[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113206

post 113204 Without cell consistency, specifically brain cell, consistency, everything else is arbitrary.

I agree that having the CNS cells functioning well is centrally important.

post 113204 You can rely on thyroid hormone to promote mitochondrial biogenesis, and use sugar to tie up fats, but that doesn't optimise the PUFA membranes that exist in the brain. It's fact.

Exactly what the facts are about optimal cell membrane composition continues to be contentious, as far as I can tell. I'm sure you've read the story about the Burrs and William Brown, and Peat's take on degeneration and PUFA.

It has to be correct that protecting the myelin sheath in the brain is central to any other attempts to boost ATP and heal the body.

The brain cannot produce it's own ATP and is supplied by cells and dondrites via the spine, this is made of PUFA.

If people read my full post they would see how I made it clear that the brain supply of ATP is central to my hypothesis in relation to the way methylation switches to angiotensin and high homocysteine which causes heart disease. With the brain consuming so much ATP it would only take a small drop in supply for all other organs to go slow, and the heart to become stiff, the kidneys to become calcified.

 

[Tarmander]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I started doing higher carb and lower fat about a year ago, and any fat consumption I did have was in the form of coconut oil.

One thing I have noticed is that I have felt better and better each month, but that I did not feel so great at the beginning. This contrasts pretty well to when I was doing higher fat, which felt great at first, but worse and worse as time went on.

I will also say that my calories increased markedly in that time, so that could definitely be part of it. But it is tough to get behind the whole membrane and pump theory. I was in a health food store for years and listened to people talk about supporting their cell membranes, and chugging down pufa in some form or another. My own experience was that it did not work that well. Most people stayed sick. I mean, have we ever actually seen a sodium pump, or potassium pump, or any of those?

I'm always open to new info though, and I have found this thread and kineticz posts interesting.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113210 I started doing higher carb and lower fat about a year ago, and any fat consumption I did have was in the form of coconut oil.

One thing I have noticed is that I have felt better and better each month, but that I did not feel so great at the beginning. This contrasts pretty well to when I was doing higher fat, which felt great at first, but worse and worse as time went on.

I will also say that my calories increased markedly in that time, so that could definitely be part of it. But it is tough to get behind the whole membrane and pump theory. I was in a health food store for years and listened to people talk about supporting their cell membranes, and chugging down pufa in some form or another. My own experience was that it did not work that well. Most people stayed sick. I'm always open to new info though, and I have found this thread and kineticz posts interesting.

The popular support for PUFAs and fish oils doesn't cut the mustard. Ray is right regarding PUFAs, they are highly sensitive to oxidative damage, and in the wrong consistency are anti-respiration so anti-ATP.

This is a world apart from the correct ratio, then being able to get in magnesium, keep out calcium, maintain sodium/potassium pumps, initiate methylation, reduce kidney disease and heart stiffness.

Then when the stage is set, start working on your thyroid support. Nobody in a healthstore could begin to understand let alone implement this.

Even if we must push the high carb diet, we still need to recognise that as an organ the brain is unique, and sugar does not contain many methylation friendly nutrients, whichever fruit you try. Low methylation means low carnitine, which means low ATP in the heart.

At the end of the day all I ask is that we do not neglect the fact the brain needs special attention regarding it's ATP supply via the EFA myelin sheath.

Folks, get your brain and liver working, so that your kidneys will decalcify, and you are then free to consume as many carbs as you like.

Calcified kidneys do not produce DHEA very well, which antagonises cortisol. Intracellular magnesium is therefore central to DHEA increases.

 

[Tarmander]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113211

post 113210 I started doing higher carb and lower fat about a year ago, and any fat consumption I did have was in the form of coconut oil.

One thing I have noticed is that I have felt better and better each month, but that I did not feel so great at the beginning. This contrasts pretty well to when I was doing higher fat, which felt great at first, but worse and worse as time went on.

I will also say that my calories increased markedly in that time, so that could definitely be part of it. But it is tough to get behind the whole membrane and pump theory. I was in a health food store for years and listened to people talk about supporting their cell membranes, and chugging down pufa in some form or another. My own experience was that it did not work that well. Most people stayed sick. I'm always open to new info though, and I have found this thread and kineticz posts interesting.

