Abdominal Fat Is A Phase Folliwing The End Of Calorie Restriction

[Peatful]

@Kelj

You’ve seen her on YouTube or read her book?
(Or is this you?)

 

[ShotTrue]

Hey man, I've been seeing your posts for a long while, and I appreciate the work you're doing in documenting your recovery.
Have you tried incorporating some light dumbbell and muscle building exercise (from home)?

In recent interviews I've heard Ray talk about the importance of building muscle mass, and that raising the ratio of metabolically active tissues is super important for a higher metabolism. He said that muscles are basically the only tissues (incl. liver) that can burn fat safely at rest, and I know you've been struggling a little with losing weight safely, but In my case I was slightly overweight and since I've added light strength training I've lost weight consistently for a month. What really reinforced the point for me what Ray saying how toned muscles also produce a lot of testosterone at rest, overall it seems like a beneficial activity that's often been disregarded on this website.

+1

 

[ShotTrue]

The gamma seal lids are amazing. Wish I'd known about them before I stored rice in a sack and ended up with a wicked Indian meal moth infestation in the house. They're harmless, but other people didn't appreciate it very much -_-

What do you mean by gamma lids?

 

[ShotTrue]

@Jib @mrchibbs I've been quite sick and inflamed but I managed to workout (with the aid of redbull) 4 days a week the past 3 weeks. Now this week my body is too tired to lift, but exercise is definitely a great recovery tool and the more muscle mass you hold the more robust your biological system.
Anyways I also wanted to say with me recovering sometimes I simply don't have energy to cook complex meals or shop for a lot of different ingredients so I end up eating simple things like pre formed breakfast sausage patties and drinking gallons of OJ, eating protein bars and fruits during the day. It's best to make sure you have ample food supply, and such easy to access foods making it really easy for someone who is sick.
I could be wrong but I also kind of feel like high carb helps the body heal but supplying a lot of energy.
And jib you may want to try going higher carb to have more energy to lift, I think athletes need high carb as a necessity. Also I prefer strength training as well but I think the best is to cycle hypertophry and strength. These stack onto each other, and have you see videos of dudes squatting 500 lbs while looking like DYEL? One dude leg completely snapped. I think the body needs muscle size as a platform for strength, otherwise you run into the issue like a knife who is very sharp but also very brittle

 

[Jib]

What do you mean by gamma lids?

Gamma seal lids twist shut instead of the annoying clip-on tops to most food grade large buckets. "Gamma Seal" is just the trademarked name of the design of the airtight lid.

https://www.amazon.com/Bucket-Black...&qid=1564086296&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-1-catcorr

You can buy the gamma seal lids separately. I just get containers with the lids when I can for simplicity as I don't want to accidentally get the wrong size.

@Jib @mrchibbs I've been quite sick and inflamed but I managed to workout (with the aid of redbull) 4 days a week the past 3 weeks. Now this week my body is too tired to lift, but exercise is definitely a great recovery tool and the more muscle mass you hold the more robust your biological system.
Anyways I also wanted to say with me recovering sometimes I simply don't have energy to cook complex meals or shop for a lot of different ingredients so I end up eating simple things like pre formed breakfast sausage patties and drinking gallons of OJ, eating protein bars and fruits during the day. It's best to make sure you have ample food supply, and such easy to access foods making it really easy for someone who is sick.
I could be wrong but I also kind of feel like high carb helps the body heal but supplying a lot of energy.
And jib you may want to try going higher carb to have more energy to lift, I think athletes need high carb as a necessity. Also I prefer strength training as well but I think the best is to cycle hypertophry and strength. These stack onto each other, and have you see videos of dudes squatting 500 lbs while looking like DYEL? One dude leg completely snapped. I think the body needs muscle size as a platform for strength, otherwise you run into the issue like a knife who is very sharp but also very brittle

You may want to try the Wim Hof breathing technique. I've been doing this daily and it helps with energy. My preferred way of doing it is breathe deeply in through the nose, and let 60-70% of the air out through pursed lips. You don't blow out. Just release. And leave some air in your lungs before the next deep breath in. You can look up how to do this on YouTube, but the basic method is 30 repetitions: deep breath in, let the breath out relaxed (let go - don't forcefully breathe out), while leaving some air still in the lungs, breathe in again. Repeat. I do the nose breathing in because breathing in through the mouth causes some tonsil dryness/irritation for me. Breathing out through pursed lips allows less air to escape and makes it easier to leave some air in your lungs, compared to breathing out with a wide open mouth. Just my preference.

