Oxalate Toxicity

[Momentum]

Momentum, take a lot of lemon juice of citrates, it helps the dumping.
The issue is what we have in bones and stored with mercury or other metals. If we chelate, then what happens? Can they attach again and store again elsewhere? Oxalate in the blood cross everything easily, back and forh sometimes, between blood and kidneys and intestine.
We have an unknown variable that has not been studied enough, oxalate and metals. Also oxalate and molds in our body, that make oxalate...

Yes, thank you. I've stopped my daily chai tea (which is what pushed me over the edge) and am now juicing 2 lemons and 2 limes into 1/2 gallon of water. Add a little monkfruit and drink throughout the day. I'll be ordering some potassium citrate, potassium bi-carb, and calcium citrate to add and take throughout the day. Besides iodine, which I've been on for a decade, I take smaller things to chelate. Chelating is such a challenge. What I really need is a high quality mineral supplement. ??

I took some of Haidut's Kuinone the other day and boy, oh boy, got a massive headache for several hours after each dose. Gave my husband two 5 drop doses and later he thought he had the flu (for the next 36 hours). I could be very wrong, and the K2 may have caused a totally different dump, but doesn't it unbind calcium deposits? I wonder if it could push out oxalate. OMG - we were miserable, and beyond grumpy. LOL. I am now just taking one drop at bedtime and will build up slowly.

 

[Blossom]

Here’s another good interview with Sally K. Norton filled with good gems of information on oxalate (please excuse the keto/carnivore slant).

 

[Trix]

@Blossom did you investigate Francis J Hart's diet (I saw on Dr Garrett's site from the comments section) regarding oxalates for someone dealing with cancer? He, Col Joe, says that oxalates kill viruses, fungi, bacteria, and resolves cancer. He says oxalic acid cleanses the blood within a week when it is high enough in the diet. I read his book and there are many testimonies with cancer, RA, vascular issues, etc. He also has a pdf that explains his findings. I found it very encouraging. I've restricted our diets too because my husband has arthritis and this has not benefited him. He has a statement in the book regarding prions which causes the JC brain disease that interested me because he said it was a virus that caused it in animals because of the cow's diet being devoid of weeds....scientists changed the first words for the disease as a viron to prion (protein being mis folded), but he thinks the virus is what caused the protein to misfold. I know I might not have explained this correctly, but the book was written with his gut instincts from lots of research.

 

[Trix]

This makes me think too of all the people who died of cancer on the W P diet, and I guess that is where I first heard that I should limit my oxalates. Maybe if they increased their oxalates it would have protected them....who knows. I know there are things in the book I wouldn't do, but for someone dealing with a diagnosis that could be terminal, it would be an option.

 

[Blossom]

@Blossom did you investigate Francis J Hart's diet (I saw on Dr Garrett's site from the comments section) regarding oxalates for someone dealing with cancer? He, Col Joe, says that oxalates kill viruses, fungi, bacteria, and resolves cancer. He says oxalic acid cleanses the blood within a week when it is high enough in the diet. I read his book and there are many testimonies with cancer, RA, vascular issues, etc. He also has a pdf that explains his findings. I found it very encouraging. I've restricted our diets too because my husband has arthritis and this has not benefited him. He has a statement in the book regarding prions which causes the JC brain disease that interested me because he said it was a virus that caused it in animals because of the cow's diet being devoid of weeds....scientists changed the first words for the disease as a viron to prion (protein being mis folded), but he thinks the virus is what caused the protein to misfold. I know I might not have explained this correctly, but the book was written with his gut instincts from lots of research.

I haven’t heard of him but it sounds very interesting. I’ll definitely look into his work. Thank you for letting me know!

 

[Blossom]

Just for the record I don’t think oxalates are always bad or even bad for everyone. I’m sure they have their place and are probably benign for many people. I hope to one day transition back to including more foods with oxalate without having issues.

 

[Blossom]

@Trix, a forum member sent me this conversation with Susan Owens on the topic.