The popular support for PUFAs and fish oils doesn't cut the mustard. Ray is right regarding PUFAs, they are highly sensitive to oxidative damage, and in the wrong consistency are anti-respiration so anti-ATP.

This is a world apart from the correct ratio, then being able to get in magnesium, keep out calcium, maintain sodium/potassium pumps, initiate methylation, reduce kidney disease and heart stiffness.

Then when the stage is set, start working on your thyroid support. Nobody in a healthstore could begin to understand let alone implement this.

Even if we must push the high carb diet, we still need to recognise that as an organ the brain is unique, and sugar does not contain many methylation friendly nutrients, whichever fruit you try.

At the end of the day all I ask is that we do not neglect the fact the brain needs special attention regarding it's ATP supply via the EFA myelin sheath.

Yeah...but doesn't like a pump...at the end of the day, need more energy to work then the entire cell makes to run itself? Like isn't that the whole thing on the membranes and pumps theory, that it is bogus because energetically they could not be maintained?

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113207 Hi have you stopped the milk now then

before i heard any of the calcium talk around here (about 2-3 weeks ago) i stopped eating yogurt....which was the bulk of my calcium. my craving for milk had been dwindling over the past few months - and i can't say i've ever really felt it to be optimal for me (and i'm not allergic). but it's the one aspect of my diet i've been very dogmatic about in the face of my cravings and body saying otherwise. ice cream used to be a godsend for me, but now it gives me mild panic attacks....so strange. i'm still very confused about fats, though, just in my own personal observations. I do feel like it gives me better brain function when my diet is higher in fat.....but i also noticed that when i lowered fat a lot in my diet that my blood sugar seemed to get super stable....and i seemed to store glycogen better (could have been imagining that). it's weird that i experienced the opposite of what most people attest to - fats having a more sustained energy output. a few months ago, my body also started really hating fruit, but i was dogmatic about that as well....thinking i needed fruit to balance my starches. it's all been a very long learning process.....but after being through all these things it really primes you to be super perceptive and understanding. One of the most important bits of perception i've received is that the body does not sustain the same diet for a long time.....seasonally many things can change.....it's not really my understanding of physiology or nutrition that matters....being honest about what i'm craving or not pushes me through the transitions.

 

[Fetch]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Out of curiosity when you say "correct consistency" do you mean the Omega 6-3 ratio you mentioned or does the lecithin and bile salts in the recipes linked have more to do with giving the "correct" omega ratio the "right consistency" to be properly utilized by the body?

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113210 I started doing higher carb and lower fat about a year ago, and any fat consumption I did have was in the form of coconut oil.

One thing I have noticed is that I have felt better and better each month, but that I did not feel so great at the beginning. This contrasts pretty well to when I was doing higher fat, which felt great at first, but worse and worse as time went on.

I will also say that my calories increased markedly in that time, so that could definitely be part of it. But it is tough to get behind the whole membrane and pump theory. I was in a health food store for years and listened to people talk about supporting their cell membranes, and chugging down pufa in some form or another. My own experience was that it did not work that well. Most people stayed sick. I'm always open to new info though, and I have found this thread and kineticz posts interesting.

The popular support for PUFAs and fish oils doesn't cut the mustard. Ray is right regarding PUFAs, they are highly sensitive to oxidative damage, and in the wrong consistency are anti-respiration so anti-ATP.

This is a world apart from the correct ratio, then being able to get in magnesium, keep out calcium, maintain sodium/potassium pumps, initiate methylation, reduce kidney disease and heart stiffness.

Then when the stage is set, start working on your thyroid support. Nobody in a healthstore could begin to understand let alone implement this.

Even if we must push the high carb diet, we still need to recognise that as an organ the brain is unique, and sugar does not contain many methylation friendly nutrients, whichever fruit you try. Low methylation means low carnitine, which means low ATP in the heart.

At the end of the day all I ask is that we do not neglect the fact the brain needs special attention regarding it's ATP supply via the EFA myelin sheath.