Your experience sounds similar to mine. I keep a short log every day of my workouts. Every few weeks I seem to need close to a week off. It seems natural to me. During my rest days I try to have a surplus of calories, use infrared light therapy/get plenty of sunlight.

Grass fed ground beef is a go-to simple meal for me. A lot of times I'll have some shredded cheese with it. I understand completely with the tiredness/unwillingness to prepare food. 1lb of grass fed beef cooks up very quickly, you can use however much salt/spices you want for flavor. OJ or whole oranges/other fruit on the side makes for a nice and easy meal. If I am really trying to get a good intake of a lot of nutrients/calories, I will also have a small shake with such a meal, e.g. OJ blended with a banana or two, some medjool dates, collagen/pea protein/rice protein, and sometimes some MCT oil blended in as well.

I agree about hypertrophy. It is important. I'm slowly building up each work out, adding more weight, increasing the complexity of the movements. At first when I started doing Ring Dips, I just did isometric holds. No dipping, just holding myself above the rings. That took some weeks. Then I got into partial ROM dips. Then I got into full ROM. Now I am at a point where I am using a weighted vest with Ring Dips. Only 20 pounds on the vest. But that weight will slowly increase.

Patience has been key for me. I am doing Skin The Cat on the rings, and can only do 4 repetitions. After the last rep, I go into a tucked Front Lever hold, and hold that for as long as I can. I have been doing this for some weeks now. The strength builds up very slowly. At first I could only do 1 Skin the Cat with partial ROM. Now I can do 4 reps with full ROM. And can hold the tucked front lever for maybe 20 seconds, when I could only hold it for 3 in the beginning.

Slowly adding weight to my dumbbells/barbell. I do find that I can't add even a little weight every workout. It's too much. But I notice more hypertrophy when I do. Always a continuing balancing act, with increasing repetitions vs. increasing the weight.

Squats are tough for me as I have no rack. I suppose I could make one. But for now I am cleaning my barbell off the floor and need to overhead press it behind my head to get into the squat position. This drastically reduces the amount of weight I can use for squatting. Squats/deadlifts are one of the most intensive weightlifting exercises and maybe I should make a rack so I could make the most of this. My hypertrophy has mostly been upper body and yet ironically, maybe hypertrophy in the legs would help overall metabolic rate even more, because they are such larger muscles.

 

[Jib]

I'll also add one weird thing I've been doing mid-workout that helps a LOT:

Pickle juice. I don't know how much is just the sodium, or if the vinegar plays a role too, but it's like it supercharges me. Takes away the weak/tired feeling and gives me way more endurance. I'm in the middle of a power clean/overhead press/high bar squat/deadlift workout at the moment, and the pickle juice is really helping a lot.

 

[Kelj]

View attachment 14089 @Kelj

You’ve seen her on YouTube or read her book?
(Or is this you?)

No, I am not Kayla, but I've been interested in her recovery for a long while. At the same time I was recovering, I found her blog and she provided some "company". It is not too common to find people among up the eating to lose weight, but she was as successful as I was, so our experiences are not unique. I wish everyone would read what she has to say about exercise and eating. Also, these:

Exercise I: As a Way to Restrict? You Bet.

Exercise II: Insidious Activity

Only because I care and have some experience with how it goes down. Be careful out there. Take care of yourself. Be gentle.

 

[Kelj]

you're demeaning Ray's work by deemphasizing the importance of the PUFAs

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-functions-malfunctions.shtmlkoi

Here is an example of how Ray says PUFA accumulation is retarded by not restricting calories. Also, emphasizing carbohydrate in the diet. These are two things I talk about. Ray's body of work is vast. We can all miss things.

"Maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism, without calorie restriction, retards the accumulation of PUFA, and a high metabolic rate is associated with longevity. An adequate amount of sugar maintains both a high rate of metabolism, and a high respiratory quotient, i.e., high production of carbon dioxide."

