Oxalate Toxicity

[Blossom]

thank you!

You’re welcome. Best wishes to you.

 

[RWilly]

a 1959 study: Endogenous Oxalate Synthesis and Glycine, Serine, Deoxypyridoxine Interrelationships in Vitamin B6-deficient Rats*
http://www.jbc.org/content/234/9/2391.full.pdf

Looks like a vitamin B6 deficiency may play a role and that glycine can also turn into oxalates:

"The quantity of endogenous oxalate produced in these experiments must be related to the amount of oxalate precursors ingested and the degree of vitamin B6, deficiency produced. It appears from this study and that of Calhoun et al. (7) in vitamin B6-deficient rats and the work of Archer et al. (8) and Scowen
in cases of primary hyperosaluria, that a considerable amount of urinary oxalate may be of endogenous origin and derived in great part from glycine.

Oxalate has been shown to be formed from glycine via glyoxylic acid (10, 11) and inhibition of the system described by Cammarata and Cohen (12), i.e. glyoxylic acid plus glutamic acid c) glycine plus a-ketoglutaricacid, could result in an accumulation of glyoxylic acid with increased oxalate formation. The slightly decreased oxalate excretion of some of the deficient groups as the first experiment progressed, may have been due to lessened consumption of the glycine-containing diets when the deficiency became intensified."

 

[Blossom]

a 1959 study: Endogenous Oxalate Synthesis and Glycine, Serine, Deoxypyridoxine Interrelationships in Vitamin B6-deficient Rats*
http://www.jbc.org/content/234/9/2391.full.pdf

Looks like a vitamin B6 deficiency may play a role and that glycine can also turn into oxalates:

"The quantity of endogenous oxalate produced in these experiments must be related to the amount of oxalate precursors ingested and the degree of vitamin B6, deficiency produced. It appears from this study and that of Calhoun et al. (7) in vitamin B6-deficient rats and the work of Archer et al. (8) and Scowen
in cases of primary hyperosaluria, that a considerable amount of urinary oxalate may be of endogenous origin and derived in great part from glycine.

Oxalate has been shown to be formed from glycine via glyoxylic acid (10, 11) and inhibition of the system described by Cammarata and Cohen (12), i.e. glyoxylic acid plus glutamic acid c) glycine plus a-ketoglutaricacid, could result in an accumulation of glyoxylic acid with increased oxalate formation. The slightly decreased oxalate excretion of some of the deficient groups as the first experiment progressed, may have been due to lessened consumption of the glycine-containing diets when the deficiency became intensified."

Thank you!

 

[Dave Clark]

This video suggests that vitamin B6 and B1 deficiency is the reason glycine would get converted to oxalate, not that it is the only reason, but probably the major reason:

 

[RWilly]

This video suggests that vitamin B6 and B1 deficiency is the reason glycine would get converted to oxalate, not that it is the only reason, but probably the major reason:

Excellent video.

All this makes me think I need to include nutritional yeast in my diet a little more frequently.

 

[Amazoniac]

View attachment 15792

Dependence of Oxalate Absorption on the Daily Calcium Intake

Thank you for sharing.

I just realized that the standard diet provided 800 mg of Ki. For more, it was supplemented; for less, it was reduced from diet. Therefore any inhibition on the graph up to 800 mg is from diet, whereas 1200 and 1800 mg is with additional killcium.

In cases where killcium supplementation was needed, both toxins in question were given together. Sodium oxalate was given in an amount that provided the equivalent of 34 mg of labelled oxalic acid, however it was only one dose.

All supplements was given around breakfast, which was low in food killcium and stayed as such regardless of how diet was changed. To explain their straight line, it's either the lingering effect of killcium from previous day or something that could compete with it.

Given that the breakfast composition was fixed and the uptake of oxalate varied nevertheless, it suggests that the overall content of Ki in the diet matters, rather than immediate inhibition.

I suspect that this is because killcium is so toxic that it damages the intestines according to the amount, leading to maladsorption of everything up to a point where it conflicts with the body's last effort to survive. Extremely toxic!!1

 

[Blossom]

Good talk on oxalates by Sally Norton.

 

[Lollipop2]

Good talk on oxalates by Sally Norton.