Folks, get your brain and liver working, so that your kidneys will decalcify, and you are then free to consume as many carbs as you like.

Calcified kidneys do not produce DHEA very well, which antagonises cortisol. Intracellular magnesium is therefore central to DHEA increases.

So besides your whole EFA approach, I'm getting a constant repetition of the importance of magnesium. How much magnesium do you consume in a day, and what would you say is the optimal amount? Would oral magnesium such as citrate or carbonate suffice?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113212

post 113211

post 113210 I started doing higher carb and lower fat about a year ago, and any fat consumption I did have was in the form of coconut oil.

One thing I have noticed is that I have felt better and better each month, but that I did not feel so great at the beginning. This contrasts pretty well to when I was doing higher fat, which felt great at first, but worse and worse as time went on.

I will also say that my calories increased markedly in that time, so that could definitely be part of it. But it is tough to get behind the whole membrane and pump theory. I was in a health food store for years and listened to people talk about supporting their cell membranes, and chugging down pufa in some form or another. My own experience was that it did not work that well. Most people stayed sick. I'm always open to new info though, and I have found this thread and kineticz posts interesting.

The popular support for PUFAs and fish oils doesn't cut the mustard. Ray is right regarding PUFAs, they are highly sensitive to oxidative damage, and in the wrong consistency are anti-respiration so anti-ATP.

This is a world apart from the correct ratio, then being able to get in magnesium, keep out calcium, maintain sodium/potassium pumps, initiate methylation, reduce kidney disease and heart stiffness.

Then when the stage is set, start working on your thyroid support. Nobody in a healthstore could begin to understand let alone implement this.

Even if we must push the high carb diet, we still need to recognise that as an organ the brain is unique, and sugar does not contain many methylation friendly nutrients, whichever fruit you try.

At the end of the day all I ask is that we do not neglect the fact the brain needs special attention regarding it's ATP supply via the EFA myelin sheath.

Yeah...but doesn't like a pump...at the end of the day, need more energy to work then the entire cell makes to run itself? Like isn't that the whole thing on the membranes and pumps theory, that it is bogus because energetically they could not be maintained?

That's exactly my point. That's how the brain works, it can't maintain it's own energy output. So it relies on good blood supply from your kidneys and good liver function. If those functions after prolonged stress and calcium toxicity become impaired, your body switches to angiotensin and vasoconstriction to maintain blood pressure and glucose specifically to the brain. This is highly metabolically damaging.

So it is important to continually renew the cell membranes as they are highly prone to becoming de-energised, which causes glutamate toxicity.

You need to maintain the cell membranes to the brain, not due to the energy capacity, but due to the way the body senses deficient brain energy, and causes kidney damage, heart disease, etc.

Think of cell membranes as a transport system rather than a power station. They signal to your body that there is no need to cause glutamate and calcium influx as energy is efficiently producing ATP.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

So besides your whole EFA approach, I'm getting a constant repetition of the importance of magnesium. How much magnesium do you consume in a day, and what would you say is the optimal amount? Would oral magnesium such as citrate or carbonate suffice?

No they don't work nearly as well. It is not healthy to simply raise serum magnesium or serum anything. I use two cups of transdermal bath salts and four drops of ionised magnesium in some filter water, downed with 50mg P5P B6. Nasty taste but relief from neck pain and no more sluggish mornings.


Magnesium is by far the most important mineral we all need to maximise. And with poor digestion and liver function inherent in health problems, transdermal or ionised are effective for intracellular.

When our magnesium is retained inside cells, B vitamins are significantly absorbed for methylation and not just excreted or cause nausea in my instance.

Your cells will not respire cleanly if they do not retain magnesium which helps recycle glutathione and maintain NADH.

 

[supercoolguy]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

[ref]Agent207[/ref], Thank-You, i am now brain bogged with info. :]

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113208 It has to be correct that protecting the myelin sheath in the brain is central to any other attempts to boost ATP and heal the body.

I'm certainly in favour of restoring and maintaining a healthy myelin sheath, and for other reasons as well - the CNS and it's communication with the rest of the body influence/control a great many functions.

post 113208 The brain cannot produce it's own ATP and is supplied by cells and dondrites via the spine, this is made of PUFA.