 

[Cirion]

It might be a little nitpicky, but the key catchphrase is "Maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism". PUFA's are not conducive to maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism, so retarding the accumulation of PUFA is kind of a misleading thing to say in this context, because by definition low PUFA would be eaten in a situation which results in retarding the accumulation of PUFA. It's not possible to eat high PUFA and maintain a high rate of oxidative metabolism. Ok, let me perhaps rephrase - it's not possible for a hypothyroid individual to eat high PUA and maintain high rate of oxidative metabolism. These things are more readily handled by the body that isn't metabolically dysfunctional. Ray peat does not eat much PUFA, and at least at one point in time was eating almost zero, even opting for hydrogenated coconut oil to even minimize the exposure from regular coconut oil.

tl;dr it's possible to maintain a high rate of oxidative metabolism and cheat a little with PUFA's, but likely if your metabolism is already good and/or you live in a zero/negative stress environment that most of us don't have to luxury of having. (Most people find they tolerate PUFA's better while on vacation and chilling on the beach, for example). To suggest we can eat PUFA's and get a good oxidative metabolism when already hypo, I think is a dangerous idea to present and definitely does go against Ray's teachings on PUFA's. But like I say, you're right that academically, if one could somehow maintain a good metabolism while eating high PUFA, then yes, they wouldn't be harmful. But I don't think that's possible for most people. There is a mountain of academic research on the harmful effects of omega-6 fats in particular, even in mainstream medicine. The only point of contention is omega3- fats, which is where RP diverges from mainstream and says even fish O3 fats are unhealthy.

 

[Vinny]

Ok, let me perhaps rephrase - it's not possible for a hypothyroid individual to eat high PUA and maintain high rate of oxidative metabolism.

This!

 

[Kelj]

It might be a little nitpicky, but the key catchphrase is "Maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism". PUFA's are not conducive to maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism, so retarding the accumulation of PUFA is kind of a misleading thing to say in this context, because by definition low PUFA would be eaten in a situation which results in retarding the accumulation of PUFA. It's not possible to eat high PUFA and maintain a high rate of oxidative metabolism. Ok, let me perhaps rephrase - it's not possible for a hypothyroid individual to eat high PUA and maintain high rate of oxidative metabolism. These things are more readily handled by the body that isn't metabolically dysfunctional. Ray peat does not eat much PUFA, and at least at one point in time was eating almost zero, even opting for hydrogenated coconut oil to even minimize the exposure from regular coconut oil.

tl;dr it's possible to maintain a high rate of oxidative metabolism and cheat a little with PUFA's, but likely if your metabolism is already good and/or you live in a zero/negative stress environment that most of us don't have to luxury of having. (Most people find they tolerate PUFA's better while on vacation and chilling on the beach, for example). To suggest we can eat PUFA's and get a good oxidative metabolism when already hypo, I think is a dangerous idea to present and definitely does go against Ray's teachings on PUFA's. But like I say, you're right that academically, if one could somehow maintain a good metabolism while eating high PUFA, then yes, they wouldn't be harmful. But I don't think that's possible for most people. There is a mountain of academic research on the harmful effects of omega-6 fats in particular, even in mainstream medicine. The only point of contention is omega3- fats, which is where RP diverges from mainstream and says even fish O3 fats are unhealthy.

Maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism, without calorie restriction, retards the accumulation of PUFA, and a high metabolic rate is associated with longevity. An adequate amount of sugar maintains both a high rate of metabolism, and a high respiratory quotient, i.e., high production of carbon dioxide."

I am quoting Ray.
Ray says PUFA won't accumulate with a high rate of metabolism ACHIEVED by not restricting calories.
The metabolism, meaning in large part, good thyroid function, is achieved by not restricting calories.
An adequate amount of sugar is necessary because the organism prefers it over fat. Again, Ray says the PUFA won't accumulate.

Ray also says,

".In good health, especially in children, the stress hormones are produced only in the amount needed, because of negative feedback from the free saturated fatty acids, which inhibit the production of adrenalin and adrenal steroids, and eating protein and carbohydrate will quickly end the stress.when the animals received stearic acid in addition to the canola oil, their hearts showed no sign of damage.Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010)."

So, the effects of PUFA, again, is shown to be lessened by a factor of the diet. If saturated fat is eaten, the effects are negated. Even hydrogenated peanut oil will RESTORE mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal, even in old animals.

So, eat plenty of calories, sugar, and saturated fat to avoid negative effects of PUFA.

I'm just quoting Ray.

