Why do I keep getting tendonitis?

[Zoltanman]

My replies will be in bold: Some cool stuff coming out in this thread
Ok interesting. So here's some relevant details. I have an elbow injury that responded very well to collagen. I take collagen, it ceases hurting. I don't take collagen, it keeps hurting. Fun fact, this halted being the case when Great Lakes changed their formula. It looked different. Tasted different. Didn't mix well. And quit helping. Get ATP Science unflavoured if you can

Anyway, I would get about 24 hours, maybe 48 hours, of relief from one dose. And then by the next day I could tell I had avoided it.

So it's interesting you say it lasts for about 45 minutes. Peak collagen in blood lasts for that long, the curve up and curve down is much longer and whatever you use for healing the site of issue is obviously staying put, hence the benefits.

I would take it before I made food in the morning.

In your experience, does it have to be taken separate from food? No, never made any real difference, but a lot of my experiments were done pre-Peat and so I don't do collagen only now, always with a little juice or some sugar of some kind. 'eating Protein by itself dropping blood sugar and making stress cascades' kind of theory


[/QUOTE]

Will you tell me how much that is in grams? I know grams, not tablespoons. I would imagine 10 table spoons to be about 80g but I'm picturing. I use the basic stainless cutlery you find everywhere, measured it just now and its about 8 grams per tablespoon

[/QUOTE]

Generally I like to play devil's advocate on things like this. They say discs generally repair themselves in 6-8 months anyway. Do you think he would have recovered without the product? His injury stayed at an 8/10 pain or higher for more than the next decade after after the injury, so no. No repair evident. Repair only happens when you have the materials for it. Hence concentration camp victims heading to below 40kg for a 6 foot tall man. No food for repair or replacement of damaged tissue... A lot of people's joints mimic this look, but you just can't SEE the emaciation. It's there, though, evident in the ease of injury or time taken to repair. The discs only healed for him once collagen was introduced to diet. At age 33. Injury at 17 and constant pain till then.

Took 2 months for total pain relief, whereas before he needed 6 codiene to get out of bed and start the day, + regular opiod top-ups during day.

My theory is, repair cycles pause if there's no new repair materials input. This then starts the scavenging (or, eating yourself) so high density joint areas are now pulled at for materials to fix the worst spot. Now, instead of a bad knee, you have a mildly hurting knee and a shoulder joint primed for injury, because the shoulder got cannibalised for parts. It's weaker and you don't know it yet. You get to a point where everything is as bad as it can get, and repair stops.

I reckon same for your ligaments, and that the scavenging is causing the whole body issue / re-injury potential.


[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Not questioning you, but I wonder if it was cognitive here. If you believe Sarno, most pain like that is emotional. If she believed it was going to work, maybe it worked (assuming there was no physically based pain in the first place). The belief she actually had was an ironclad faith in her idiot naturopath, who had presided over her decline for the last 20 years. Was an absolute tool with no nutrtional knowledge. Her pain had gotten so bad she gave in and had 4 joint replacement surgeries booked. Both knees and both hips.

If there was ANY 'only in the mind' component she would have had help from the mind over matter placebo effect well before even talking to me.

I convinced her, as a last hurrah / hail mary throw, at age 62 or 63, to try collagen at high doses along with bone broth and some MSM for sulphur (as per @yerrag post above). She skimped on the bone broth for 2 months due to not understanding the importance of it and general 'oh no, a new task' mental laziness but was diligent with collagen and MSM.

After a month she had decent pain reduction but was still convinced we'd lose the race and all 4 surgeries would be happening. By month 2 pain had diminished more and she started to be cautiously optimistic (so I know we're as far from placebo or emotional components here as we can get. Pain had halved in all joints BUT she was still convinced 'it won't help enough!!!'

By month 3 she had confessed to the laziness broth failing (repeatedly ignoring it running out and not bothering to make more) and I started to give her some of my regular batches I made, improvements went faster with daily intake. (Beef broth 48 hour simmer. Yes, I know, hadn't come across Peat at this point. It still worked...)