 

[Pompadour]

Boiling can greatly reduce oxalates
Effect of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content. - PubMed - NCBI

The difficult part of using low oxalate diet is that the lists of safer food can be different And the quantity of oxalates can vary in the same fruits and vegetables.

 

[somuch4food]

Boiling can greatly reduce oxalates
Effect of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content. - PubMed - NCBI

The difficult part of using low oxalate diet is that the lists of safer food can be different And the quantity of oxalates can vary in the same fruits and vegetables.

That's the crazy part and why I'm trying to find foods that agree with me instead of using only lists.

I've seen many either listed as high or low.

 

[Momentum]

Oxalates are toxic poison. They are not a substance that some might be sensitive or allergic to. That being said the human body can handle some oxalate and it can handle more if taken with some calcium, especially calcium citrate.
That being said, I agree that some people can handle more than others. I would imagine that anyone with compromised health would be wise to greatly reduce them. Especially those with connective tissue disorders or any tissue diseases, or arthritis - LOL, I guess that pretty much means anyone unwell.

Over the years I had completely healed my thyroid of Hashi's with iodine. This last fall, not knowing about oxalate and greatly increasing my oxalate, I began to have hypoT symptoms again and went back on thyroid meds. I've learned that iodine and oxalate fight for the same receptor (oxalate also fights for other receptors). I would imagine that the amount of oxalate I was eating overwhelm the iodine and the iodine was replaced with oxalate and created my thyroid issue. Dr. Susan Owens states that oxalates will settle and accumulate in damaged areas.

I've been thinking about a friend from years ago. Her thyroid was going from hypo to hyper. Prior to that time she had had a mammogram and they found "crystals". She said they weren't sure what they were, but they weren't cancer. IDK if they were analyzed. I wouldn't be surprised if her oxalate intake was high causing both of these issues.

Another friend's mother is in assisted care and she has had issue after issue the last few years. They keep testing her for a UTI - cloudy urine, but can't find infection. My friend is frustrated because it seems like a UTI, but it's not and they have no answers. Hmmmmm.

With the vegan/vegetarian craze I think oxalates will get more attention. Apparently, according to the folks at TLO- Trying Low Oxalates most of the oxalate contents in food listed on the web are inaccurate. And for some reason you have to join their group to gain access to the "accurately tested" food list - it's a good list. Sadly, many, many more foods and growing conditions need to be studied. I hypothesize the use of glyphosate over the decades, in addition to mineral depleted soils, may have increased in the oxalate content in foods.

Of note, I went to the eye doc in Aug/Sept, he made no note of anything wrong with my eyes despite my complaints. I recently went again two weeks ago (different doc) and he noted a cataract in each eye. Some cataracts are made up of oxalate. It was the time in between visits that I greatly increased consumption and became very ill with multiple symptoms.

Please don't under estimate the danger of oxalates. Never before have humans had access or consumed these foods year 'round.

 

[Momentum]

@somuch4food
I'm not so sure about "foods that agree with you" work really well with oxalates. Maybe sometimes, it really depends. I think if your bucket is spilling over, then yes. But, also, as people decrease their consumption their body will begin to dump oxalate and people can have some pretty rough days/weeks. Because of this action, it may be difficult to tell if that particular food is an issue. You might spend a few days eating chicken, rice, broccoli and eggs and feel horrible, but these foods are very low oxalate - and by eating them your body may start to dump and you could feel terrible.
Frustrating to say the least.

 

[Momentum]

@Blossom posted this one earlier - it's not so much carnivore slanted. (It's the one I send my vega/vegetarian friends.
@Blossom IDK if Sally has said anything about EDS, but if you watch her videos notice the skin above her elbows - highly elastic. I'm wondering if she is classic EDS?

 

[Blossom]

Sally has said anything about EDS,

Interesting observation! I don’t recall her mentioning EDS but I certainly don’t know her full health history. She looks pretty good though.

