[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

heh kineticz I looked at your posts from feb 2015 and it seems that you didn't know much. But info in this topic is excellent. Interesting... I must have so low IQ when I was on your(feb 2015) level about 5 years ago and now I dont know what you just described here.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113297 Kineticz btw high phosphorus with low calcium in this meat,eggs,veggies and dairy free diet is not a problem?

You don't need to take vit D. Vit D naturally raises in kidneys when they become less calcified, as a result of improved brain ATP, and liver methylation/glutathione production.

Magnesium prevents the damage of phosphorus, not calcium.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113314 heh kineticz I looked at your posts from feb 2015 and it seems that you didn't know much. But info in this topic is excellent. Interesting... I must have so low IQ when I was on your(feb 2015) level about 5 years ago and now I dont know what you just described here.

Peat states that everything is a mystery until one day it all fits together. I feel I have reached that point.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113277 Kineticz, IF one wanted to start this tomorrow how would he or she go about it? It is a lot of information. What does your ketogenic menu look like? It sounds like it's rather low in fat with the lean meat. Does it matter where you get the sugar? And why doesn't the added sugar prevent ketogenisis? How many smoothies should one be doing? How do we know the efas will be directed to the brain? What you're stating sounds reasonable. Any answers are appreciated.

I would start by clearing out toxic cells and mopping up oxidative stress so methylation can resume and supply of energy to the brain rather than diverting through angiotensin and causing kidney damage. So a phospholipid exchange and liposomal glutathione. I would then add in ionised magnesium and P5P, perhaps with some lysine. I would eat more meat compared to carbs, and limit calcium. I would down a cup of orange juice or whatever fruit you like with a teaspoon of sea salt before bed. I would add in some l-carnitine.

If we can protect the kidneys we get less calcium toxicity and more DHEA. Protecting the kidneys means supporting the liver's house-cleaning duties to provide the enormous energy to the brain. If you are fatigued during low carb diets it's not because ketogenesis is bad, it's because you aren't supporting your body's ATP brain supply. Your liver ran out of clout because your ATP pumps were not nutritionally supported. A healthy heart loves ketogenesis using carnitine. A liver's priority is not how many carbs you take in, it's how significant your zinc, b vitamin, magnesium, carnitine, creatine, glutathione stores.

Magnesium is particularly troublesome because it's only useful if you can retain it inside cells. Unused energy/poorly functioning mitchondria/high cortisol, high sugar or not, will still have trouble retaining the magnesium. As I pointed out, when angiotensin is activated, cortisol raises to increase blood sugar to the brain. This has a nasty side effect of calcifying tissues. But adding more sugar to your diet does not override this. Only ATP production and methylation will. But steady blood sugar is very important particularly during fasting states. Pregnenolone, sodium and careful intake of sugar can aid this.


Overall, mitochondria DNA is individual, so some many need more carbs and some may flourish on a more ketogenic state, such as myself. I'm just trying to provide alternative viewpoint for people who like the benefits of Peating but wish to try burning fats again, or simply feel a little helpless.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Ketogenesis has it's strengths and glucose oxidation has it's strengths, we've all felt it. But both have downsides and what I found is that if you can use them to compliment one another they actually work together very well. Your DNA might have more glycolytic enzymes, or it might have more ketogenic enzymes. We must avoid the dogma and criticisms of contemporary dietary advice as they are just a simple mass marketable less than optimum 'middle road', but that shouldn't make us become totally sceptical.

But it is fact that cell maintenance is performed by methylation, and ATP is given as a priority to the brain. The stalemate is that you need high ATP to drive methylation in the first place, so you get into a rut where your glutathione has been exhausted and cortisol rises to sustain brain function. Taking more sugar in this situation seems idiotic.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Kineticz and where fits in this vit A(retinol) and cholesterol? Once a week 200g of liver and 3-5 eggs a day is a good idea? So no additional supplementation with vit D ok.. Btw I had( and still have probably) high B12 years ago and I take B complex where is B12 also. Is that a problem?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113323 Kineticz and where fits in this vit A(retinol) and cholesterol? Once a week 200g of liver and 3-5 eggs is a good idea? So no additional supplementation with vit D ok.. Btw I had( and still have probably) high B12 years ago and I take B complex where is B12 also. Is that a problem?

High b12 means you are undermethylating as your liver is having trouble converting your dietary B12 into the active form of B12, methylcobalamin.

If you are undermethylating then I would limit cholesterol and vit A for a while, as high homocysteine is highly toxic to cholesterol and heart function causing oxidative stress. Eggs are ok as they have choline but choline depletes carnitine so increase your intake of l-carnitine to match the choline. For ATP is is better to have a higher ratio of carnitine to choline so that your cells perform efficiently rather than the carnitine getting swamped out which allows fatty acids to roam free, become rancid and deplete your glutathione.

