In So Much Pain And Scared, Getting Worse Rapidly

[energyandstruct]

Ok, I went through all pages. At this point you must be fed up of poetry, so I feel that it's better to skip to practical things:

You've mentioned that the effects from magnesium weren't impressive. Which forms did you try? Multiple doses totaling 1 g/day aren't unreasonable for recovery, especially due to the use of vit D supplements.

Have you ever tried vitamin C (1 g spread throughout the day)? Selenium (60 mcg)? Zinc (10 mg)? Manganese (5 mg)? Molybdenum (<50 mcg)? Some of these aren't sustainable in supplemental form, but it's still useful to try them just to grasp if they aren't missing.

You also mentioned the garden. What about cooked greens with your potatoes and cheese? It should be fine to consume broccoli and related foods once in a while, especially given that you now have thyroid hormones at reach.

I would discontinue the fat-soluble vitamins supplements for a while, they can be tricky (in my experience in this order starting from least: K, E, A-D.. that's a tie).

I have the impression that raw carrot ribbons don't provide enough vitamin A if your needs are very high. Have you tried to include cooked foods that are high in b-carotenes? Other than the greens (which usually have the benefit of providing good amounts of K), some slices of cooked carrots, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, butternut squash, red bell pepper, and so on. Cantaloupes, mangoes, papayas and other imaginary fruits can also be great.

Imbalances in vitamins A, E, and C can impair A's metabolism. It's good to have E and C, but also B12, in supplemental form to have more control over the situation.

Carrot-apple juice is also a tasty alternative, has you tried it? burtan is font of it!

If you're already low on vit D, it can make it worse. Your headaches from sun exposure are probably a clue that there are other deficiencies involved, usually vitamins A, B or C.

And I have to comment that it's unfortunate that sunraiser was ignored.

i wanted to make magnesium bicarbonate water, but didn't have energy to, so I've just been taking doctor's best chelated magnesium. i think it's magnesium glycinate, and I take the recommended dose.

I haven't tried zinc supplementation, but it sounds like something I coudl be deficient in. I don't think it's the cause of all my problems or I would feel cured when I eat oysters, but maybe it explains odd responses to thyroid..
cantaloupes and mangoes and papaya sound good to me, easily digestable fruits is kind o f what I feel like eating if anything

I have had a series of days of bad reaction to thyroid which involved a very fluish like symptom with cheekbones flushing and feeling like my skin and forehead were on fire and feeling hot and dry. But each time I measured my temp and it was normal , and pulse wasn't high, but still I could only stand it with an ice pack on my forehead. Very odd. I know people with CFS have overheated brains, which is why I'm a little confused about wanting to increase temps.
Anyway, each time I got this I really didn't want to eat starch especially or protein, felt repulsed by normal food, but chugged a big amount of juice, like a really big amount, and some with salt too. I don't know if this is useful information. But that was what my intuition was telling me I needed.

But I can't seem to stop thyroid totally without getting pain, so I'm just trying to use the smallest amounts possible while trying to find out what's causing the problem. Idk if it's endotoxin or vitamin A deficiency or what.

Do you think bloodwork for all those vitamins is adequate? I think I have tried all of them separately without much effect. I did like extra ascorbic acid in my gatorade/juice when I felt sick and feverish, but I don't know whether that's just b/c the taste, or whether I intuitively felt i needed it.

I didn't mean to ignore anyone. I've genuinely been really tired, despite that I'm trying to look over all these answers and sort through what I think will be the best solutions. I have tried things poeple mentioned in the thread, and tried to apply some of ray's concepts. Seriously so tired rn that I am typing with my eyes closed lol.

I have some dandruff, not somethign I tend to notice, but idk if that says anything about nutrient status.

 

[energyandstruct]

Do you have any thyroid lab levels you could share? What's your waking temperature?
Sorry if you've posted this somewhere already, I may have missed it

I havn'et had thyroid labs done for a while. The last time I got them done was four months or so ago, and I was pretty sick at that point and they were totally normal. TSH at about 2, free t3 and t4 near the high end of the range.
waking temp is normally about 97.1

 

[energyandstruct]

I think it's odd that both the sunlgiht and the thyroid (the latter only very recently) caused dizziness and fatigue, and I wonder if it has something to do with cholesterol or liver function. Since ray says low cholesterol with thyroid supplementation can get worse and cause these symptoms. he says it could happen from eating too much starch instead of sugars. I don't know if I eat extreme enough for that to happen, and I tend to drink juice daily... but maybe I have it for some other reason.

