Abdominal Fat Is A Phase Folliwing The End Of Calorie Restriction

Inspired

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I think you are misunderstanding. I was saying the use of things like uncouplers and androgen boosters with nutrients to back them up is safer than metformin. Use of uncouplers and androgen boosters are not necessarily "peaty" and if one wanted to drop weight and maintain it, that would be the better way to do it.
No, I understand and I agree with you.
 
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Well, yes, Metformin empties liver glycogen, but, it shuttles everything into muscle, preferentially. No one is 100% sure how it works.

I can't be sure that everything is turned into muscle glycogen. However, my muscles feel very pumped up when I take metformin, and I don't seem to gain bodyfat.

It also controls my hunger when I take it.

PUFA should always be avoided.
Is there any study showing that metformin moves the glycogen from the liver to the muscles?

The pump could be because of the lactate, since it promotes blood vessel formation. Also, switching from glucose burning to fat burning may cause some weight loss.

When you say it controls your hunger, does that mean your appetite is higher when you don't take metformin? How many calories are you eating per day?

I agree, PUFA avoidance is something everyone should try as much as possible.
 

Inspired

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Is there any study showing that metformin moves the glycogen from the liver to the muscles?

The pump could be because of the lactate, since it promotes blood vessel formation. Also, switching from glucose burning to fat burning may cause some weight loss.

When you say it controls your hunger, does that mean your appetite is higher when you don't take metformin? How many calories are you eating per day?

I agree, PUFA avoidance is something everyone should try as much as possible.

Well.....yes there are studies. I would have to look. Metformin works many ways. The lactate issue doesn't really seem to come up in studies I've read.

https://www.em-consulte.com/en/article/80235 random link with some info.


I need to make my argument for metformin.........I actually think it is very misunderstood here on this forum. I actually think metformin is kind of Peaty in a wierd way. Or could be.
 
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@Kelj I am trying to understand (and believe) what you're saying but it seems like the very important detail that is being left out is the person's genetic and environmental situation.

For example, let's use myself as an example.

For most of my years, before I was ever into dieting or ever restricting anything, I have always gravitated to be obese when I have a sedentary lifestyle
and I gravitate to an average weight if I can have a very active lifestyle. I experienced this while eating intuitively and all other things being the same.

I then recently fasted on and off for 2 years and got a 6 pack but now have regained all the weight back and then some since no longer fasting.
Your posts seem to imply that as long as I give my body what it asks for and am patient, I will eventually return to a healthy, leanish weight.

But what my experience tells me is that as long as I stay in my current sedentary lifestlye, I will always be overweight when eating intuitively.

Please tell me what I am missing.
Anyone else, please chime in as well.

Even in my current situation, I have mathematically tracked how saturated fat and fruit juice cause weight loss while starch and a ton of other things cause weight gain.

To ignore this data seems reckless in my opinion. Nevermind that I don't have money to keep buying new, larger wardrobes. :(
 

mrchibbs

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@Kelj I am trying to understand (and believe) what you're saying but it seems like the very important detail that is being left out is the person's genetic and environmental situation.

For example, let's use myself as an example.

For most of my years, before I was ever into dieting or ever restricting anything, I have always gravitated to be obese when I have a sedentary lifestyle
and I gravitate to an average weight if I can have a very active lifestyle. I experienced this while eating intuitively and all other things being the same.

I then recently fasted on and off for 2 years and got a 6 pack but now have regained all the weight back and then some since no longer fasting.
Your posts seem to imply that as long as I give my body what it asks for and am patient, I will eventually return to a healthy, leanish weight.

But what my experience tells me is that as long as I stay in my current sedentary lifestlye, I will always be overweight when eating intuitively.

Please tell me what I am missing.
Anyone else, please chime in as well.

Even in my current situation, I have mathematically tracked how saturated fat and fruit juice cause weight loss while starch and a ton of other things cause weight gain.

To ignore this data seems reckless in my opinion. Nevermind that I don't have money to keep buying new, larger wardrobes. :(

@corvetteseeker

Do you have an idea what your pulse/temp are throughout the day? Is your digestion good in terms of bowel motility? If you feel good, finding a physical activity that you enjoy can be an integral part of losing that stubborn weight without restricting calories.
 