She also at start of month 4 confessed that the one knee that had REFUSED to heal up well enough had had 'crunchy gristle crackling' years ago and some idiot surgeon had drilled out the crackle part 'for better movement'. It had (drumroll for the reveal....) never been right since. What a shock... so EVEN THAT knee started responding to the protocol once bone broth was going in daily... and we hit the wall time wise.

The pre-drilled knee was the only one she got replaced. The rest (2 hips and other knee) are still rolling along fine. 4 ish years after the intervention.



[/QUOTE]

Yeah! See above


Might using a larger dose of collagen, like mentioned above, provide sufficient to fix the problems? Or are you still lacking components and those other things should be added first? Cautious experimentation with MSM or @yerrag pure tendon recommendation will be good to try, I reckon. I think you might like how a week of 80g collagen per day feels, too.

This is interesting. I am considering having bigger portions of collagen per day. Is there withdrawal when you stop? One day I was fasting and used like 6 servings of collagen throughout the day and felt great; but this could've been the fasting. Given that fasting dramatically lowers all endotoxin, you might have proven collagen is being de-natured for some detoxification, with that. Maybe try it with a week of Creatine loading and higher egg yolk intake (for choline and gut junction tightening) so you can get more collagen to where the issues are, in the correct amino acid ratios for repair.

Even poisoning can trigger the cannibalising reaction and make your joints, ligaments or tendons hurt. If the choice for body is die within 24 hours or mug/steal from all the glycine rich tissues to mobilise liver detox pathways, you can bet you'll survive. And.... you'll hurt badly later when you lift something or 'bend wrong' or sneeze.

It's not the poison attacking joints or tendons, but it is the foundational reason for the later pain or weakness. This is why I think the collagen working better while fasting is important to note.

Hope this helps! And, thanks @yerrag for the sulphur info input, another piece of the puzzle highlighted!


[/QUOTE]

 

[yerrag]

My replies will be in bold: Some cool stuff coming out in this thread
Ok interesting. So here's some relevant details. I have an elbow injury that responded very well to collagen. I take collagen, it ceases hurting. I don't take collagen, it keeps hurting. Fun fact, this halted being the case when Great Lakes changed their formula. It looked different. Tasted different. Didn't mix well. And quit helping. Get ATP Science unflavoured if you can

Anyway, I would get about 24 hours, maybe 48 hours, of relief from one dose. And then by the next day I could tell I had avoided it.

So it's interesting you say it lasts for about 45 minutes. Peak collagen in blood lasts for that long, the curve up and curve down is much longer and whatever you use for healing the site of issue is obviously staying put, hence the benefits.

I would take it before I made food in the morning.

In your experience, does it have to be taken separate from food? No, never made any real difference, but a lot of my experiments were done pre-Peat and so I don't do collagen only now, always with a little juice or some sugar of some kind. 'eating Protein by itself dropping blood sugar and making stress cascades' kind of theory


Will you tell me how much that is in grams? I know grams, not tablespoons. I would imagine 10 table spoons to be about 80g but I'm picturing. I use the basic stainless cutlery you find everywhere, measured it just now and its about 8 grams per tablespoon


Generally I like to play devil's advocate on things like this. They say discs generally repair themselves in 6-8 months anyway. Do you think he would have recovered without the product? His injury stayed at an 8/10 pain or higher for more than the next decade after after the injury, so no. No repair evident. Repair only happens when you have the materials for it. Hence concentration camp victims heading to below 40kg for a 6 foot tall man. No food for repair or replacement of damaged tissue... A lot of people's joints mimic this look, but you just can't SEE the emaciation. It's there, though, evident in the ease of injury or time taken to repair. The discs only healed for him once collagen was introduced to diet. At age 33. Injury at 17 and constant pain till then.

Took 2 months for total pain relief, whereas before he needed 6 codiene to get out of bed and start the day, + regular opiod top-ups during day.

My theory is, repair cycles pause if there's no new repair materials input. This then starts the scavenging (or, eating yourself) so high density joint areas are now pulled at for materials to fix the worst spot. Now, instead of a bad knee, you have a mildly hurting knee and a shoulder joint primed for injury, because the shoulder got cannibalised for parts. It's weaker and you don't know it yet. You get to a point where everything is as bad as it can get, and repair stops.