 

[Runenight201]

A suggestion to look into, what about cyproheptadine?

I personally have never used the drug, and I don’t really know how it could react with your specific situation, but the only reason why I recommend it is because you seem to have an appetite problem.

If you’re not eating a lot and then taking thyroid and pushing your metabolism to the next level, and not providing enough pure raw fuel, I could see that causing a lot of problems. Normally I would think the appetite would upregulate to signal a need for energy, but in your compromised state perhaps that’s not occurring, and instead you are having the negative symptoms you are describing.

I have seen reports here that cypro powerfully stimulates the appetite, and I think you need that. I’ve never heard of anyone in good health who doesn’t have a healthy appetite. If not that then maybe marijuana, if not that then calorically dense tasty af fast food (a la Matt Stone style).

You can focus on micronutrients and thyroid all day long, but if you’re not feeding your body sufficient energy it can never heal.

 

[Amazoniac]

i wanted to make magnesium bicarbonate water, but didn't have energy to, so I've just been taking doctor's best chelated magnesium. i think it's magnesium glycinate, and I take the recommended dose.

I haven't tried zinc supplementation, but it sounds like something I coudl be deficient in. I don't think it's the cause of all my problems or I would feel cured when I eat oysters, but maybe it explains odd responses to thyroid..
cantaloupes and mangoes and papaya sound good to me, easily digestable fruits is kind o f what I feel like eating if anything

I have had a series of days of bad reaction to thyroid which involved a very fluish like symptom with cheekbones flushing and feeling like my skin and forehead were on fire and feeling hot and dry. But each time I measured my temp and it was normal , and pulse wasn't high, but still I could only stand it with an ice pack on my forehead. Very odd. I know people with CFS have overheated brains, which is why I'm a little confused about wanting to increase temps.
Anyway, each time I got this I really didn't want to eat starch especially or protein, felt repulsed by normal food, but chugged a big amount of juice, like a really big amount, and some with salt too. I don't know if this is useful information. But that was what my intuition was telling me I needed.

But I can't seem to stop thyroid totally without getting pain, so I'm just trying to use the smallest amounts possible while trying to find out what's causing the problem. Idk if it's endotoxin or vitamin A deficiency or what.

Do you think bloodwork for all those vitamins is adequate? I think I have tried all of them separately without much effect. I did like extra ascorbic acid in my gatorade/juice when I felt sick and feverish, but I don't know whether that's just b/c the taste, or whether I intuitively felt i needed it.

I didn't mean to ignore anyone. I've genuinely been really tired, despite that I'm trying to look over all these answers and sort through what I think will be the best solutions. I have tried things poeple mentioned in the thread, and tried to apply some of ray's concepts. Seriously so tired rn that I am typing with my eyes closed lol.

I have some dandruff, not somethign I tend to notice, but idk if that says anything about nutrient status.

I had to edit this post because the magnesium serving from Doctor's the Best is two tables and they label it according to the amount of elemental magnesium. It is providing you 200 mg, but this can be far from sufficient if you consider poor absorption and retention. Many people only find relief with much more than that but spread throughout the day.
Prescribed for Life and Seeking Health sell magnesium malate. It's one of the forms that are worth trying which doesn't require preparation.

In my experience vit C can deplete some of the missing trace minerals further. It can explain why you didn't carve it.

Is it possible for you to track for a week your nutrition on Cron-o-meter? It should give you some clues on what to do.

Lack of appetite can be easily explained by lack of micronutrients, and it is a mistake to increase calories without them. I would not bother with cyproheptadine.

Piecing vitamins doesn't usually work, all of them must be presented at the same time (especially most of the B-vitamins). But with some trace minerals this can be useful.

 

[S-VV]

i feel like giving up honestly, i feel close to suicide. people weren't meant to live like this

If it consoles you, I too have CFS and have been close to suicide many times.