BigChad

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Yeah, and I recently went through an encyclopedia on Chinese food history, and although soy and vegetables have been cultivated for a long time, there is no mention of the oils being extracted for human consumption before the 20th century. All the texts and recipes from the Chinese dynasties refer to a variety of animal fats for cooking. So they were not eating lots of PUFAs.




No one disagrees that getting enough calories is essential for recovery. Only that it has to come from easy to digest foods and no PUFAs. That's all.
The problem with PUFA accumulation is that it is insidious, its effect aren't seen in the short term. So getting lots of vitamin A and carbs from junk food will help health in the short term but you will always be limited by the free fatty acids in your tissues. It's a source of internal poisoning. And the many vitamins and micronutrients are essential to steroid synthesis. Results will be sup-bar if there isn't an emphasis on nutrient-dense easy to digest foods. You can't simply ''eat your way to health'', that's a totally reductionist mindset, and you're demeaning Ray's work by deemphasizing the importance of the PUFAs.

What makes you mention vitamin A here? Are you saying vitamin A is bad long term, due to it being a poison even in smaller doses
 
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Well.....yes there are studies. I would have to look. Metformin works many ways. The lactate issue doesn't really seem to come up in studies I've read.

https://www.em-consulte.com/en/article/80235 random link with some info.


I need to make my argument for metformin.........I actually think it is very misunderstood here on this forum. I actually think metformin is kind of Peaty in a wierd way. Or could be.
Thanks for the study, I'll read it.
 
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One more thing ...

I know many people who are heavy but otherwise have good health and who have never restricted anything. They eat intuitively yet the theory of OP would suggest that all these people would end up lean. But they don’t. And a lot of these ppl are even very active at their jobs. Am I misunderstanding the premise?
 

mrchibbs

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What makes you mention vitamin A here? Are you saying vitamin A is bad long term, due to it being a poison even in smaller doses

Despite the "Poisonol" crowd, it's obvious that vitamin A has a lot of therapeutic value, especially when it is needed. It's a cofactor for the synthesis of the steroids and generally will help many things, like the A-D-K-E balance. Long term however, if the thyroid function remains too low, the liver won't be able to use it and the excess will accumulate, and since it's an unsaturated molecule, it will proceed to ''poison'' the tissues and suppress the thyroid even further just like polyunsaturated fats do.
 
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@corvetteseeker

Do you have an idea what your pulse/temp are throughout the day? Is your digestion good in terms of bowel motility? If you feel good, finding a physical activity that you enjoy can be an integral part of losing that stubborn weight without restricting calories.

Hi Mr Chibbs, the fasting triggered, caused or exacerbated me to be hypothyroid so I’ve been dealing with this challenge. I think my temps are good when I eat foods I respond well too but I need to track this and pulse to be able to answer well.

Bowel movements and digestion are great.

The challenge is I am tied to a desk job all day and then I am trying to get out of the rat race when I leave work which means more computer work. And have a wife and 4 kids!
 
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My biggest challenge and frustration besides weight is I have never regained my libido since fasting. All my hormone bloodwork is in normal range. My SHBG could be lower but that’s about it. I’ve also taken many different androgenic supplements with no success.
 
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Well.....yes there are studies. I would have to look. Metformin works many ways. The lactate issue doesn't really seem to come up in studies I've read.

Reducing insulin resistance with metformin: the evidence today - EM|consulte random link with some info.


I need to make my argument for metformin.........I actually think it is very misunderstood here on this forum. I actually think metformin is kind of Peaty in a wierd way. Or could be.
From that study you posted:
"Inhibition of cellular respiration decreases gluconeogenesis [31]and may induce expression of glucose transporters and, therefore, glucose utilisation."

This means metformin indeed poisons the cellular metabolism. I don't see any mention of lactate, but I also don't see any mention of CO2 levels. Also, I believe I saw they mentioning metformin lowers ATP, so it probably is damaging the electron transport chain.

But it does lower FFAs in the blood, and seems to increase muscle glycogen, so it isn't all bad, in my view.
 

redsun

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@Kelj I am trying to understand (and believe) what you're saying but it seems like the very important detail that is being left out is the person's genetic and environmental situation.

For example, let's use myself as an example.

For most of my years, before I was ever into dieting or ever restricting anything, I have always gravitated to be obese when I have a sedentary lifestyle
and I gravitate to an average weight if I can have a very active lifestyle. I experienced this while eating intuitively and all other things being the same.

