, serotonin, adrenaline, aromatase and increase androgens and thyroid. This does work but it can take time. Without some kind of baseline diet there is literally no point, because whatever you take it will make you worse in the long run despite the fact of maintaining normal body weight.

Now as for metformin, I see your point and agree, but there are better substances that arent toxic drugs with possible long term problems. Use of uncouplers and androgen boosters are much safer i.e. thyroid NDT, T3, caffeine, forskolin, methylene blue, high dose vitamin D + high dose calcium, DHEA + androsterone(not an uncoupler combo, but a strong androgenic combo because andro acts as an AI to prevent aromatization of DHEA), fat solubles in general.

Less commonly known is supplementing Histidine as histamine has been shown to reduce insulin resistance, improve leptin sensitivity, and suppress appetite and lead to a loss of body fat.

I am not going to bother to keep going, but there are many ways to go about reducing fat without resorting to toxic drugs that are in generally safer and will generally improve health and metabolism, not do the opposite.

 

[Otterbutt]

.

 

[Dino D]

.

What are your conclusions then? How and what to eat?

 

[Inspired]

Well you dont need metformin to do it though. I agree if someone is in a bad state hormonally(severely obese, diabetes, energy issues, high estrogen which is a consequence of obesity) and overall health wise they need to start looking for ways to make the weight start dropping off. Its been known for years how bad it is in the long term to carry tons of fat, and these is even worse in men who need high androgens for optimal health.

A decent diet that has adequate protein and carbs and low PUFA and lowish fat in general will do most of the work in lowering body fat coupled with b-complex each meal and fat solubles daily. This alone will start to significantly lower cortisol, estrogen, serotonin, adrenaline, aromatase and increase androgens and thyroid. This does work but it can take time. Without some kind of baseline diet there is literally no point, because whatever you take it will make you worse in the long run despite the fact of maintaining normal body weight.

Now as for metformin, I see your point and agree, but there are better substances that arent toxic drugs with possible long term problems. Use of uncouplers and androgen boosters are much safer i.e. thyroid NDT, T3, caffeine, forskolin, methylene blue, high dose vitamin D + high dose calcium, DHEA + androsterone(not an uncoupler combo, but a strong androgenic combo because andro acts as an AI to prevent aromatization of DHEA), fat solubles in general.

Less commonly known is supplementing Histidine as histamine has been shown to reduce insulin resistance, improve leptin sensitivity, and suppress appetite and lead to a loss of body fat.

I am not going to bother to keep going, but there are many ways to go about reducing fat without resorting to toxic drugs that are in generally safer and will generally improve health and metabolism, not do the opposite.

I agree also, and thanks for this post.

I am not saying metformin is better than any of the other options. I'm only considering metformin as a strategic addon to complement everything else. Peats way is the best long term solution once a person is metabolically "healthy". If metformin can help someone get to that level, then I recommend trying it out.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Would we lose weight with yous suplementing to fight pufa... so of our body and blood has all of the antipufa elements in it, so it would be ready to lose the bodyfat...

As far as I know, the less PUFA a person has, the harder it is to be overweight, since the metabolism increases so much with very little PUFA in the tissues.

I don't think it's a good idea to flood the blood with a lot of fat, even if it's safe fats, since they will still interfere with sugar metabolism, but yes, if one is using a lot of vitamin E, taurine, vitamin C etc, then slowly burning the excess fat with your skeletal muscles will, IMO, help you lose fat weight, and with those protective substances, the PUFA damage will be reduced. It's important to have some muscle mass( for that, sugar, protein and t3 are paramount). I think severe restriction of PUFA is necessary if someone is really unhealthy, but I can see how only that may not be enough to make someone health. Living in a bad location will prevent one from achieving health.

 

[Otterbutt]

What are your conclusions then? How and what to eat?

Sorry, I was actually trying to delete a post I went off on and accidentally posted it. I think I'll remain quiet on the conversation, so if the mods would like to delete, please do. Not trying to spam. :)

 

[redsun]

I agree also, and thanks for this post.

I am not saying metformin is better than any of the other options. I'm only considering metformin as a strategic addon to complement everything else. Peats way is the best long term solution once a person is metabolically "healthy". If metformin can help someone get to that level, then I recommend trying it out.

I think you are misunderstanding. I was saying the use of things like uncouplers and androgen boosters with nutrients to back them up is safer than metformin. Use of uncouplers and androgen boosters are not necessarily "peaty" and if one wanted to drop weight and maintain it, that would be the better way to do it.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

What are the consequences of strategic metformin use? None that I can see. I use it when I have heavy binge type meals. Everything gets directed to glycogen storage instead of being stored as fat. That's how it works for me. It's awesome actually.

Metformin can help you not get fat and also lose some fat. It works.

Now running on metformin every day for the next 40 years.....etc........is that a good solution? Probably not.

How do you know everything gets converted to glycogen?

Lactate, which is elevated after usage of metformin, actually depletes liver glycogen, since the liver has to use more glucose to turn lactate into glucose than it will get from lactate.

Why would metformin protect you from the PUFA in a binge meal? The only way I can see that happening is if your cells burn the PUFA before it gets stored, which would mean cell damage.

lol just because it "works" doesn't mean the mechanism is safe. There is damage along the way.

And even if an obese person were to use metformin, they would have to use it for longer periods of time, not just every now and then. Damage would likely be done if one is to use the drug for months.

 

[Inspired]

How do you know everything gets converted to glycogen?

Lactate, which is elevated after usage of metformin, actually depletes liver glycogen, since the liver has to use more glucose to turn lactate into glucose than it will get from lactate.

Why would metformin protect you from the PUFA in a binge meal? The only way I can see that happening is if your cells burn the PUFA before it gets stored, which would mean cell damage.

lol just because it "works" doesn't mean the mechanism is safe. There is damage along the way.

And even if an obese person were to use metformin, they would have to use it for longer periods of time, not just every now and then. Damage would likely be done if one is to use the drug for months.

Well, yes, Metformin empties liver glycogen, but, it shuttles everything into muscle, preferentially. No one is 100% sure how it works.

I can't be sure that everything is turned into muscle glycogen. However, my muscles feel very pumped up when I take metformin, and I don't seem to gain bodyfat.

It also controls my hunger when I take it.

PUFA should always be avoided.