This was a good video. Super interesting about the different shapes of the crystals. Also when she mentioned in the Q & A that if you have recently eaten a high quantity of oxalate foods that are still in “suspension” of sorts and then suddenly go low oxalate. All that free oxalate might rush out of the system at once causing serious issues. It drove home the idea that reducing consumption gradually is of importance.

 

[Blossom]

This was a good video. Super interesting about the different shapes of the crystals. Also when she mentioned in the Q & A that if you have recently eaten a high quantity of oxalate foods that are still in “suspension” of sorts and then suddenly go low oxalate. All that free oxalate might rush out of the system at once causing serious issues. It drove home the idea that reducing consumption gradually is of importance.

Yes, better safe than sorry for sure!

 

[LUH 3417]

Found this article by an acupuncturist which challenges Sally Norton’s theory indirectly. I listened to Sally’s ideas in a few different podcasts and it all sounded very interesting and promising, but also reminds me of all the other restrictive approaches I’ve tried in my life where x was causing all the issues and all I had to do to get better was eliminate x but it would take ten years.

Kidney and Urinary Stone Prevention and Cure | Acupuncture Integrated

Oxalic acid is found in many plants and vegetables, particularly the buckwheat family, and the Oxalis family, but is also used in industrial products such as stain removers, some household cleaners, and auto waxes. Industrial oxalic acids are more likely to accumulate in our liver, since they do not break down as easily. Oxalic acid intake in food, by itself, probably has little to do with excess oxalic acid, which might accumulate in cases of hyperoxaluria. Primary hyperoxaluria is due to an alterations in the amino acid alanine and the D-glycerate dehydrogenase enzyme, and the source of the metabolic dsyfunction is thought to be the liver. Avoidance of liver stress, by reducing the intake of pharmaceutical drugs and alcohol consumption when appropriate, may help improve the liver metabolism. Simple avoidance of foods with oxalic acid has not been proven to be effective.

 

[somuch4food]

Found this article by an acupuncturist which challenges Sally Norton’s theory indirectly. I listened to Sally’s ideas in a few different podcasts and it all sounded very interesting and promising, but also reminds me of all the other restrictive approaches I’ve tried in my life where x was causing all the issues and all I had to do to get better was eliminate x but it would take ten years.

Kidney and Urinary Stone Prevention and Cure | Acupuncture Integrated

Oxalic acid is found in many plants and vegetables, particularly the buckwheat family, and the Oxalis family, but is also used in industrial products such as stain removers, some household cleaners, and auto waxes. Industrial oxalic acids are more likely to accumulate in our liver, since they do not break down as easily. Oxalic acid intake in food, by itself, probably has little to do with excess oxalic acid, which might accumulate in cases of hyperoxaluria. Primary hyperoxaluria is due to an alterations in the amino acid alanine and the D-glycerate dehydrogenase enzyme, and the source of the metabolic dsyfunction is thought to be the liver. Avoidance of liver stress, by reducing the intake of pharmaceutical drugs and alcohol consumption when appropriate, may help improve the liver metabolism. Simple avoidance of foods with oxalic acid has not been proven to be effective.

Sally Norton does touch on the environmental and pharmaceutical factors. I also think some of our new dietary habits are not helping. People are pounding spinach because it's a super food, but when you look at traditional recipes, it's often paired with dairy. Probably to offset the oxalic acid.

Nuts also used to be difficult to eat in a meaningful amount because removing the shell was time consuming, but now they're used in almost all prepackaged snacks since they have a healthy aura for marketing. Not to mention nut flours...

I've personnally gone back and forth with this theory and when my oxalate intake goes too high, I start to get random pains especially in the back, knees and feet and the skin on my hands become dry. My digestion also stalls, I feel stuffed faster and can't eat huge meals and need to eat thoughout the day.

I'm not going super low either since it's not practical. I keep potatoes and tomatoes in my diet for example.

 

[LUH 3417]

Sally Norton does touch on the environmental and pharmaceutical factors. I also think some of our new dietary habits are not helping. People are pounding spinach because it's a super food, but when you look at traditional recipes, it's often paired with dairy. Probably to offset the oxalic acid.

Nuts also used to be difficult to eat in a meaningful amount because removing the shell was time consuming, but now they're used in almost all prepackaged snacks since they have a healthy aura for marketing. Not to mention nut flours...