I then recently fasted on and off for 2 years and got a 6 pack but now have regained all the weight back and then some since no longer fasting.
Your posts seem to imply that as long as I give my body what it asks for and am patient, I will eventually return to a healthy, leanish weight.

But what my experience tells me is that as long as I stay in my current sedentary lifestlye, I will always be overweight when eating intuitively.

Please tell me what I am missing.
Anyone else, please chime in as well.

Even in my current situation, I have mathematically tracked how saturated fat and fruit juice cause weight loss while starch and a ton of other things cause weight gain.

To ignore this data seems reckless in my opinion. Nevermind that I don't have money to keep buying new, larger wardrobes. :(

Do you have a lack of seasonal allergies? Low libido(you have answered this and the answer is yes)? You also say you have a tendency to be overweight.

Reason I ask this is because though generally here its not talked about often, overmethylation and undermethylation, aka histapenia(low histamine) and histadelia(high histamine) may be the knowledge you are looking for to help your situation. You sound like a classic overmethylator but thats based off only a few snippets of info you provided.

There's a questionnaire on this link, and if you answer yes to the majority of these then you likely are dealing with histapenia(low histamine):

A Closer Look at a Low Histamine (Histapenia) Biochemistry

The next step would be to get a blood histamine test and confirm if indeed your histamine levels are lower then normal. If that is the case then you want to raise it. The site also provides threatments for raising histapenia and, there is also Dr. Carl Pfeiffers book on Schizophrenia that deals with histapenia and histadelia, but for simplicity's sake there are a few things that work better as treatment instead of taking a lot of different supplements that dont really help quickly enough.

If you have histapenia, the goal is you want the histidine content of the diet to excede the methionine content. This is the most efficient way to deal with it as AAs are consumed in grams a day and relying on micronutrients to do most of the work is unnecessarily tedious. Certain proteins are high in histidine and low in methionine relatively. Pork and beef steaks.

Ground beef histidine:methionine ratio is nearly 1 to 1. Eggs are very low in histidine compared to methionine, milk is 1 to 1 mostly which isnt what you want but some cheese have good ratios, some so far I have found are gouda, meunster and monterey jack. Chicken is at a poor ratio and so is all poultry I am sure so should be avoided. Taking L-histidine in a few grams per day can help expedite the process to tip the scale away from methionine.

This will start reducing methylation overall as histamine has to be methylated by SAMe to be excreted. Histamine itself will begin to dominate and overall will restore leptin sensitivity and normalize hunger and naturally reduce body weight etc etc... Keeping the methylation cycle going with methylation cofactors B2, B6, B12, folate, etc... will help as well. Niacinamide can also reduce excess methyl groups but i wouldnt overdue it. Dr. Pfeiffer has his own regime for histapenia in his book here. Its good a read and at the end of the chapter on histapenia he puts his recommended regime for it.

Again, check out the symptoms for yourself and if you want to take it further a blood histamine test may shed some light. There are also many websites that talk about overmethylation so you can read quite a bit on the topic, I'll also link the PDF to the book as well.

From that study you posted:
"Inhibition of cellular respiration decreases gluconeogenesis [31]and may induce expression of glucose transporters and, therefore, glucose utilisation."

This means metformin indeed poisons the cellular metabolism. I don't see any mention of lactate, but I also don't see any mention of CO2 levels. Also, I believe I saw they mentioning metformin lowers ATP, so it probably is damaging the electron transport chain.

But it does lower FFAs in the blood, and seems to increase muscle glycogen, so it isn't all bad, in my view.

Not to play advocate for metformin here, but my understanding is anything that increases metabolic rate can decrease ATP. I mean not sure how often this is the case. DNP decreases ATP because of uncoupling wasting energy.
 

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BigChad

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Despite the "Poisonol" crowd, it's obvious that vitamin A has a lot of therapeutic value, especially when it is needed. It's a cofactor for the synthesis of the steroids and generally will help many things, like the A-D-K-E balance. Long term however, if the thyroid function remains too low, the liver won't be able to use it and the excess will accumulate, and since it's an unsaturated molecule, it will proceed to ''poison'' the tissues and suppress the thyroid even further just like polyunsaturated fats do.

