[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

fwiw, I've probably had 50G carbs today, max, and I'm sat here with clarity, no tension, nothing. So much for OMFGZ LOW CARBZ YOU GONNA DIE dogma.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113128 the crash.

post 113127 Amazoniac wrote:
Source of the post
kineticz wrote:
Source of the post
Amazoniac wrote:
One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. .


You haven't met me.

The stressful effects of fat burning can be easily bypassed without consuming gallons of fruit juice or milk.

I haven't because

I had great energy on high fat/ketogenic diet for about a year then I crashed. Maybe using sugar strategically would have slowed or prevented

It's about that but more importantly it's about preventing angiotensin/cortisol and improving your ion pumps and cell membranes, with EFAs. Try some phospholipid exhange therapies and ionised magnesium chloride.

 

[Fetch]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

when I was low carb I did supplement EFA's from cod liver oil as many people do. Is there a reason that would not have help improve ion pumps and cell membranes? Also I ate huge amount of meat so I assume I would get decent amount of l-carnitine. I'm not trying to argue I am just a little overwhelmed by the amount of info above and trying to sort it out.

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113049
It is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

Sugar is important to limit the stress response, I feel fats should be burned for oxidative metabolism. A fatty liver is not something to aspire to, nor is a fermenting gut or zinc deficiency. Sugar ensures that liver glutathione isn't excessively consumed when excessive fatty acids, unused for ATP, become rancid.

Keep your cell membranes happy, get the magnesium in, lock it with sodium. Excess calcium is caused by cortisol and de-energised cells, not by a lack of dietary calcium. Use sugar to limit possible oxidative stress from any fatty acids that exceed the ATP capacity of your mitochondria and deplete your liver.

I see where you're going with this. What about a high-calorie diet that centers around fruit consumption with a significant portion coming from sucrose, (say around 80%), and around 100-150 grams of protein with very low tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine, and (here's the catch) a large amount of calories coming from coconut oil. Let's say around 1000 - 1500 calories? This would provide adequate MCT's (and could even be boosted by using MCT oil,) while not forcing the body to produce its own ketones through stressing the liver. It just so happens that an OJ-centric diet with a little bit of skim milk, 1-2 TBSP baking soda, and hefty servings of coconut oil accomplish this while providing every nutrient and mineral in abundance.

It seems this would circumvent the process of the body in the production of ketones, but it would still allow the mitochondria to use this energy source effectively. Additionally, there seems to be a significant drop in physical performance without adequate carbohydrate, but I am aware of a doctor who adapted for a 6-month period and restored his athletic function.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I see where you're going with this. What about a high-calorie diet that centers around fruit consumption with a significant portion coming from sucrose, (say around 80%), and around 100-150 grams of protein with very low tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine, and (here's the catch) a large amount of calories coming from coconut oil. Let's say around 1000 - 1500 calories? This would provide adequate MCT's (and could even be boosted by using MCT oil,) while not forcing the body to produce its own ketones through stressing the liver. It just so happens that an OJ-centric diet with a little bit of skim milk, 1-2 TBSP baking soda, and hefty servings of coconut oil accomplish this while providing every nutrient and mineral in abundance.

It seems this would circumvent the process of the body in the production of ketones, but it would still allow the mitochondria to use this energy source effectively. Additionally, there seems to be a significant drop in physical performance without adequate carbohydrate, but I am aware of a doctor who adapted for a 6-month period and restored his athletic function.

I currently consume maybe 80G carbs a day. Make of that what you will. My wellbeing comes from my phospholipid exchange, ionised magnesium and P5P, sugar before bed and exercise, and my high lean meat and veg diet providing carnitine, zinc, copper, selenium, etc...

I sit here with zero stress response because a happy brain and ATP ion pumps are more important than carb intake. Many liver nutrients are found in lean meat, not sugar.

You don't need excessive carbs to limit the negatives from fatty acid liberation. My view is it's been grossly exaggerated and/or manipulated. Excessive carbs seems to me a very risky and lazy approach to preventing oxidative stress.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113132 when I was low carb I did supplement EFA's from cod liver oil as many people do. Is there a reason that would not have help improve ion pumps and cell membranes? Also I ate huge amount of meat so I assume I would get decent amount of l-carnitine. I'm not trying to argue I am just a little overwhelmed by the amount of info above and trying to sort it out.

Cod liver oil is not the right consistency. In line with Peat's correct views, you do want to limit PUFAs of the wrong consistency.