 

[somuch4food]

I am quoting Ray.
Ray says PUFA won't accumulate with a high rate of metabolism ACHIEVED by not restricting calories.
The metabolism, meaning in large part, good thyroid function, is achieved by not restricting calories.
An adequate amount of sugar is necessary because the organism prefers it over fat. Again, Ray says the PUFA won't accumulate.

Ray also says,

".In good health, especially in children, the stress hormones are produced only in the amount needed, because of negative feedback from the free saturated fatty acids, which inhibit the production of adrenalin and adrenal steroids, and eating protein and carbohydrate will quickly end the stress.when the animals received stearic acid in addition to the canola oil, their hearts showed no sign of damage.Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010)."

So, the effects of PUFA, again, is shown to be lessened by a factor of the diet. If saturated fat is eaten, the effects are negated. Even hydrogenated peanut oil will RESTORE mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal, even in old animals.

So, eat plenty of calories, sugar, and saturated fat to avoid negative effects of PUFA.

I'm just quoting Ray.

I thank you for your interventions. You have influenced me to give more calories even from less adequate foods to my toddler and that stands to be the most healing thing for him apart from avoiding obvious allergies and intolerances (lactose and eggs). Instead of restricting him from dessert when he doesn't eat supper like most parents do nowadays, I try to direct him toward adequate alternatives like bread with butter and jam or maple syrup, and a glass of milk , or crackers with cheese and some berries which are more nutritive than packaged cookies. He's become the sweetest and smartest little thing I know.

 

[Kelj]

I thank you for your interventions. You have influenced me to give more calories even from less adequate foods to my toddler and that stands to be the most healing thing for him apart from avoiding obvious allergies and intolerances (lactose and eggs). Instead of restricting him from dessert when he doesn't eat supper like most parents do nowadays, I try to direct him toward adequate alternatives like bread with butter and jam or maple syrup, and a glass of milk , or crackers with cheese and some berries which are more nutritive than packaged cookies. He's become the sweetest and smartest little thing I know.

This really makes me happy! I am thrilled for you and your little guy.

 

[somuch4food]

This really makes me happy! I am thrilled for you and your little guy.

I saw such horrific comments when I searched for "toddler hungry after daycare". Some daycare providers limiting food for the sake of budget, or mentioning the kid should be able to wait it out until after daycare, or portion controlling kids (he shouldn't be needing 2 bananas, half a banana is enough). Daycare is such a stimulating and stressful situation for a kid that he needs adequate nutrition especially an intelligent, always on the move toddler. I'm now convinced that hyperactive behaviors and tantrums can be blamed on stress hormones, not too much sugar like the popular belief. Adequate calories and rest seem to be the best remedies.

 

[mrchibbs]

I am quoting Ray.
Ray says PUFA won't accumulate with a high rate of metabolism ACHIEVED by not restricting calories.
The metabolism, meaning in large part, good thyroid function, is achieved by not restricting calories.
An adequate amount of sugar is necessary because the organism prefers it over fat. Again, Ray says the PUFA won't accumulate.

Ray also says,

".In good health, especially in children, the stress hormones are produced only in the amount needed, because of negative feedback from the free saturated fatty acids, which inhibit the production of adrenalin and adrenal steroids, and eating protein and carbohydrate will quickly end the stress.when the animals received stearic acid in addition to the canola oil, their hearts showed no sign of damage.Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010)."

So, the effects of PUFA, again, is shown to be lessened by a factor of the diet. If saturated fat is eaten, the effects are negated. Even hydrogenated peanut oil will RESTORE mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal, even in old animals.

So, eat plenty of calories, sugar, and saturated fat to avoid negative effects of PUFA.

I'm just quoting Ray.

Listen I really like the ideas you've presented in this thread, you're not really quoting Ray, you're paraphrasing.

Again, not to beat a dead horse but no one here questions the idea that restricting calories is bad.
But why not eat plenty of calories AND avoid PUFAs at the same time.

I don't think eating calories on its own protects against PUFA accumulation. Stuffing yourself all the time surely prevent low blood sugar and releasing the stored PUFAs, but if your metabolic rate is low and you take in PUFAs, you will store them, no matter the calories. Severely hypothyroid people can keep eating forever and never get the metabolic efficiency necessary to prevent PUFA accumulation. (Re: what Cirion said)

You're basically saying that hypothyroid can restore their metabolism simply just by eating lots of food. Ray has never said that.
Experimentally, they need a lot more than that. Thyroid supplementation, gelatinous cuts of meat, aspirin/niacinamide, sunlight, vitamin e etc.

