Oxalate Toxicity

[Momentum]

I am still in the group. Annie is a perfect example of whom not to put as the gatekeeper. She is brutal and certainly not kind about it. Soooo much to learn. I have never stopped learning. Though I learned not to make any kind of post - lol. I think it is a group worth staying in. They update the spreadsheet every year. That alone is worth it. If you are using iPhone, download the pdf version in iBooks. Search function works awesome!

Yeah, the only way I've found to go 'round her is to not start a new post, but just expand on an existing one. LOL

She almost kicked me off the group because I stated/ proved that Vitamin C and Ascorbic Acid are not exactly the same thing which was very relevant to the post (and the oxalate issue). - I wish Susan would clarify the issue.

I pop over there every now and again. I have to be in the right mood or desperate for info. I'm learning to roll with more things in life lately ;-)
I think keeping the spreadsheet private is shameful, since the oxalate info elsewhere on the net is fairly inaccurate. I wouldn't even care if they had a download fee. The funds could be used for more desperately needed oxalate testing

 

[Recoen]

Yeah, the only way I've found to go 'round her is to not start a new post, but just expand on an existing one. LOL

She almost kicked me off the group because I stated/ proved that Vitamin C and Ascorbic Acid are not exactly the same thing which was very relevant to the post (and the oxalate issue). - I wish Susan would clarify the issue.

I pop over there every now and again. I have to be in the right mood or desperate for info. I'm learning to roll with more things in life lately ;-)
I think keeping the spreadsheet private is shameful, since the oxalate info elsewhere on the net is fairly inaccurate. I wouldn't even care if they had a download fee. The funds could be used for more desperately needed oxalate testing

Will you share the AA vs WFC information here please?

 

[Momentum]

Will you share the AA vs WFC information here please?

Simply (w/o looking up all the links again-sorry), AA is a "part' of whole food vitamin C. WFC is just that WHOLE. AA is a component of it. People mistakenly use the terms interchangeably but that doesn't make it correct. At the time I linked to published studies stating this fact.

We keep isolating components out of our foods, herbs, etc. thinking we have the miracle ingredient. Maybe that's not the answer. Sadly, our food is either extremely deficient in nutrients and/or the nutrients have been modified due to modern farming practices. I take plenty of sups - wish I could get everything I need in food. :-(

 

[Dutchie]

I am still in the group. Annie is a perfect example of whom not to put as the gatekeeper. She is brutal and certainly not kind about it. Soooo much to learn. I have never stopped learning. Though I learned not to make any kind of post - lol. I think it is a group worth staying in. They update the spreadsheet every year. That alone is worth it. If you are using iPhone, download the pdf version in iBooks. Search function works awesome!

Yes....in the beginning when I'd submit a post it would take weeks and then she pm'ed me saying the post was flagged. I'd need to change it and then resubmit,so I did and nothing again for weeks until I ended up deleting it.
The only time a post went through fast and issueless was when another moderator handled it.

So yeah,I've learned it's a read-only group as well.

The spreadsheet doesn't work well in my program. I'd basically looked on Sally Fallons site at what she recommended as low ox. What I like less about the spreadsheet is that it is also specific brands tested,which I don't get here anyway....and it's usually processed foods.

*edit* I haven't found a good k2 supplement yet,that I can get here,so I don't know if it does anything in regards to oxalates.

 

[Dutchie]

. I take plenty of sups - wish I could get everything I need in food. :-(

Sadly the same here.

 

[jet9]

My high oxalate journey has sent me to hell and I've lost over a year of my life from juicing celery (only for three weeks), followed eating a lot of spinach, nuts, other oxalates, etc. I've been to over 11 different docs (many specialists) and other health specialists, had numerous tests, labs, treatments in the last year.

I don't think this would be such a huge problem for many people, but for those with a connective tissue disorder - OR for those with ANY vascular weakness - I would AVOID high oxalates at all expense.

(Oh, and yes, my DNA does show a weakness for oxalate)

In retrospect I believe the extremely sharp shards, spears, crystals and other shapes of oxalates shredded through my tissue causing all kinds of problems from extreme ligament weakness causing cranio/cervical instability and all of those problems including intracranial hypertension, constant subluxation of my joints, severe muscle cramping because my ligaments were too weak........and wreaking havoc on my vascular system.
The vascular issue seems to be primarily effecting my brain - not something to mess around with. Trying to rule out temporal arteritis (again nothing to mess around with). Well, the brain issue is most concerning and annoying because it is very painful, effects my vision, etc. But I have developed varicose veins in my legs as well.

We have a family weakness of vascular issues, so I will never consume them in quantity. For now, I have dramatically increased my high quality MSM (which has helped my veins in the past), increased my iodine (which hopefully displaces oxalate), and have added in molecular hydrogen water which has helped immensely with symptoms and hopefully will help with cellular repair (lots of studies on this).