Healthy cell membranes need the right consistency otherwise they hinder cellular respiration. Follow some smoothies in the phospholipid exchange. Ratio 4 to 1 for brain ATP and less angiotensin/ammonia/arginine.

http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I currently consume maybe 80G carbs a day. Make of that what you will. My wellbeing comes from my phospholipid exchange, ionised magnesium and P5P, sugar before bed and exercise, and my high lean meat and veg diet providing carnitine, zinc, copper, selenium, etc...

I sit here with zero stress response because a happy brain and ATP ion pumps are more important than carb intake. Many liver nutrients are found in lean meat, not sugar.

You don't need excessive carbs to limit the negatives from fatty acid liberation. My view is it's been grossly exaggerated and/or manipulated. Excessive carbs seems to me a very risky and lazy approach to preventing oxidative stress.

BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH IRONZ AND PHOSPHOROUS?

And what about this?

And why can't I just get those nutrients from seafood? #oysters

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113049
It is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

Sugar is important to limit the stress response, I feel fats should be burned for oxidative metabolism. A fatty liver is not something to aspire to, nor is a fermenting gut or zinc deficiency. Sugar ensures that liver glutathione isn't excessively consumed when excessive fatty acids, unused for ATP, become rancid.

Keep your cell membranes happy, get the magnesium in, lock it with sodium. Excess calcium is caused by cortisol and de-energised cells, not by a lack of dietary calcium. Use sugar to limit possible oxidative stress from any fatty acids that exceed the ATP capacity of your mitochondria and deplete your liver.

I see where you're going with this. What about a high-calorie diet that centers around fruit consumption with a significant portion coming from sucrose, (say around 80%), and around 100-150 grams of protein with very low tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine, and (here's the catch) a large amount of calories coming from coconut oil. Let's say around 1000 - 1500 calories? This would provide adequate MCT's (and could even be boosted by using MCT oil,) while not forcing the body to produce its own ketones through stressing the liver. It just so happens that an OJ-centric diet with a little bit of skim milk, 1-2 TBSP baking soda, and hefty servings of coconut oil accomplish this while providing every nutrient and mineral in abundance.

It seems this would circumvent the process of the body in the production of ketones, but it would still allow the mitochondria to use this energy source effectively. Additionally, there seems to be a significant drop in physical performance without adequate carbohydrate, but I am aware of a doctor who adapted for a 6-month period and restored his athletic function.

Dave F., The nutrition you describe is just about where research has led me, with a lot of strong coffee, and soft cheese instead of milk to reduce the whey content (and a little shellfish, liver or egg).

Have you tried this sort of nutrition, Dave F? (I try to say "nutrition" because "diet" may be an emotionally charged word.)

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113140

I currently consume maybe 80G carbs a day. Make of that what you will. My wellbeing comes from my phospholipid exchange, ionised magnesium and P5P, sugar before bed and exercise, and my high lean meat and veg diet providing carnitine, zinc, copper, selenium, etc...

I sit here with zero stress response because a happy brain and ATP ion pumps are more important than carb intake. Many liver nutrients are found in lean meat, not sugar.

You don't need excessive carbs to limit the negatives from fatty acid liberation. My view is it's been grossly exaggerated and/or manipulated. Excessive carbs seems to me a very risky and lazy approach to preventing oxidative stress.

BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH IRONZ AND PHOSPHOROUS?

And what about this?

And why can't I just get those nutrients from seafood? #oysters

Iron is needed for Heme. Heme is needed for methylation and red blood cell volume. ATP is generated in the passage of nutrients in rich, healthy, oxygenated blood. As I discussed earlier, the G6PDH enzyme ensures that red blood cells recycle glutathione as part of methylation. Healthy kidneys will manage the phosphorus. Carnitine is integral for fatty acid transfer. Thyroid hormone is irrelevant if the fats can't gain access to cells and remain in serum, increasing oxidative stress.

 

[Fetch]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

is she against dairy? All the recipes use almond, coconut, or soya milk or yogurt if so what is the reasoning? Do you usually just do the quick version?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113145 is she against dairy? All the recipes use almond, coconut, or soya milk or yogurt if so what is the reasoning? Do you usually just do the quick version?

I get great relief from simply a tablespoon of hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, along with a teaspoon of liposomal glutathione and choline.

Add onto that my ionised magnesium and lean meat and veg diet, and I'm good to go. Sleep excellent, work out excellent in the gym. Unparalleled mental clarity, no neck or back tension.

Now time to get out there and find a bird! Make up for the last four years experimenting with my hormones, enzyme, HPTA, etc.