I see, so should vitamin A be minimized while in a hypothyroid state? does it need to be very low or like 3500Iu preformed A a day is fine?
Do you know anything regarding the vitamin E tocotrienols? ive heard they're bad because they're unsaturated, but I don't see why that means they have to be bad since vitamin A is also unsaturated and has some value.
 

Cirion

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Even in my current situation, I have mathematically tracked how saturated fat and fruit juice cause weight loss while starch and a ton of other things cause weight gain.

Could you expand on this either here or in a PM? I'd be interested to see your data. What you said validates what Ray has said... so, I'm not too surprised!
 

somuch4food

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One more thing ...

I know many people who are heavy but otherwise have good health and who have never restricted anything. They eat intuitively yet the theory of OP would suggest that all these people would end up lean. But they don’t. And a lot of these ppl are even very active at their jobs. Am I misunderstanding the premise?

Lean isn't the right vocabulary. Refeeding should make you regain health from what I have gathered from Kelj's posts. Not everyone is meant to be a stick figure. I also think that refeeding can fail if the environment and lifestyle are too stressful to the body. You can't regain peace while the war is on. That's why I think it's important to reconnect with the body on a higher level than just nutrition.
 

Cirion

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Now, I would like to ask when anyone is going to get any credit for figuring anything out? Magically eating your way out of a weight problem is not what happens at all. It is not magic or luck. It is understanding some science. It is trust in what Ray calls "the fundamental rationality of the organism". It is hard work. It is reconfirming your understanding of the science over and over when physical repair seems scary and uncomfortable. It is being patient. Lots of people have done this, and every one of them deserves credit for their achievement. You can argue all day long that it doesn't work, but I will stubbornly argue back, because I've seen it. Have you? No, right? So, your doubt is understandable, but incorrect, nevertheless.

I'm not trying to be argumentative (Though it may come across that way!) I've just been around the block too many times to know that generally, there is no magic bullet in the health world, as much as we'd like there to be one. You're right though, I haven't seen it, and that's indeed why I don't believe it. If I got it to work for me, then yes, I'd believe it. Yes, I'm hardheaded and rarely believe anything I can't see for myself. Call it a character flaw =P But it's hard to see something working when A.) It doesn't make me feel better (like it did for you) and B.) it takes an eternity (years) to get cured, so its really hard e ven to objectively tell its working, especially when you can no longer even use temps pulses or body weight to track progress. Ok, maybe that's my thing. I need a way to KNOW its working. Is there any parameter you can track? CO2 maybe? Because if temps,pulses,bodyweight,mood, libido,motivation is ALL garbage... clearly, it's not working.
 

mrchibbs

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I see, so should vitamin A be minimized while in a hypothyroid state? does it need to be very low or like 3500Iu preformed A a day is fine?
Do you know anything regarding the vitamin E tocotrienols? ive heard they're bad because they're unsaturated, but I don't see why that means they have to be bad since vitamin A is also unsaturated and has some value.

Yeah I think so. Vitamin E is also important to prevent oxidation of the unsaturated molecules.
In winter we need very little vitamin A. Avoid vit. A supplements and you'll be fine.
If thyroid function is high and you're exposed to a lot of sun, you're gonna need more vitamin A, which you can readily get from liver once a week.
Once a month might be all you need during the winter.
 

BigChad

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Yeah I think so. Vitamin E is also important to prevent oxidation of the unsaturated molecules.
In winter we need very little vitamin A. Avoid vit. A supplements and you'll be fine.
If thyroid function is high and you're exposed to a lot of sun, you're gonna need more vitamin A, which you can readily get from liver once a week.
Once a month might be all you need during the winter.

Wat a bout supplemental vitamin d3 and k2. Do they affect vitamin A needs or allow you to consume supplemental vitamin A year round
 
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Do you have a lack of seasonal allergies? Low libido(you have answered this and the answer is yes)? You also say you have a tendency to be overweight.

Reason I ask this is because though generally here its not talked about often, overmethylation and undermethylation, aka histapenia(low histamine) and histadelia(high histamine) may be the knowledge you are looking for to help your situation. You sound like a classic overmethylator but thats based off only a few snippets of info you provided.

Wow, this is exactly why I love this place - I always learn something new every day.
Well, I have 9 of the 10 symptom threshold out of the questions they had on there so I'm borderline.
I have nothing to lose from getting tested for this so I might as well. Thank you so much for sharing this.
 

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