The best thing any undermethylator can do is start taking liposomal glutathione to ease the pressure in the liver and kidneys, and some glycine (or l-serine).


After you've mopped up the oxidative stress, the magnesium, P5P and glycine will initiate your body's natural glutathione production. Once this resumes, the G6PDH enzyme increases, which helps the NADH and P450 enzymes so you can tolerate pregnenolone and intracellular magnesium goes up so your red blood cells become rich again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6 ... deficiency

In undermethylation, when your body is producing angiotensin and cortisol, your blood sugar is already being increased, so because the G6PDH enzyme relies on sugar for it's first step, you get diabetes as there is a lack of ATP to produce the downstream reactions. A state of high blood sugar and G6PDH deficiency due to undermethylation is not desirable.

 

[Nighteyes]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I for one would like to see some of the sources for the statements and conclusions you present. It would make it easier to get a picture of what grounds you base your current views on. This is especially important as there are so many different theories/diets/beliefs on the internet today.

As I see some people here do, it is far too easy to blindly jump on the wagon so to speak, when someone is argumentative or convincing enough in the way they present their views. I love the way Peat lists the sources of his statements throughout his articles.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113326 I for one would like to see some of the sources for the statements and conclusions you present. It would make it easier to get a picture of what grounds you base your current views on. This is especially important as there are so many different theories/diets/beliefs on the internet today.

As I see some people here do, it is far too easy to blindly jump on the wagon so to speak, when someone is argumentative or convincing enough in the way they present their views. I love the way Peat lists the sources of his statements throughout his articles.

You can trust that all the sources are just as convincing as any Peat source. My long post was my personal notes, I'm not a practitioner, I'm a forum member who knows how to write dissertations.

You can research the theory I put together yourself.

 

[Nighteyes]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113327 You can trust that all the sources are just as convincing as any Peat source.

Thanks... how helpful

post 113327 You can research the theory I put together yourself.

Yes but perhaps one should remember that when advicing others on health one has a resonsibility. Every word put outthere affects someone else. Maybe you trust your research, but if you wish to be helpful here, maybe you could provide some of yours?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Any source provided can be countered. I have provided the steps to my best state of health since being born. I'm not providing over 10,000 hours worth of research to you.

 

[Nighteyes]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113329 Any source provided can be countered.

As it rightly should if a different/interesting/newer/more convicing theory either exists or pops up in the future. I mean this is what scientific discussions / research are about... But I respect your decision. All the best.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Countering theories will always lead to how glucose is superior and PUFAs are bad. Nobody here actually seems to know about methylation. I'm more interested in talking about that and how it may help people.

I have given a concrete methylation chart on page 1. It shows everything that is proven to take place in the liver. These are not contested activities. The only thing sugar does in methylation is prevent fatty acid liberation and therefore limit oxidative stress, mildly repleting glutathione stores.

 

[NathanK]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

what about MSM(organic sulfur) It is also very important for methylation right?

I think this is an interesting question. I think there is more to taurine (especially in relation to methylation) as to why people find so much benefit. Taurine and MSM had very positive effects for me and I am wondering if taurine in particlular is what normalized my kidney function labs as much as anything. Taurine and sulphur play a part in liver detox, methylation, digestion, homocysteine metabolism, and possibly the kidneys. i'm not well versed enough on the all the AA metabolisms and methylation to speak too intelligently, but insulin and glutathione are largely comprised of sulphur AAs. Anecdotally, I only took a couple doses of MSM and it cleared out just about all of my aches...permanently. Sulphur makes you more acidic and didn't think it would help since my body is more acidic than alkaline. Ray, and a lot of people, are reluctant to recommend MSM though and likely doesn't have any direct effect in methylation that I know. Taurine I took for 2-3 months at pretty good doses.

I've wondered if a lot of these digestion and assimilation of nutrients issues are also related to more common pancreatic issues. Of course all of this is systematic and it's really hard to reduce to one thing/function dysregulation in the body.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/6/1 ... l.pdf+html
http://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/SULFUR.htm
http://www.nutricionhospitalaria.com/pdf/3337.pdf
Hepatic dysfunction
The liver is the pivotal metabolic organ and the major site for enzymatic reactions involved in taurine synthesis. Hepatic dysfunction disturbs amino acid synthesis and adversely affects sulphur amino acid status. Patients with severe liver damage or cirrhosis have low plasma taurine, cysteine and glutathione concentrations, an elevated plasma cystathionine concentration, decreased urinary taurine excretion, and increased cysteine and cystathionine excretion95, 100, 101. Vitamin B6 deficiency may also concur, especially in alcoholics'23. All these factors contribute to disturb the taurine enzymatic pathway.