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Dave F., The nutrition you describe is just about where research has led me, with a lot of strong coffee, and soft cheese instead of milk to reduce the whey content (and a little shellfish, liver or egg).

Have you tried this sort of nutrition, Dave F? (I try to say "nutrition" because "diet" may be an emotionally charged word.)

Working up to 5 grams of caffeine per day here. I'm looking into farmer's cheese to reduce the whey as well.

Currently, I drink a lot of milk (about 1-2 gallons/day) and orange juice (1200 calories per day), but I don't do the coconut oil thing. I'm sure it would help me, though. I feel as if this diet is closer to ideal then anything else, but the problem is the serotonin from all the tryptophan. Orange juice concentrate is too expensive for a college student as myself, however, to drink it in such large quantities.

Iron is needed for Heme. Heme is needed for methylation and red blood cell volume. As I discussed earlier, the G6PDH enzyme ensures that red blood cells recycle glutathione as part of methylation. Healthy kidneys will manage the phosphorus. Carnitine is integral for fatty acid transfer. Thyroid hormone is irrelevant if the fats can't gain access to cells and remain in serum, increasing oxidative stress.

Well, we need some iron, but the question is, how much? The iron level in breast milk is microscopic, but this is just naturalistic fallacy I suppose. You're in business management; how do you know so much about nutrition? As a business major myself, I'm curious.

I feel as if your recommendations integrate partially with those of Ray Peats, as you're both fans of maximizing ATP production and the metabolic rate. The question is, how well suited is the human body toward ketogenesis versus the Krebs Cycle.

There is undoubtedly an advantage to using ketones, but it seems to difficult to maintain a ketogenic state; you consistently have to disobey your compulsion to consume sucrose.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113145 is she against dairy? All the recipes use almond, coconut, or soya milk or yogurt if so what is the reasoning? Do you usually just do the quick version?

I get great relief from simply a tablespoon of hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, along with a teaspoon of liposomal glutathione and choline.

This is a dangerous thing to do. It may seem to be ok, until it's not, and then it will take years to undo the damage, if you're lucky.

May I ask you, kineticz, What do you sell in your "ecommerce off the grid business" that you list in your profile? Would it happen to be"hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, ... liposomal glutathione and choline" in any form or fashion, or perhaps consultation involving such things?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Hmm. Not sure where that came from. Off grid being solar panels. I know so much because I believe in empowering people, and have a history of several genetic disorders, and lifelong depressive states.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113149

post 113145 is she against dairy? All the recipes use almond, coconut, or soya milk or yogurt if so what is the reasoning? Do you usually just do the quick version?

I get great relief from simply a tablespoon of hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, along with a teaspoon of liposomal glutathione and choline.

This is a dangerous thing to do. It may seem to be ok, until it's not, and then it will take years to undo the damage, if you're lucky.

May I ask you, kineticz, What do you sell in your "ecommerce off the grid business" that you list in your profile? Would it happen to be"hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, ... liposomal glutathione and choline" in any form or fashion, or perhaps consultation involving such things?

How can it be dangerous to replace your cell membranes?

If I have taken the time to present all my research, and your response is that, I have no time for you.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113151 Hmm. Not sure where that came from. Off grid being solar panels. I know so much because I believe in empowering people, and have a history of several genetic disorders, and lifelong depressive states.

The profiles says:
Occupationirector ecommerce small-scale off-grid
Location:West Midlands, GB

So do you sell unsaturated oil, phosphoplipds, choline or consultation involving those things?

 

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

How can it be dangerous to replace your cell membranes?

If I have taken the time to present all my research, and your response is that, I have no time for you.

I believe he's referring to Peat's argument of PUFA's being stored in your tissues, and thus serving as an obstacle to cellular respiration until they slowly degrade over a period of 4-8 years.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I sell... solar panels. ecommerce is handy because, guess what, you get to sit at a computer all day. And research.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113152

post 113149

post 113145 is she against dairy? All the recipes use almond, coconut, or soya milk or yogurt if so what is the reasoning? Do you usually just do the quick version?

I get great relief from simply a tablespoon of hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, along with a teaspoon of liposomal glutathione and choline.

This is a dangerous thing to do. It may seem to be ok, until it's not, and then it will take years to undo the damage, if you're lucky.

May I ask you, kineticz, What do you sell in your "ecommerce off the grid business" that you list in your profile? Would it happen to be"hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, ... liposomal glutathione and choline" in any form or fashion, or perhaps consultation involving such things?