I reckon same for your ligaments, and that the scavenging is causing the whole body issue / re-injury potential.


Interesting. Not questioning you, but I wonder if it was cognitive here. If you believe Sarno, most pain like that is emotional. If she believed it was going to work, maybe it worked (assuming there was no physically based pain in the first place). The belief she actually had was an ironclad faith in her idiot naturopath, who had presided over her decline for the last 20 years. Was an absolute tool with no nutrtional knowledge. Her pain had gotten so bad she gave in and had 4 joint replacement surgeries booked. Both knees and both hips.

If there was ANY 'only in the mind' component she would have had help from the mind over matter placebo effect well before even talking to me.

I convinced her, as a last hurrah / hail mary throw, at age 62 or 63, to try collagen at high doses along with bone broth and some MSM for sulphur (as per @yerrag post above). She skimped on the bone broth for 2 months due to not understanding the importance of it and general 'oh no, a new task' mental laziness but was diligent with collagen and MSM.

After a month she had decent pain reduction but was still convinced we'd lose the race and all 4 surgeries would be happening. By month 2 pain had diminished more and she started to be cautiously optimistic (so I know we're as far from placebo or emotional components here as we can get. Pain had halved in all joints BUT she was still convinced 'it won't help enough!!!'

By month 3 she had confessed to the laziness broth failing (repeatedly ignoring it running out and not bothering to make more) and I started to give her some of my regular batches I made, improvements went faster with daily intake. (Beef broth 48 hour simmer. Yes, I know, hadn't come across Peat at this point. It still worked...)

She also at start of month 4 confessed that the one knee that had REFUSED to heal up well enough had had 'crunchy gristle crackling' years ago and some idiot surgeon had drilled out the crackle part 'for better movement'. It had (drumroll for the reveal....) never been right since. What a shock... so EVEN THAT knee started responding to the protocol once bone broth was going in daily... and we hit the wall time wise.

The pre-drilled knee was the only one she got replaced. The rest (2 hips and other knee) are still rolling along fine. 4 ish years after the intervention.


Yeah! See above


Might using a larger dose of collagen, like mentioned above, provide sufficient to fix the problems? Or are you still lacking components and those other things should be added first? Cautious experimentation with MSM or @yerrag pure tendon recommendation will be good to try, I reckon. I think you might like how a week of 80g collagen per day feels, too.

This is interesting. I am considering having bigger portions of collagen per day. Is there withdrawal when you stop? One day I was fasting and used like 6 servings of collagen throughout the day and felt great; but this could've been the fasting. Given that fasting dramatically lowers all endotoxin, you might have proven collagen is being de-natured for some detoxification, with that. Maybe try it with a week of Creatine loading and higher egg yolk intake (for choline and gut junction tightening) so you can get more collagen to where the issues are, in the correct amino acid ratios for repair.

Even poisoning can trigger the cannibalising reaction and make your joints, ligaments or tendons hurt. If the choice for body is die within 24 hours or mug/steal from all the glycine rich tissues to mobilise liver detox pathways, you can bet you'll survive. And.... you'll hurt badly later when you lift something or 'bend wrong' or sneeze.

It's not the poison attacking joints or tendons, but it is the foundational reason for the later pain or weakness. This is why I think the collagen working better while fasting is important to note.

Hope this helps! And, thanks @yerrag for the sulphur info input, another piece of the puzzle highlighted!

Very good observations, of connecting the dots, and analysis!

I can't help but think that the primary purpose of GMOS is to poison us. When we can't help but find it unavoidable to eat foods that are contaminated with glyphosate in the food chain, the fiber of our being is weakened and we are chronically sickened. And made dependent.

Even the beef tendon I eat is contaminated, because GMO inputs are needed for growing and fattening non-organic cows and steers. But maximal minimization is better than eating pork tendon or chicken tendon, where GMO input is even worse.