I've personnally gone back and forth with this theory and when my oxalate intake goes too high, I start to get random pains especially in the back, knees and feet and the skin on my hands become dry. My digestion also stalls, I feel stuffed faster and can't eat huge meals and need to eat thoughout the day.

I'm not going super low either since it's not practical. I keep potatoes and tomatoes in my diet for example.

I was more concerned with the idea that variation in dietary intake of oxalate would not change much of the problems caused by difficulty processing oxalates. Also I haven’t been able to find a guideline for ridding oneself of these oxalates. She says don’t stop eating all oxalates, but it will take a long time to get rid of them. She mentions a woman who did the carnivore diet and had crystals coming out of her leg.

 

[Dave Clark]

Found this article by an acupuncturist which challenges Sally Norton’s theory indirectly. I listened to Sally’s ideas in a few different podcasts and it all sounded very interesting and promising, but also reminds me of all the other restrictive approaches I’ve tried in my life where x was causing all the issues and all I had to do to get better was eliminate x but it would take ten years.

Kidney and Urinary Stone Prevention and Cure | Acupuncture Integrated

Oxalic acid is found in many plants and vegetables, particularly the buckwheat family, and the Oxalis family, but is also used in industrial products such as stain removers, some household cleaners, and auto waxes. Industrial oxalic acids are more likely to accumulate in our liver, since they do not break down as easily. Oxalic acid intake in food, by itself, probably has little to do with excess oxalic acid, which might accumulate in cases of hyperoxaluria. Primary hyperoxaluria is due to an alterations in the amino acid alanine and the D-glycerate dehydrogenase enzyme, and the source of the metabolic dsyfunction is thought to be the liver. Avoidance of liver stress, by reducing the intake of pharmaceutical drugs and alcohol consumption when appropriate, may help improve the liver metabolism. Simple avoidance of foods with oxalic acid has not been proven to be effective.

This makes sense. I've always felt that the thing that compromises our ability to eat these traditional foods is the toxicity of our modern world, so the liver connection makes sense. The experts keep focusing on what to eat and what not to eat, but when you step back and realize that for ions these foods where consumed with little problems, you cant help believe the mitigating factors are the chemicals, lack of nutrients, etc. that comprise most of our food supply, plus that our organs have been stressed with toxins, we can no longer tolerate foods that were traditionally eaten without side effects. Understanding that it doesn't change the fact that we are having problems with certain foods, I don't believe it is a fault of the food, per se, just how our bodies are dealing with it. We all just have to find out what our bodies are okay with in this complex world. I often hear stories of people who clean up their bodies through detoxing, proper nutrients, etc. talk about how they can eat things they couldn't eat for years.

 

[somuch4food]

This makes sense. I've always felt that the thing that compromises our ability to eat these traditional foods is the toxicity of our modern world, so the liver connection makes sense. The experts keep focusing on what to eat and what not to eat, but when you step back and realize that for ions these foods where consumed with little problems, you cant help believe the mitigating factors are the chemicals, lack of nutrients, etc. that comprise most of our food supply, plus that our organs have been stressed with toxins, we can no longer tolerate foods that were traditionally eaten without side effects. Understanding that it doesn't change the fact that we are having problems with certain foods, I don't believe it is a fault of the food, per se, just how our bodies are dealing with it. We all just have to find out what our bodies are okay with in this complex world. I often hear stories of people who clean up their bodies through detoxing, proper nutrients, etc. talk about how they can eat things they couldn't eat for years.

Yeah. The hard part is balancing living and healing. I don't want to be super restrictive, but I also want to get better.

I will eat high oxalates from time to time, but my staples are low to moderate. I'm also trying to add therapeutic supplements or habits like Epsom salt bath, B1, B6, magnesium citrate...

 

[Lollipop2]

For me it is quite easy to maintain a low and medium oxalate consumption because I mostly eat in the low to medium oxalate range, even before learning about oxalate toxicity. My main offenders were:

*tea - dropped that and back to occasional coffee.

*Chocolate - switched to white chocolate; occasionally have a yummmy dark chocolate.

*Pecans - Once a month or so I bake a banana bread with pecans. That simply turns a low oxalate day into a medium oxalate day.