Moreover, not discriminating food sources can lead to intestinal irritation which negates the whole process.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

When Ray says that a proper metabolism retards the accumulation of PUFA, is he saying that a proper metabolism slows down the accumulation( meaning that the accumulation is still occurring), or is he saying that proper metabolism prevents any further accumulation of PUFA in the tissues?

 

[Kelj]

I saw such horrific comments when I searched for "toddler hungry after daycare". Some daycare providers limiting food for the sake of budget, or mentioning the kid should be able to wait it out until after daycare, or portion controlling kids (he shouldn't be needing 2 bananas, half a banana is enough). Daycare is such a stimulating and stressful situation for a kid that he needs adequate nutrition especially an intelligent, always on the move toddler. I'm now convinced that hyperactive behaviors and tantrums can be blamed on stress hormones, not too much sugar like the popular belief. Adequate calories and rest seem to be the best remedies.

I agree. That is horrific. How many times have we heard a toddler screaming in a grocery store? Brat, right? Or a hungry kid surrounded by food, with a body demanding some energy? Just cortisol (stress).

 

[mrchibbs]

When Ray says that a proper metabolism retards the accumulation of PUFA, is he saying that a proper metabolism slows down the accumulation( meaning that the accumulation is still occurring), or is he saying that proper metabolism prevents any further accumulation of PUFA in the tissues?

It slows it down. Ray has kept his metabolism super high for decades and he still says he's accumulating some PUFAs. I think it's central to the process of aging.

The most highly unsaturated fats, including DHA, accumulate with aging, and their toxic fragments are increased in Alzheimer's disease.

 

[Kelj]

Listen I really like the ideas you've presented in this thread, you're not really quoting Ray, you're paraphrasing.

Again, not to beat a dead horse but no one here questions the idea that restricting calories is bad.
But why not eat plenty of calories AND avoid PUFAs at the same time.

I don't think eating calories on its own protects against PUFA accumulation. Stuffing yourself all the time surely prevent low blood sugar and releasing the stored PUFAs, but if your metabolic rate is low and you take in PUFAs, you will store them, no matter the calories. Severely hypothyroid people can keep eating forever and never get the metabolic efficiency necessary to prevent PUFA accumulation. (Re: what Cirion said)

You're basically saying that hypothyroid can restore their metabolism simply just by eating lots of food. Ray has never said that.
Experimentally, they need a lot more than that. Thyroid supplementation, gelatinous cuts of meat, aspirin/niacinamide, sunlight, vitamin e etc.

Moreover, not discriminating food sources can lead to intestinal irritation which

This:


"Maintaining a high rate of oxidative metabolism, without calorie restriction, retards the accumulation of PUFA, and a high metabolic rate is associated with longevity. An adequate amount of sugar maintains both a high rate of metabolism, and a high respiratory quotient, i.e., high production of carbon dioxide."

And, this:

"In good health, especially in children, the stress hormones are produced only in the amount needed, because of negative feedback from the free saturated fatty acids, which inhibit the production of adrenalin and adrenal steroids, and eating protein and carbohydrate will quickly end the stress.when the animals received stearic acid in addition to the canola oil, their hearts showed no sign of damage.Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010)."

are direct quotes from this article:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-functions-malfunctions.shtmlkoi

I am simply highlighting some things Ray has said, because sometimes we read his articles and we only see "PUFA is dangerous, blah, blah, blah." Are there mitigating circumstances? I think so, as Ray says. Of course, if a person eats plenty of calories, he can avoid PUFA all day long, if he wants. If in trying to avoid them, he under eats, the undereating is damaging.

 

[Kelj]

When Ray says that a proper metabolism retards the accumulation of PUFA, is he saying that a proper metabolism slows down the accumulation( meaning that the accumulation is still occurring), or is he saying that proper metabolism prevents any further accumulation of PUFA in the tissues?

I am combining some things I know for sure:

1. Our bodies prefer to oxidize sugar.
2. Our bodies store excess fat when we
engage in restriction of calories, followed by reactive eating driven
by our bodies need. The excess accu-
mulation is eliminated upon
adoption of non-restrictive eating.
3. Our metabolism and thyroid
function are normalized by eating
plenty of calories. The body uses
the energy
to repair them. Every person
recovered from an eating disorder
knows this.
4. Eating enough mitigates PUFA
damage.