Whatever the common current composition of the myelin etc, it doesn't necessarily prove, as far as I understand, that it is the optimal composition.
William Brown apparently got significantly improved brain function (less fatigue and no migraines) on a fat-free diet over several months. I don't take this as evidence that everybody would do best on a high carb completely fat-free diet. But I do take it as evidence that supplementing 20 g of PUFA and running on ketogenesis is not necessary for everyone to improve energy levels and brain function.

post 113211 At the end of the day all I ask is that we do not neglect the fact the brain needs special attention regarding it's ATP supply via the EFA myelin sheath.

The brain needs ATP and support for maintaining myelin sheaths, sure. They are kind of obvious, and Peat has talked about some factors that can influence these. I'm assuming you've read Peat's articles on fats? You seem to be assuming/asserting as accepted fact the existence of EFAs, which he contests.

Have you read any of his discussion on the science surrounding cell membranes? He points to some shaky assumptions in the standard model of a cell consisting of a bunch of organelles floating in liquid cytoplasm and contained by a cell membrane. He refers to Ling and others and writes a bit about cells consisting significantly of water structured by the proteins etc, more like a gel, and the in- and out-flow of various substances depending on other features than the hypothesised (and unlikely) membrane pump model.

 

[halken]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

People feel great on a ketogenic diet at first because they're detoxifying their body from past damage. They later discover that they have caused more damage to their body by confusing a detox method for a dietary lifestyle.

Ultimately, people mistake a radical change in energy supply as the optimal source for energy.

Same thing with veganism.

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I use two cups of transdermal bath salts and four drops of ionised magnesium in some filter water, downed with 50mg P5P B6. Nasty taste but relief from neck pain and no more sluggish mornings.

Magnesium is by far the most important mineral we all need to maximise. And with poor digestion and liver function inherent in health problems, transdermal or ionised are effective for intracellular.

When our magnesium is retained inside cells, B vitamins are significantly absorbed for methylation and not just excreted or cause nausea in my instance.

I used to suffer from the nausea you describe, but no longer. I take 10 mg B6 (pyridoxine HCL sublingually administered) every day; I'd imagine this is adequate. I don't have access to bath water, so ionized magnesium in water or what about magnesium oil? This is just magnesium chloride and water, so it should work the same, or maybe just some magnesium chloride flakes mixed with water would be cheaper and exactly the same, such as these.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Have you read any of his discussion on the science surrounding cell membranes? He points to some shaky assumptions in the standard model of a cell consisting of a bunch of organelles floating in liquid cytoplasm and contained by a cell membrane. He refers to Ling and others and writes a bit about cells consisting significantly of water structured by the proteins etc, more like a gel, and the in- and out-flow of various substances depending on other features than the hypothesised (and unlikely) membrane pump model.

I have no doubt these issues are contested. I'm no doctor but I'm not going to keel over with no opinion because a large chunk of the prime years of my life has been devoted to this, alongside much suffering and loneliness.

All that I can add to the EFA debate is that without the phospholipid exchange I did not tolerate minerals. Magnesium is everything in terms of your ATP and metabolism. Calcium is it's arch enemy and is the source of degeneration.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113222

I use two cups of transdermal bath salts and four drops of ionised magnesium in some filter water, downed with 50mg P5P B6. Nasty taste but relief from neck pain and no more sluggish mornings.

Magnesium is by far the most important mineral we all need to maximise. And with poor digestion and liver function inherent in health problems, transdermal or ionised are effective for intracellular.

When our magnesium is retained inside cells, B vitamins are significantly absorbed for methylation and not just excreted or cause nausea in my instance.

I used to suffer from the nausea you describe, but no longer. I take 10 mg B6 (pyridoxine HCL sublingually administered) every day; I'd imagine this is adequate. I don't have access to bath water, so ionized magnesium in water or what about magnesium oil? This is just magnesium chloride and water, so it should work the same, or maybe just some magnesium chloride flakes mixed with water would be cheaper and exactly the same, such as these.

Undermethylators with high phosphate and kidney damage do not convert standard B6 very well. It needs to be P5P really.