To anyone reducing oxalates, if you feel worse at one point, it is your body feeling safe enough to "dump" the extra oxalates. You can slow this down by consuming a few more. The best information is on Susan Owens' FB group Trying Low Oxalates. She has an amazing spread sheet with current correct amounts of oxalates in foods. Sally Norton is amazing too

+1 to avoiding high oxilate foods. Eating “super food” spinach gave me kidney stones.

 

[Momentum]

+1 to avoiding high oxilate foods. Eating “super food” spinach gave me kidney stones.

Yep, last year ago when it seemed everyone in the country was juicing an entire bunch of celery/day - well that started getting my ox bucket pretty full. I quite after 3 weeks because I wasn't feeling well. Then several months later, farmer's market season, I started in on Spinach than in the fall, I added many high ox super foods including nuts, seeds and the biggie for me Chai Tea. Wasn't even familiar with oxalates until they almost killed me. LOL

 

[Richiebogie]

One chart shows grapefruit has a little oxalate in it (24mg per fruit) and another chart shows grapefruit juice has none!

So the oxalate might all be in the flesh /pith.

This study shows that drinking 3/4 litre of grapefruit juice per day increases oxalate excreted in the urine by 50mg or so!

My thinking is that since only a small amount of oxalate consumed gets absorbed through the gut wall, that could be a significant amount of old calcium oxalate crystals in the body being dissolved and excreted via the urine!

This might work something like potassium malate (soluble) + calcium oxalate (solid) -> potassium oxalate (soluble) + calcium malate (soluble).

That is, if grapefruit juice contains potassium malate (or an equivalent soluble salt) then it might react with oxalate crystals in the body thus freeing up calcium to be reused properly, and letting the potassium oxalate get urinated away!

The study does note that epidemiological studies associate grapefruit juice with kidney stones but maybe that is because people who drink grapefruit juice tend to also eat spinach, rhubarb, cocoa etc.

American Urological Association

I have been squeezing a large ruby grapefruit every night for a few months! It only gives me 125ml of juice but it is quite tasty!

I also drink a bit of orange juice and lemon juice.

My persistent mouth ulcers finally went away when I stopped eating raw greens and chocolate, but now I am hoping to clean up any nasty crystals that Sally K warns about!

 

[Potato]

I don't know if this is oxalate dumping symptoms or what but suddenly my elbow and jaw started to hurt, they've been aching the whole day like crazy.

 

[reality]

Does anyone know if blueberries are high/low oxalate? I’m finding conflicting information. I know all other berries are, but I’m sure sally norton says they are low?

 

[Potato]

Does anyone know if blueberries are high/low oxalate? I’m finding conflicting information. I know all other berries are, but I’m sure sally norton says they are low?

They are very low in oxalates, only 2mg per 1/2 cup.

 

[Momentum]

Does anyone know if blueberries are high/low oxalate? I’m finding conflicting information. I know all other berries are, but I’m sure sally norton says they are low?

It is really worth the hoops to jump through to join the Trying Low Oxalate FB group - just to get their spreadsheet of foods. It's the largest and most accurate.

 

[Dutchie]

It is really worth the hoops to jump through to join the Trying Low Oxalate FB group - just to get their spreadsheet of foods. It's the largest and most accurate.

True....but I would caution that even some stuff on there varies/is inconsistent in results. Like papaya....it's been tested as low,medium and very high. So,in order to get their results you'd have to get the exact same products as them.
The chart is an indicator,but you're really your own testsubject....so try some blueberries and see how you react to them.

 

[reality]

True....but I would caution that even some stuff on there varies/is inconsistent in results. Like papaya....it's been tested as low,medium and very high. So,in order to get their results you'd have to get the exact same products as them.
The chart is an indicator,but you're really your own testsubject....so try some blueberries and see how you react to them.

it’s interesting the conflicting results in some foods. Perhaps ripeness and conditions they are grown effect different t foods?

 

[Dutchie]

it’s interesting the conflicting results in some foods. Perhaps ripeness and conditions they are grown effect different t foods?

most likely it does,so that's why you can't purely go off by the chart especially with produce.
Also organic in general is higher than conventionally grown,bc organic the plant has to produce its own defense mechanism.

 

[Dutchie]

Just found this log.....a very detailed look into someone dealing with oxalates.
I've seen that I do take quite a few supplements similar to the ones he mentioned. I started most of them,before I even knew about oxalates,but I intuitively felt a need for it.
Now....if only I could get an affordable k2 supplement without crap (and not from soy).

Bill Burley | Oxalate Diet

 

[Potato]

What do you guys think of vitamin d supplement regarding oxalate problems? Do you supplement d and does it help or make it worse?

 

[yerrag]

Anyone that likes antibiotics, like Peat does, and has oxalate issues, should consider the fact that antibiotics, as well as glyphosate, kill off the oxalobacter formigenes bacteria in the gut that breaks down oxalates. Maybe that is why more people are having issues these days with oxalates, since glyphosate and antibiotic use is rampant. I personally don't buy into Peat's love of antibiotics, they are weed killers, and when you spray weedkiller on your lawn, you kill off the grass as well, and the first thing to grow back is the weeds, this is quite evident with all the people that end up with fungal issues after antibiotic use. It only makes sense that maybe these natural bacteria, like the oxalobacter, are there for a purpose. Sterilizing the gut, as some here love to do, all for the purpose of reducing endotoxin, might very well be counter intuitive.