How can it be dangerous to replace your cell membranes?

Because one of the most important symptoms, correlations, or perhaps causes of metabolic disease is when your cell membranes become more unsaturated over time.

Most of the images and metaphors relating to coconut oil and cholesterol that circulate in our culture are false and misleading. I offer a counter-image, which is metaphorical, but it is true in that it relates to lipid peroxidation, which is profoundly important in our bodies. After a bottle of safflower oil has been opened a few times, a few drops that get smeared onto the outside of the bottle begin to get very sticky, and hard to wash off. This property is why it is a valued base for paints and varnishes, but this varnish is chemically closely related to the age pigment that forms "liver spots" on the skin, and similar lesions in the brain, heart, blood vessels, lenses of the eyes, etc. The image of "hard, white saturated coconut oil" isn't relevant to the oil's biological action, but the image of "sticky varnish-like easily oxidized unsaturated seed oils" is highly relevant to their toxicity.

The ability of some of the medium chain saturated fatty acids to inhibit the liver's formation of fat very likely synergizes with the pro-thyroid effect, in allowing energy to be used, rather than stored. When fat isn't formed from carbohydrate, the sugar is available for use, or for storage as glycogen. Therefore, shifting from unsaturated fats in foods to coconut oil involves several anti-stress processes, reducing our need for the adrenal hormones. Decreased blood sugar is a basic signal for the release of adrenal hormones. Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect. It suppresses the activity of the respiratory enzyme (directly, and through its anti-thyroid actions), decreasing the respiratory production of energy. And it tends to direct carbohydrate into fat production, making both stress and obesity more probable. For those of us who use coconut oil consistently, one of the most noticeable changes is the ability to go for several hours without eating, and to feel hungry without having symptoms of hypoglycemia.

One of the stylish ways to promote the use of unsaturated oils is to refer to their presence in "cell membranes," and to claim that they are essential for maintaining "membrane fluidity." As I have mentioned above, it is the ability of the unsaturated fats, and their breakdown products, to interfere with enzymes and transport proteins, which accounts for many of their toxic effects, so they definitely don't just harmlessly form "membranes." They probably bind to all proteins, and disrupt some of them, but for some reason their affinity for proteolytic and respiration-related enzymes is particularly obvious. (I think the chemistry of this association is going to give us some important insights into the nature of organisms.
Metchnikof's model that I have discussed elsewhere might give us a picture of how those factors relate in growth, physiology, and aging.) Unsaturated fats are slightly more water-soluble than fully saturated fats, and so they do have a greater tendency to concentrate at interfaces between water and fats or proteins, but there are relatively few places where these interfaces can be usefully and harmlessly occupied by unsaturated fats, and at a certain point, an excess becomes harmful. We don't want "membranes" forming where there shouldn't be membranes. The fluidity or viscosity of cell surfaces is an extremely complex subject, and the degree of viscosity has to be appropriate for the function of the cell. Interestingly, in some cells, such as the cells that line the air sacs of the lungs, cholesterol and one of the saturated fatty acids found in coconut oil can increase the fluidity of the cell surface.

In many cases, stressful conditions create structural disorder in cells. These influences have been called "chaotropic," or chaos-producing. In red blood cells, which have sometimes been wrongly described as "hemoglobin enclosed in a cell membrane," it has been known for a long time that lipid peroxidation of unsaturated fats weakens the cellular structure, causing the cells to be destroyed prematurely. Lipid peroxidation products are known to be "chaotropic," lowering the rigidity of regions of cells considered to be membranes. But the red blood cell is actually more like a sponge in structure, consisting of a "skeleton" of proteins, which (if not damaged by oxidation) can hold its shape, even when the hemoglobin has been removed. Oxidants damage the protein structure, and it is this structural damage which in turn increases the "fluidity" of the associated fats.

So, it is probably true that in many cases the liquid unsaturated oils do increase "membrane fluidity," but it is now clear that in at least some of those cases the "fluidity" corresponds to the chaos of a damaged cell protein structure. (N. V. Gorbunov, "Effect of structural modification of membrane proteins on lipid-protein interactions in the human erythrocyte membrane," Bull. Exp. Biol. & Med. 116(11), 1364-67. 1993.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-oil.shtml

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113157 I believe he's referring to Peat's argument of PUFA's being stored in your tissues, and thus serving as an obstacle to cellular respiration until they slowly degrade over a period of 4-8 years.

PUFA and sugar should be used dilligently to renew cell membranes of the right consistency and limit fatty acid liberation. I must be having amnesia.