*Potatoes - switched from russet to new baby red potatoes which are low oxalate.

*Cinnamon - Ceylon powder - haven’t figured out an alternative that tastes the same; extract doesn’t. So I will keep it in and might make that particular day I eat my apple cake a medium oxalate day.

Fairly easy for me and not really restrictive. I think the small effort I am making is worth it over keeping my eyes closed to the matter.

I am not worrying about the supplements and do not feel the need to pursue any more than my normal balance of minerals.

 

[LUH 3417]

For me it is quite easy to maintain a low and medium oxalate consumption because I mostly eat in the low to medium oxalate range, even before learning about oxalate toxicity. My main offenders were:

*tea - dropped that and back to occasional coffee.

*Chocolate - switched to white chocolate; occasionally have a yummmy dark chocolate.

*Pecans - Once a month or so I bake a banana bread with pecans. That simply turns a low oxalate day into a medium oxalate day.

*Potatoes - switched from russet to new baby red potatoes which are low oxalate.

*Cinnamon - Ceylon powder - haven’t figured out an alternative that tastes the same; extract doesn’t. So I will keep it in and might make that particular day I eat my apple cake a medium oxalate day.

Fairly easy for me and not really restrictive. I think the small effort I am making is worth it over keeping my eyes closed to the matter.

I am not worrying about the supplements and do not feel the need to pursue any more than my normal balance of minerals.

Can you share you apple cake recipe? Have a bunch of apples that I don’t feel like eating and cake sounds like a good idea.

 

[Lollipop2]

Can you share you apple cake recipe? Have a bunch of apples that I don’t feel like eating and cake sounds like a good idea.

Sure! Let me type it out and post here later today or tomorrow morning. It is soooo yummmy.

 

[Lollipop2]

Sure! Let me type it out and post here later today or tomorrow morning. It is soooo yummmy.

@raysputin Here is the recipe. Let me know if it makes sense. Just typed it up from memory. The numbers in parentheses at the end of each ingredient is approximate oxalate count.

Apple Cake

Ingredients:

*1/2 teaspoon sea salt (0.16)

*Used Einkorn All Purpose flour. 1 cup + 2 tablespoons = 128gms + 6 gms = 134gms (11.25)

3 large Organic pastured eggs - room temperature - (0.00)

1 cup Organic raw cane sugar - 200gms (8.20)

*2 teaspoons ground Ceylon Cinnamon (1 tsp 61.36) (122.72)

*2 Teaspoons Vanilla - Nielsen and Massey Madagascar Vanilla (0.00)

*1 tablespoon grass fed butter (to make “crust”) Used One tablespoon butter to grease pie pan extra buttery (nice and buttery helps make a yummy “crust”). (0.00)

*2-3 medium Apples or I used one Large Asian Pear to make 4 cups of cut pieces. (1/2 cup 3.05) (24.04)

Total Oxalates: 166.73 ; one slice = 20.84

Directions:

*Grease a normal ceramic 9”pie pan with butter.

*Preheat oven to 350 degrees.

*Peel and cut apples (or Asian pear) into bite size pieces. Around four cups total. Main goal is to have uniform size if you can.

*Measure the flour and set aside. I use a scale measuring grams. It is way more accurate than guesstimating “one cup”.

*Whisk together room temperature eggs, sugar, vanilla, cinnamon and sea salt for 5 min. This requires old fashioned elbow grease, a large bowl and a whisk.

*Once the egg and sugar has completely blended and formed sort of a thickness, slowly fold/ mix in the flour. It will be hard to blend the flour in because of how the sugar and egg have come together. Eventually it will all blend in well. Just keep going until it does.

*Add in the cut apples (or Asian pears) Stir well and pour batter into pie pan.

*Bake for one hour ten minutes.

*I used a spatula to separate the cake from the sides of the pie pan just after it finished baking.

*Let cool for ten or fifteen minutes, cut and enjoy!

Yummmy! I can imagine it would be delicious with vanilla ice cream!!

Here is a photo of a recent one I made with Asian pear:

 

[LUH 3417]

@raysputin Here is the recipe. Let me know if it makes sense. Just typed it up from memory. The numbers in parentheses at the end of each ingredient is approximate oxalate count.