I think I may have accidentally stumbled into a way to know if I'm deficient in the microbes in the gut that break down oxalates.

After 2 weeks of 100mg doxy daily, followed by 2 weeks of 625mg Co-Amoxiclav, and then 7 weeks of 3x 500mg ZPak weekly, I was to drink a lot of black tea for its EGCG catechins for its biofilm disrupting ability.

Two weeks ago, I had a dental visit and my dentist told me I have a lot of tar in my teeth.

It has never happened to me, although I have never drank this much tea.

Do I may have to ask South Koreans in Quora to check if they experience tar on their teeth. I'm hoping they would say no, as it would mean that the kim hi they eat is keeping the microbes in place even as the tea they drink regularly has no effect on tarring the teeth.

Then I would ask Japanese and Taiwanese and Vietnamese the same thing. Since they don't regularly est fermented foods as much as Koreans, I expect them to say it's tarring their teeth.

Oh, I didn't want to give away the effect of antibiotics on these microbes, so I'd have to ask those whose teeth tars if they use antibiotics regularly.

Right now, I have no problems with oxalate toxicity. But I may soon if the antibiotics I took destroyed these microbes you're talking about.

Maybe some of us here could experiment on themselves as well to see if my hypothesis checks out.

 

[Blossom]

I think I may have accidentally stumbled into a way to know if I'm deficient in the microbes in the gut that break down oxalates.

After 2 weeks of 100mg doxy daily, followed by 2 weeks of 625mg Co-Amoxiclav, and then 7 weeks of 3x 500mg ZPak weekly, I was to drink a lot of black tea for its EGCG catechins for its biofilm disrupting ability.

Two weeks ago, I had a dental visit and my dentist told me I have a lot of tar in my teeth.

It has never happened to me, although I have never drank this much tea.

Do I may have to ask South Koreans in Quora to check if they experience tar on their teeth. I'm hoping they would say no, as it would mean that the kim hi they eat is keeping the microbes in place even as the tea they drink regularly has no effect on tarring the teeth.

Then I would ask Japanese and Taiwanese and Vietnamese the same thing. Since they don't regularly est fermented foods as much as Koreans, I expect them to say it's tarring their teeth.

Oh, I didn't want to give away the effect of antibiotics on these microbes, so I'd have to ask those whose teeth tars if they use antibiotics regularly.

Right now, I have no problems with oxalate toxicity. But I may soon if the antibiotics I took destroyed these microbes you're talking about.

Maybe some of us here could experiment on themselves as well to see if my hypothesis checks out.

I’m pretty sure it was the 50 day course of antibiotics I had to take 21 years ago that caused my issues. Recently I had to take 10 days of antibiotics and my interstitial cystitis and vulvodynia flared up despite not eating any oxalate whatsoever. I tried to post this in the TLO group to see if anyone had a similar experience but the post was never approved. I figured out what to do on my own though.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Oxalate content and calcium binding capacity of tea and herbal teas

"The potential of the soluble oxalate extracted from each tea to combine with calcium is shown in Table 1. If the tea is consumed with 25 mL non-fat milk (containing 160 mg Ca/100 mL) then, for a large majority of the teas, there is an excess capacity to bind the calcium in the milk."

Spoiler

"Steeping tea for different times and stirring the tea have been shown to have a significant effect on the oxalate content of the final extraction.[9]"

"The results from this experiment show that while a regular tea drinker would be consuming oxalate every day, the levels are modest when compared to the amounts of oxalate that can be found in other common foods. It would be very difficult to consume an excessive amount of soluble oxalate from the regular consumption of black tea without milk. The consumption of black tea with milk would mean that small amounts of oxalate would be absorbed on a daily basis and would place black tea in the low risk group of foods, as defined by Noonan and Savage.[1]"​

- Effect of Cooking on the Soluble and Insoluble Oxalate Content of Some New Zealand Foods

Spoiler

- Addition of calcium compounds to reduce soluble oxalate in a high oxalate food system

"Fresh spinach (Spinacia oleracea L.) was purchased the New World Supermarket, Lincoln, Canterbury, in September 2015. Soil, dead leaves and stalk ends were removed using a stainless steel knife and the remaining portions were chopped into 10 mm pieces and processed using a blender (NutriBullet, NBR-1207M, 600 W, Homeland Housewares LLC, Los Angeles, CA, USA) for 1.5 min at room temperature. All calcium additives were done in triplicate at the following rates: 0, 50, 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 mg/100 g of homogenised spinach along with 100 mL of high purity water (Barnstead International, Dubuque, Iowa, USA, 18.0 MOcm). Four different experiments were carried out using additions of calcium chloride, calcium sulphate, calcium citrate and calcium carbonate (Table 1). Each conical flask was then placed in a shaking water bath at 25 C for 30 min."

Spoiler

Killcium craponate never failing to disappoint, but these differences might disappear during digestion.