Trusting certifications of non-GMO is also a fool's game. There's not enough enforcement dollars around to ensure paying dollar guarantees anything. Talmudist companies, rich from profits from their habitual hoaxing which they get away with, with impunity, are using their profits to buy up companies such as Great Lakes, to make health products that are anything but. Ditto with Armour. Ditto with New Chapter. And a whole list of zombie front companies that used to be trusted.

And these front companies make a killing selling fake items and passing them off for the real thing at top dollar.

The Talmudist parasitic glob is ever swallowing us into being consumers of their cum solutions, and drawing us into an ever deepening cycle of becoming victim souls which religion deems to be a stigmata- a perverse state of blessedness, that draws us into more prayers and more acceding to "God's will" when we expire at their ICU altar.

We are their pests being exterminated. And when we breed we leave behind indebted and enslaved descendants that at best become their minions.

 

[Ras]

I had a shoulder injury that bothered me for almost six months, never getting any better. After taking 50,000 to 100,000 IU of Vitamin D3 a day for about two weeks, it disappeared and has not returned at all for over a year.

 

[Ane]

@Zoltanman is there a way to estimate how much grams of collagen to take? I take 1 scoop, 10 grams, everyday, I have tendinitis and joint problems (labral cyst in my shoulder, impingement,...) Since a year and a half ago. Before these problems begun, I tried to up my collagen intake to 30 gr to see if there was a difference, it seemed (can't measure my objectivity at this) that my hair was falling less and my nails broken less (this problems were bog while low carbing for years). The brand I use recommends only 1 scoop, and only going above if a dr or so tells you...

@yerrag is there a way to know if my suphur intake is low?

 

[Zoltanman]

@Zoltanman is there a way to estimate how much grams of collagen to take? I take 1 scoop, 10 grams, everyday, I have tendinitis and joint problems (labral cyst in my shoulder, impingement,...) Since a year and a half ago. Before these problems begun, I tried to up my collagen intake to 30 gr to see if there was a difference, it seemed (can't measure my objectivity at this) that my hair was falling less and my nails broken less (this problems were bog while low carbing for years). The brand I use recommends only 1 scoop, and only going above if a dr or so tells you...

@yerrag is there a way to know if my suphur intake is low?

It seems your brand is following labeling guidelines from the same lovely people that brought you 'Chemo is the only cancer treatment' and 'get jabbed or no life for you'

Follow their guides at your peril, they do NOT put things on labels for your safety. It's to protect the vested interests like Mr Dr Man, who makes $$$$$$ on spinal fusion surgeries and doesn't want a class action lawsuit brought when the sheep discover that collagen regrows back discs and supports cartilage regeneration.

I have seen many good results from 80g daily intake, spread over 4-5 doses. I'm healing now from a bad back injury due to this intake myself. 3 days post injury and I'm 60% recovered already.

I reckon if you get to 80 grams daily and there's no change you have a different problem. Or possibly low cofactor like sulphur. i liked msm trials with small doses to start, earlier in day due to possible wakefulness from it. Like a heaped teaspoon for the day, half breakfast and half lunch.

hope this helps!

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag is there a way to know if my suphur intake is low?

Just offhand, I think that if you eat enough of food people typically eat, and you have a good metabolism that makes you eat enough and burn enough without having to fast often {eg intermittent fasting} nor have to run a lot or workout a lot, you're likely to be eating enough sulfur sources. It's when we listen to "experts" that tell us to not eat stuff because they're bad that we end up eating less nutrients that end up harming us. Eggs have sulfur, meat has sulfur just to name a few examples. And when you eat real cooked food, chances are you'll be eating enough onions that are sulfur-rich as well.

If you're not losing a lot of albumin in urine, which is my case and which caused my high blood pressure, as well as thinning hair, and maybe in weaker nails, you would just be eating well and you'll be fine. In my case, I felt MSM and gelatin helps make up for this loss.

I can just compare with my brother, who has thick hair, and he's just a year younger than me. We more or less eat the same, but his urine is not foamy and he's not losing albumin the way I am, and he doesn't have high bp.

If I were to name one thing, I would say thinning hair is a give-away, and it's a better indicator of sulfur deficiency than of collagen being low.