Apple Cake

Ingredients:

*1/2 teaspoon sea salt (0.16)

*Used Einkorn All Purpose flour. 1 cup + 2 tablespoons = 128gms + 6 gms = 134gms (11.25)

3 large Organic pastured eggs - room temperature - (0.00)

1 cup Organic raw cane sugar - 200gms (8.20)

*2 teaspoons ground Ceylon Cinnamon (1 tsp 61.36) (122.72)

*2 Teaspoons Vanilla - Nielsen and Massey Madagascar Vanilla (0.00)

*1 tablespoon grass fed butter (to make “crust”) Used One tablespoon butter to grease pie pan extra buttery (nice and buttery helps make a yummy “crust”). (0.00)

*2-3 medium Apples or I used one Large Asian Pear to make 4 cups of cut pieces. (1/2 cup 3.05) (24.04)

Total Oxalates: 166.73 ; one slice = 20.84

Directions:

*Grease a normal ceramic 9”pie pan with butter.

*Preheat oven to 350 degrees.

*Peel and cut apples (or Asian pear) into bite size pieces. Around four cups total. Main goal is to have uniform size if you can.

*Measure the flour and set aside. I use a scale measuring grams. It is way more accurate than guesstimating “one cup”.

*Whisk together room temperature eggs, sugar, vanilla, cinnamon and sea salt for 5 min. This requires old fashioned elbow grease, a large bowl and a whisk.

*Once the egg and sugar has completely blended and formed sort of a thickness, slowly fold/ mix in the flour. It will be hard to blend the flour in because of how the sugar and egg have come together. Eventually it will all blend in well. Just keep going until it does.

*Add in the cut apples (or Asian pears) Stir well and pour batter into pie pan.

*Bake for one hour ten minutes.

*I used a spatula to separate the cake from the sides of the pie pan just after it finished baking.

*Let cool for ten or fifteen minutes, cut and enjoy!

Yummmy! I can imagine it would be delicious with vanilla ice cream!!

Here is a photo of a recent one I made with Asian pear:

View attachment 15938

Thank you so much!!

 

[Blossom]

@raysputin Here is the recipe. Let me know if it makes sense. Just typed it up from memory. The numbers in parentheses at the end of each ingredient is approximate oxalate count.

Apple Cake

Ingredients:

*1/2 teaspoon sea salt (0.16)

*Used Einkorn All Purpose flour. 1 cup + 2 tablespoons = 128gms + 6 gms = 134gms (11.25)

3 large Organic pastured eggs - room temperature - (0.00)

1 cup Organic raw cane sugar - 200gms (8.20)

*2 teaspoons ground Ceylon Cinnamon (1 tsp 61.36) (122.72)

*2 Teaspoons Vanilla - Nielsen and Massey Madagascar Vanilla (0.00)

*1 tablespoon grass fed butter (to make “crust”) Used One tablespoon butter to grease pie pan extra buttery (nice and buttery helps make a yummy “crust”). (0.00)

*2-3 medium Apples or I used one Large Asian Pear to make 4 cups of cut pieces. (1/2 cup 3.05) (24.04)

Total Oxalates: 166.73 ; one slice = 20.84

Directions:

*Grease a normal ceramic 9”pie pan with butter.

*Preheat oven to 350 degrees.

*Peel and cut apples (or Asian pear) into bite size pieces. Around four cups total. Main goal is to have uniform size if you can.

*Measure the flour and set aside. I use a scale measuring grams. It is way more accurate than guesstimating “one cup”.

*Whisk together room temperature eggs, sugar, vanilla, cinnamon and sea salt for 5 min. This requires old fashioned elbow grease, a large bowl and a whisk.

*Once the egg and sugar has completely blended and formed sort of a thickness, slowly fold/ mix in the flour. It will be hard to blend the flour in because of how the sugar and egg have come together. Eventually it will all blend in well. Just keep going until it does.

*Add in the cut apples (or Asian pears) Stir well and pour batter into pie pan.

*Bake for one hour ten minutes.

*I used a spatula to separate the cake from the sides of the pie pan just after it finished baking.

*Let cool for ten or fifteen minutes, cut and enjoy!

Yummmy! I can imagine it would be delicious with vanilla ice cream!!

Here is a photo of a recent one I made with Asian pear:

View attachment 15938

Wow, that looks delicious!