 

[sweetpeat]

Is it possible for you to track for a week your nutrition on Cron-o-meter? It should give you some clues on what to do.

I agree. Please find out how much your eating.

You could try swapping one of your cynomel doses with another 1/8 of cynoplus. That way you'd be taking about the same amount of t3 while increasing your t4 a bit. Just to see how it feels. If it's no good, you can always go back to current dosage. But finding the right dosage of thyroid takes a lot of trial and error.

 

[energyandstruct]

A suggestion to look into, what about cyproheptadine?

I personally have never used the drug, and I don’t really know how it could react with your specific situation, but the only reason why I recommend it is because you seem to have an appetite problem.

If you’re not eating a lot and then taking thyroid and pushing your metabolism to the next level, and not providing enough pure raw fuel, I could see that causing a lot of problems. Normally I would think the appetite would upregulate to signal a need for energy, but in your compromised state perhaps that’s not occurring, and instead you are having the negative symptoms you are describing.

I have seen reports here that cypro powerfully stimulates the appetite, and I think you need that. I’ve never heard of anyone in good health who doesn’t have a healthy appetite. If not that then maybe marijuana, if not that then calorically dense tasty af fast food (a la Matt Stone style).

You can focus on micronutrients and thyroid all day long, but if you’re not feeding your body sufficient energy it can never heal.

i've taken cypro for sleep and it calms down my pain etc a little bit. i went through a period of trying to force myself to eat more or eat really calorically dense stuff like haagen daas but that didn't help so much, my low appetite I don't think is a signalling problem, but actually sign of low metabolism.

Yeah I would think thyroid would increase my appetite---and it did at first. Unfortunately i didn't take really detailed notes, but for the first few weeks, it generally caused good reactions and increased appetite. Now I'm tapered down to a very small dose (a mcg of t3 in the am, and then two mcg in the pm) and I still get negative symptoms when I take it, and yet I still keep taking it, mainly because I feel awful if I don't take it. The only thing that would help with the pain when not on thyroid is progestE or coffee, and i'm out of progestE.
Yeah now I try and make sure and get juice at least b/c high calorie but when i feel like this I don't have an appetite, that's why I try and chug liquid calories, which def. helps some

 

[energyandstruct]

I had to edit this post because the magnesium serving from Doctor's the Best is two tables and they label it according to the amount of elemental magnesium. It is providing you 200 mg, but this can be far from sufficient if you consider poor absorption and retention. Many people only find relief with much more than that but spread throughout the day.
Prescribed for Life and Seeking Health sell magnesium malate. It's one of the forms that are worth trying which doesn't require preparation.

In my experience vit C can deplete some of the missing trace minerals further. It can explain why you didn't carve it.

Is it possible for you to track for a week your nutrition on Cron-o-meter? It should give you some clues on what to do.

Lack of appetite can be easily explained by lack of micronutrients, and it is a mistake to increase calories without them. I would not bother with cyproheptadine.

Piecing vitamins doesn't usually work, all of them must be presented at the same time (especially most of the B-vitamins). But with some trace minerals this can be useful.

ok i will do cronometer.

I have tried a bunch of different supplements and I am wondering if any of my symptoms correlate to any specific lack. maybe it's just zinc. maybe vitamin a

 

[Runenight201]

Ah gotcha.

Too many liquid calories has always made me feel off, and I usually have always had to combine with solid food to make it feel balanced. It took me a bit to recognize this connection. Fruit juice can be a gross offender, unless paired with a salty meal or I’ve seriously stressed my body through intense exercise. If you’re not frequently urinating tho then I believe your body is handling it just fine.

Having a varied source of foods to draw nutrients from also helps with appetite imo. While just conjecturing on this, the psychological and physiological hypothesis for this makes sense to me. Different foods have slightly different nutrient profiles, and so provide the body with slightly different ratios of nutrients it needs, and so appetite is stimulated accordingly. The more monotonous my diet becomes, the worse I end up feeling, while the more varied it is, the better I feel.