Chronic renal failure
Low plasma and muscle intracellular taurine concentrations are often found in patients with chronic renal failure, even though the precursor amino acids are normal or elevated. This suggests a metabolic block in the synthesis, probably linked to a decreased activity of the key enzyme, cysteine sulphinic acid decarboxylase. Intracellular taurine depletion may be responsible for muscle fatigue, a common symptom in
uraemia; supplementation may be appropriate in chronic renal failure12, 102, 103. A recent cross-over trial suggests that nocturnal hemodialy

post 113312

post 113258 My homocysteine I tested for the first time this summer and was higher than Id like at around 10.

Kineticz, by your explanation this doesn't really fall into your definition of over or undermethylator. What do you make of that?

High homocysteine means you are undermethylating. As explained, most of methylation needs high ATP ion pumps and is found in meat, not carbs.

Thanks, but it still doesn't quite explain by your definition why my kidney function is far better now yet my blood pressure has mildly risen or if I was undermethylating why my B12 was low. It's possible that my homocysteine was even higher back then if I had tested, but it still doesn't match up to your original parameters of an undermethylator. No need to explain if you can just point me to some sources that might explain under and over methylors.

Thanks for you contribution here. I agree that methylation is under represented enough on the board. I'm not 100% sold on Ray's view of limiting methylation as much as possible in a less than perfect healthy human being. I still follow that until I figure out my own situation through labs.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

At best the focus on PUFAs is trivial.

I'll give my main reason why I think the focus is not trivial, as you say, after I list the sources of PUFA today:

Sources of PUFA:

Mayonaise, all salad dressings (the first ingredient in salad dressing and mayo is pure oil),
All snack foods like Cheetos and Doritos and potato chips (but it's not the potatoes that are the problem, its the oil they are cooked in, same thing with "fried" rice, its the oil, not the rice)
Fried food like onion rings and donuts
Baked goods like pastries and cakes have huge amounts of PUFA
Restaurant food
Pizza dough is made with oil
Soups from restaurants are made with lots of oil (and homemade soups too, by people who think oil is good for them)

All of those foods are made with the following oils:

Sunflowers are the source of Sunflower oil.These oils account for a significant fraction of world-wide edible oil production. All are also used as fuel oils.
Corn oil, a common cooking oil with little odor or taste.
Cottonseed oil, used in manufacturing potato chips and other snack foods.
Canola oil (a variety of rapeseed oil), one of the most widely used cooking oils, from a (trademarked) cultivar of rapeseed.
Olive oil, used in cooking, cosmetics, soaps, and as a fuel for traditional oil lamps.
Palm oil, the most widely produced tropical oil. Also used to make biofuel. (I do use some palm oil for natural vitamin E occasionally, and for fun)
Peanut oil (Ground nut oil), a clear oil used for dressing salads and, due to its high smoke point, especially used for frying.
Safflower oil, produced for export for over 50 years, first for use in paint industry, now mostly as a cooking oil.
Sesame oil, cold pressed as light cooking oil, hot pressed for a darker and stronger flavor.
Soybean oil, produced as a byproduct of processing soy meal.
Sunflower oil, a common cooking oil, also used to make biodiesel.

And these following supplements are big business in health food stores and even mainstream supermarkets today, pushed everywhere:

Fish Oil
Salmon Oil
Cod Liver Oil
Fermented Cod Liver Oil
Krill Oil
Arctic Krill Oil
Hempseed Oil
Borage Oil
Evening Primrose Oil
Black Currant Seed Oil
Flaxseed Oil
Sea Buckthorn Oil

These are also taken as supplements:

Nut oils:

Hazelnuts from the Common Hazel, used to make Hazelnut oil. Nut oils are generally used in cooking, for their flavor. They are also quite costly, because of the difficulty of extracting the oil.
Almond oil, used as an edible oil, but primarily in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals.
Hazelnut oil, mainly used for its flavor. Also used in skin care, because of its slight astringent nature.
Macadamia oil, strongly flavored, a good balance of omega-3 and omega-6.
Pecan oil, valued as a food oil, but requiring fresh pecans for good quality oil.
Pistachio oil, strongly flavored oil, particularly for use in salads.
Walnut oil, used for its flavor, also used by Renaissance painters in oil paints.

The reason I think these PUFA oils cause problems is because of simple observation. Look at people in the 60's and 70's. 80-100 years ago, an obese person was very rare, and used for circus entertainment. Too much PUFA kills the metabolic rate in humans. People eat those foods I listed above every day, every where. From at home or at the taco drunk during lunch break. Heart disease is the number one killer, followed by many types of cancers.