 

[Ane]

Many thanks @Zoltanman may I ask you some more questions? 80gr + broth/high glycine foods or 80 grams if not other glycine foods are eaten? Is there any problem if other proteins are eaten (milk, fish, meat...) at the same time or that would be too much protein? I usually eat 80 gr protein or less (48 yo woman not active, just walking around, articular cars, but not hard exercise). I have lot of discs with protrusions and dehydrated, so good to know it can be corrected!!

@yerrag. I ate sulfur rich foods while lo carbing, my hair was falling like crazy, I eat less of those foods now, but I do eat collagen, my hair is better (not falling as much, my nails a little better, but my psoriasis has come back). I suppose some nutrients and carbs were missed while low carbing and that now some others are missing at a more "peaty" diet (milk, fruits, collagen...)

 

[Zoltanman]

Many thanks @Zoltanman may I ask you some more questions? 80gr + broth/high glycine foods or 80 grams if not other glycine foods are eaten? Is there any problem if other proteins are eaten (milk, fish, meat...) at the same time or that would be too much protein? I usually eat 80 gr protein or less (48 yo woman not active, just walking around, articular cars, but not hard exercise). I have lot of discs with protrusions and dehydrated, so good to know it can be corrected!!

@yerrag. I ate sulfur rich foods while lo carbing, my hair was falling like crazy, I eat less of those foods now, but I do eat collagen, my hair is better (not falling as much, my nails a little better, but my psoriasis has come back). I suppose some nutrients and carbs were missed while low carbing and that now some others are missing at a more "peaty" diet (milk, fruits, collagen...)

No worries @Ane

I don't count any food content collagen to the 80g daily dose. All of that is extra. You might be burning up a lot of proteins for detoxification and rendering them not as useful for repair. Most people are chronically under protein-ing these days.

Proteins are broken down to fuel the liver's 'boxing up factory' for toxin removal. If your dietary intake is low, or the wrong balance of types of protein, you can't make good boxes for putting your rubbish into. Then, you either get rubbish re-absorbing (leaking out of detox box) or your body takes the right proteins from tissue to make better 'boxes' for the rubbish killing us daily...

This often looks like joints being broken down to get at amino acids needed for removing poisonous mess, making the joint, ligament or tendon weaker.

If collagen lack is your problem you'll see a pain reduction in less than 2 weeks if you move upwards in collagen dose. If you hit 14 days of 80g daily with no changes you've got a different problem.

high sulphur intake while low carbing isn't really a good baseline either. You change your food intake to 'pro metabolic' and a whole bunch of cycles now maybe need more sulphur, or less... hard to say, except to test it with current your body and assess on that. Relying on past info can draw false conclusions. What if you used LOTS of sulphur then to remove waste products from low carb metabolism, and hardly any got to your connective tissue?

Maybe it'll be a whole different story now, without that added load? You'll never know if you take past data as a hard baseline.

I'm trying fish head stock and prawn head broth for added nutrients, currently. Psoriasis is an issue for me too. Low retinol A and low zinc were very helpful finds for me, fixing them makes a big difference, as does Georgi's Idealabs Energin.

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag. I ate sulfur rich foods while lo carbing, my hair was falling like crazy, I eat less of those foods now, but I do eat collagen, my hair is better (not falling as much, my nails a little better, but my psoriasis has come back). I suppose some nutrients and carbs were missed while low carbing and that now some others are missing at a more "peaty" diet (milk, fruits, collagen...)

Remember that Peaty diets is a spectrum in itself. While it is high carb, it's a question mark how the carbs are metabolized. Poorly or efficiently. When efficient or optimal sugar metabolism is achieved, it may be temporary if there arent enough magnesium or retinol or vitamin D available, and when exhausted with poor nutrition, it goes into a subpar metabolic mode.

And since Peat does not view cysteine favorably, some may also think that foods high in cysteine are to be minimized and foods high in glycine/gelatin/collagen to be maxed, then it becomes an issue of being low in sulfur in the diet, as cysteine is sulfur-rich.