 

[Momentum]

She does look well. IIRC she had a major health situation years ago. I know this fall, when my health was crashing again, one thing I noticed was that I was aging very quickly. I do believe that oxalates are destructive to collagen and she certainly avoids them

 

[somuch4food]

@somuch4food
I'm not so sure about "foods that agree with you" work really well with oxalates. Maybe sometimes, it really depends. I think if your bucket is spilling over, then yes. But, also, as people decrease their consumption their body will begin to dump oxalate and people can have some pretty rough days/weeks. Because of this action, it may be difficult to tell if that particular food is an issue. You might spend a few days eating chicken, rice, broccoli and eggs and feel horrible, but these foods are very low oxalate - and by eating them your body may start to dump and you could feel terrible.
Frustrating to say the least.

Yeah, I'm not exactly low oxalate. I try to reduce my intake, but I'm doing so gradually by changing my habits instead of following a diet.

I think I'm more moderate which prevents dumping, but enables me to feel when I spill over.

There's too much going on in my life to be going radical with my diet. I'm also trying out combinations like having dairy with higher oxalates foods.

There's also a part of me that still denies this theory and just want to enjoy food atm. It's a mess to be in honestly, but I no longer follow diets and I'm trying to find an equilibrium again by trial and error.

 

[Blossom]

destructive to collagen and she certainly avoids them

I hope it works that well for me.

 

[bistecca]

I cut out pretty much all green/oxalate rich stuff when i first started peating years ago and noticed huge improvements, especially regarding muscle cramps.

 

[Indicatrice]

Some things I’ve read on the subject point to leaky gut/increased intestinal permeability leading to too much oxalate making it into the bloodstream and circulating through out the body and it then deposits in various tissues. That’s my lay person understanding anyway.

It would be interesting to have a study with 2 groups, both consuming the same amount of oxalates with one group consuming 0 gluten and the other consuming gluten to induce intestinal permeability.

 

[Blossom]

It would be interesting to have a study with 2 groups, both consuming the same amount of oxalates with one group consuming 0 gluten and the other consuming gluten to induce intestinal permeability.

That would be interesting. Hopefully one day it might happen.

 

[Momentum]

It would be interesting to have a study with 2 groups, both consuming the same amount of oxalates with one group consuming 0 gluten and the other consuming gluten to induce intestinal permeability.

It might be interesting but oh, so complicated. Gluten causes a sensitivity or allergy (in certain people), and usually the reaction is quite fast; hours to a day. Whereas oxalate is a toxin that we can process to some extent. Then you'd have figure out how to control oxalate that gets bound and extreted, and oxalate that gets absorbed sublingually and never even has a chance to bind. And you'd have to control, I guess, where the oxalate deposits. I'd imagine the toxic amount may be different for each person, or maybe it's more that each person may metabolize it different based on genetics.? From many stories I've heard, people can be going along ok for years, let's say eating a vegan/vegetarian diet, but then they start to feel achy and they eventually make the oxalate connection. So, it took years for their bucket to fill and spill - LOL.

Also, from what I'm learning, it appears oxalates can settle in any tissue - not just gut. Dr Susan Owens IIRC stated she believes they like to settle in damaged areas (chicken or egg?). Oxalate shares the same receptor as iodine, so I would think oxalates would be particularly damaging where iodine should be abundant (glands, organs). I've taken a lot of iodine everyday for over a decade and reversed my Hashi's and got off meds. When I changed my diet, consuming high oxalates, my thyroid went down hill along with my overall health. (I don't know if antibodies came back, but I needed meds again.) I believe the amount of oxalate was higher than my iodine intake and oxalate won.

Hmmm, makes me wonder if iodine is a good way to force oxalate dumping?

And as stated above oxalates can be excreted not only in urine, but through tears, skin and probably just about every place else. No doubt these sharp crystals, shards and spears can damage the gut though, but they cause problems in so many other areas that gluten doesn't.