Look at how skinny everyone was here dancing at Soul Train in the 70's which was before major PUFA consumption. These people are so skinny that they would be looked at as "anorexic" today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXbP4JBf8To

But those are just black genetics for a good metabolism you say? I don't think so. Black westerners are among the fattest today, post PUFA.

Here's white female and male Beatle fans in the 60's, not a single fat person pre-PUFA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mw1D3HTGng

I can say the same for Asian and Pacific Islanders pre and post PUFA.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Thanks, but it still doesn't quite explain by your definition why my kidney function is far better now yet my blood pressure has mildly risen or if I was undermethylating why my B12 was low. It's possible that my homocysteine was even higher back then if I had tested, but it still doesn't match up to your original parameters of an undermethylator. No need to explain if you can just point me to some sources that might explain under and over methylors.

Thanks for you contribution here. I agree that methylation is under represented enough on the board. I'm not 100% sold on Ray's view of limiting methylation as much as possible in a less than perfect health human being. I still follow that until I figure out my own situation through labs.

It does explain it Nathan. There are three aspects to methylation. B12 is only one of the stages. high homocysteine means the other two stages to methylation are underperforming.

I have also explained that carbohydrates help the kidneys because tyrosine and glycine are key kidney amino acids. They also happen to be key to increasing metabolism. Sugar by reducing adrenaline repletes those, and prevents cortisol and calcium toxicity in the right circumstances.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

PUFA is trivial for those of us who can simply avoid PUFA and continue trying to change our lives. In terms of society you have the right stance, but I'm not here for a crusade.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113324

post 113323 Kineticz and where fits in this vit A(retinol) and cholesterol? Once a week 200g of liver and 3-5 eggs is a good idea? So no additional supplementation with vit D ok.. Btw I had( and still have probably) high B12 years ago and I take B complex where is B12 also. Is that a problem?

High b12 means you are undermethylating as your liver is having trouble converting your dietary B12 into the active form of B12, methylcobalamin.

If you are undermethylating then I would limit cholesterol and vit A for a while, as high homocysteine is highly toxic to cholesterol and heart function causing oxidative stress. Eggs are ok as they have choline but choline depletes carnitine so increase your intake of l-carnitine to match the choline. For ATP is is better to have a higher ratio of carnitine to choline so that your cells perform efficiently rather than the carnitine getting swamped out which allows fatty acids to roam free, become rancid and deplete your glutathione.

The best thing any undermethylator can do is start taking liposomal glutathione to ease the pressure in the liver and kidneys, and some glycine (or l-serine).


After you've mopped up the oxidative stress, the magnesium, P5P and glycine will initiate your body's natural glutathione production. Once this resumes, the G6PDH enzyme increases, which helps the NADH and P450 enzymes so you can tolerate pregnenolone and intracellular magnesium goes up so your red blood cells become rich again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6 ... deficiency

In undermethylation, when your body is producing angiotensin and cortisol, your blood sugar is already being increased, so because the G6PDH enzyme relies on sugar for it's first step, you get diabetes as there is a lack of ATP to produce the downstream reactions. A state of high blood sugar and G6PDH deficiency due to undermethylation is not desirable.

So what would be ideal main source of energy for me. If I drop carbs, eggs.. with lean meat and vegetables and some butter it will be maybe 1500-1800 kcal max. It seems too little.. Can you show us how looks your diet? Macros, calories etc...?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

In order to follow my type of plan you have to activate some ketogenesis again, and use carbs around periods where you anticipate fasting.

My supplements consistent of:

Liposomal glutathione in choline base
Ionised magnesium
Magnesium bath salts
P5P
Lysine
l-carnitine
T4
Tiny amount of Hemp/sunflower oil to keep brain happy
Tablespoon coconut oil before exercise
Glucose after exercise (I prefer to do it after as HIIT increases mitochondrial biogenesis which is what thyroid hormone also does)
Cup of orange juice and teaspoon of kosher salt before bed
Transdermal pregnenolone when my worklife is particularly stressful or when I've missed a meal

My diet is around 2000cals and the ratio is roughly:

50% protein/meat to provide nutrients for methylation, ketogenesis and aminos for the kidneys
30% carb veg to sustain stable blood sugar, includes nutrients vit A, vit C, and fibre to increase gut motility
20% glucose to limit fasting stress response and excess fatty acid liberation when ATP is unlikely to be generated, such as during the lactic acid post-exercise

All activity underwritten by phospholipid exchange to minimise angiotensin adaptive mechanism and maintain G6PDH conversion of glucose to enriched and recycle red blood cell health.

Like I say I put on a big belly gut consuming so much fructose and fruit juice so I came across this alternative balance after I researched methylation.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?