That’s at least my experience in a somewhat healthy, yet not ideal, state. For someone who may be in a more compromised state, I’m not quite sure about all the more nuanced suboptimal blocks and functioning that could be occurring. Definitely supplementing where your diet is deficient is 100% going to help, or using cronometer to at least be see where you are lacking and what foods you should consume more frequently to make up the slack. For me magnesium and zinc were big culprits.

 

[sweetpeat]

Yeah I would think thyroid would increase my appetite---and it did at first. Unfortunately i didn't take really detailed notes, but for the first few weeks, it generally caused good reactions and increased appetite. Now I'm tapered down to a very small dose (a mcg of t3 in the am, and then two mcg in the pm) and I still get negative symptoms when I take it, and yet I still keep taking it, mainly because I feel awful if I don't take it. The only thing that would help with the pain when not on thyroid is progestE or coffee, and i'm out of progestE.

Ok my bad, I didn't realize you were trying to taper down the thyroid when I suggested an increase. It's just that the way you described how thyroid helped at first then didn't after a couple of weeks is pretty typical on such a low dose of t4. It often means you should increase the dose. And it makes sense that progesterone would make you feel better as well since it helps utilize the thyroid hormones. Also, coffee can be a surrogate for thyroid to a certain degree.

 

[energyandstruct]

Ok my bad, I didn't realize you were trying to taper down the thyroid when I suggested an increase. It's just that the way you described how thyroid helped at first then didn't after a couple of weeks is pretty typical on such a low dose of t4. It often means you should increase the dose. And it makes sense that progesterone would make you feel better as well since it helps utilize the thyroid hormones. Also, coffee can be a surrogate for thyroid to a certain degree.

I eventually want to try more thyroid, even soon, but i need to taper off it just so I can see if it was really the thyroid causing that weird horrible feverish symptoms (i'm not sure it is, could be LPS/gut stuff). It would be werid for these super small doses to cause me to go hyper, but I need to be sure, do some labs for cholesterol, etc.

 

[energyandstruct]

Anyone have tooth health general tips? This is perhaps not as important as my other questions, but due to being really tired and forgetful I forget to brush teeth for up to a week at a time a lot of the time. This didn't use to happen as bad. Somehow despite this I don't have any cavities which is like a miracle, so I want to get back on top of this before it gets bad. I guess just remembering to take care of it is the most important thing, but what about some other ray peat tips for tooth health? I take some vitamin k, drink milk, and I just pulled with coconut oil for the first time

 

[S-VV]

Do you sometimes get an acidic like feeling in the gut, distinct from lactic acidosis in the breathing muscles (diaphragm)?

 

[energyandstruct]

Do you sometimes get an acidic like feeling in the gut, distinct from lactic acidosis in the breathing muscles (diaphragm)?

I sometimes get both. although it's not really like acid reflux from acidic foods, which i've had earlier in my life. It's more like severe stomach pain that may be bacterial? usually upper gastric area not lower

 

[Runenight201]

Overrated imo, unless you have poor mouth salivation, bacterial overgrowth, insufficient dietary calcium, and improper calcium storage.

So avoiding mouth breathing, having a healthy metabolism, and taking vitamin K2/D should avoid the need for really any dental care, except occasional flossing for when food particles get stuck in between teeth.

Anecdotally, people have stated that their plaque build up on their teeth is eliminated with k2 supplementation.

 

[S-VV]

I sometimes get both. although it's not really like acid reflux from acidic foods, which i've had earlier in my life. It's more like severe stomach pain that may be bacterial? usually upper gastric area not lower

Oh, it definitely has nothing to do with gastric acid. I believe it comes from the long intestine, which lies adjacent to the stomach, so it can be confused.

Whenever I feel this acidic feeling, about 3-5 minutes later I will get a lactic acidosis feeling in my major muscles, for example the legs, even when lying down and not moving

 

[S-VV]

The best thing I have found for this is a Japanese probiotic called Miyarisan (C. Butycurum). It converts lactic acid to butyrate.

 

[energyandstruct]

The best thing I have found for this is a Japanese probiotic called Miyarisan (C. Butycurum). It converts lactic acid to butyrate.

v interesting. Peat not a fan of probiotics but I'm trying to be heterodox and open to many approaches

 

[energyandstruct]

where do u get this. and what about e coli probiotics? mutaflor, etc