Try to get your hands on ionised magnesium Dave. Down it with some P5P then report back. I would be staggered if it didn't provide benefits so we can discuss more. Anyone out there reading should try that combo.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113216

post 113212

post 113211

post 113210Yeah...but doesn't like a pump...at the end of the day, need more energy to work then the entire cell makes to run itself? Like isn't that the whole thing on the membranes and pumps theory, that it is bogus because energetically they could not be maintained?

That's exactly my point. That's how the brain works, it can't maintain it's own energy output.

I understood Tarmander's explanation to apply to all/most body cells, not just brain cells. If the physics and maths of this is right, it leaves the membrane pump model significantly divergent from standard physics in the area of energy metabolism.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113226

post 113216

post 113212

post 113211

post 113210Yeah...but doesn't like a pump...at the end of the day, need more energy to work then the entire cell makes to run itself? Like isn't that the whole thing on the membranes and pumps theory, that it is bogus because energetically they could not be maintained?

That's exactly my point. That's how the brain works, it can't maintain it's own energy output.

I understood Tarmander's explanation to apply to all/most body cells, not just brain cells. If the physics and maths of this is right, it leaves the membrane pump model significantly divergent from standard physics in the area of energy metabolism.

I understand it in the context of methylation rather than energy metabolism directly or Peat.

Look on the chart on methylation. Bottom right corner, angiotensin and cortisol. Bet you are anti cortisol but never even knew that cortisol was central response in undermethylation. Peat knows the negatives of this on organ health and blood supply.

The liver readily switches to this most specifically when brain ATP is low because methylation and overall ATP has dropped so drastically over time. Undermethylation causes high oxidative stress, which causes brain cell toxicity. Thyroid hormone is irrelevant when the kidneys are overworked and seizing up.

It's imperative to restore homeostasis by improved brain energy supply. Membranes are a layer that pose as charge gradients to move minerals in and out. Whatever the theory on the energy physics, the body perceives high calcium toxicity as signal to raise angiotensin, homocysteine, ammonia, arginine and NO to try and increase blood vessel volume, while concurrently the angiotensin and calcium are causing atherosclerosis.

The brain cells that are toxic cannot metabolise fats, so what does cortisol do? It raises glucose, to keep at least some parts of the brain happy. The heart is not interested in glucose, nor is the liver which relies on proteins and nutrients only found in meat.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

At best the focus on PUFAs is trivial.

So you limit PUFAs, congratulations. Now what. You should be working on your liver and not really the sugar or fat debate. Peat indirectly supports methylation proteins such as glycine. As I explained, calcium toxic kidneys have trouble making serine and glycine, so you have high lipid peroxidation and high ammonia instead of glutathione.

If you really don't understand methylation then reading up on the methyl cycle makes everything very very obvious in my view. Whether you want to try this diet or that diet is blind without knowledge of the relationship between brain, liver, heart, kidneys.

We are not super complex people really, we have four main organs. That's it. The type of fuel you consume really is just about adrenaline.

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113224

Undermethylators with high phosphate and kidney damage do not convert standard B6 very well. It needs to be P5P really.

Try to get your hands on ionised magnesium Dave. Down it with some P5P then report back. I would be staggered if it didn't provide benefits so we can discuss more. Anyone out there reading should try that combo.

Alright, I got this beastly tub; it's flavored but does that matter? I also got some of this magnesium. Everything check out all right? I'll report back when I get it.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113231

post 113224

Undermethylators with high phosphate and kidney damage do not convert standard B6 very well. It needs to be P5P really.

Try to get your hands on ionised magnesium Dave. Down it with some P5P then report back. I would be staggered if it didn't provide benefits so we can discuss more. Anyone out there reading should try that combo.

Alright, I got this beastly tub; it's flavored but does that matter? I also got some of this magnesium. Everything check out all right? I'll report back when I get it.

That magnesium is the right form but seems unusually cheap (great reviews so must be ok), whereas the P5P is extortionate. Oral P5P is ok along with the ionised mag. Should be able to find much cheaper P5P.

Also bare in mind in my case the Mag only started working after I started the phospholipid exchange. But that's just me.