And when one starts out already low in sulfur from poor nutrition at an earlier time, then one has to be on a therapeutic intake of sulfur rich sources to build up sulfur in the body before going on a regular maintenance mode of sulfur intake through food and supplementation.

And then knowing your own context matters a lot. Idiot doctors hardly care about context, so it's really up to you to do that. It's a tall task for many to learn about the body and how it works, and it's easy to go into an 'I'm too busy' or 'I'm not worthy' mode and just close the book and run to the nearest person with an 'expert' stamped on his forehead or a piece of paper hanging above him, but fat chance he's gonna take you to your paradise of health.

But Ray Peat's writings are a good resource. Over the years, there is a great body of work he has written in books and newsletters. It is overwhelming to read all of them and I advise to not attempt to. But if there's a subject that interests you, you use a personal search engine of his writings in searchable form. And start reading. Each time you do, if you aim for comprehension you'll know something enough that when somebody says something in the forum on the subject you would be critical in accepting it. Over time you'll find yourself being more familiar with your body and how to care for it.

Certainly Peat doesn't have all the answers, but it is a good launchpad for you take excursions into Youtube videos and research papers. Words that seem Greek to you eventually stop being so.

Keep asking questions and keep sharing as well. If you're sharing what you learn, it makes you retain what you learned and makes you connect the dots and it wires your brain better.

But if you can't because there are valid reasons, this is where the forum comes handy.

 

[Ane]

(Excuse my English if there are too many errors, the longer the text the bigger the possibility to write something wrong)


Many thanks @Zoltanman

If I understand well, liver uses proteins to make transports for everything the body doesn't need (I read to Peat that liver needs protein, but I didn't know this). I suppose the aminoacids the liver needs most are those found in collagen.

The protein needs is so difficult to stablish for me, because there is a lot of contradictory numbers out there (0.8-2 grans oer kg), even it seems Peat now says
less protein is needed as you age! (I read that in this forum). I'm not an expert, just a woman reading.

I didn't know sulphur was used for both, maintaining tissue and liver "detox". I understand what you say about not comparing with old data based on other dirt, I just wanted to point to the fact that now I'm not eating sulphur rich foos, and that maybe I could try to eat more of those. For instance, I eat very few eggs per month now, and I have just find out that they are very rich in sulphur.

2 weeks for finding out if this is the problem is very doable for me, I will try it in October (I'm moving home this month) and I will try to eat more sulphur at the same time, at see what happens. The good thing with collagen is that is very easy to take it, eating high protein foods is more difficult for me. I usually dissolve it in milk with coffee or cocoa, I suppose that there 8s no problem to dissolve all the 80 gr in one big cup and keep it in the fridge, and just sip it through the day.

I do prawn head stock too, which I use for cooking rice, I do the same with lamb neck bones.

Someones in the forum have told me that B vitamins could be something I'm missing in relation with my psoriasis and diet change (higher carb). I eat very very little liver, so Bs and retinol could be low. I'm using big amounts of coconut oil on wet skin and it helps, just in case it can help you too.

@yerrag many thanks. It really seems difficult to know if there is an efficient metabolism or inefficient. In any case nutirient density seems key. Which isn't easy either, I'm trying to find out how to eat all the nutrients with no supplement and a lot of must be eaten!

I see myself in the trip from one extreme to other: cystine/or whatever is bad/good so you eat just this or that to avoid the "bad"
things (carbs, amynoacids etc), or things like is it really bad to eat mushrooms not boiled for hours?

I read papers on these topics, Peat included
or podcast transcripts (I can navigate through written English, but not so much through spoken one). Contradictory information is usual (like serotonin, carb intake, fat intake...). And trusting one's body is something to re-learnt. It took too much time to see that low carbing wasn't doing me any good, for example. Then there are things like you don't know if they are taste and subjective things or something meaningful, for instance, I forced myself to eat eggs while low carbing because "they are good", I have been eaten very few after, but they are more appealing to me if I drink orange juice with them or cook them as a Spanish omelette (with potatoes), or things like my body feels good with starch and fat but I put weight on very quickly (and I have a lot to lose).

 

[ironfist]

My replies will be in bold: Some cool stuff coming out in this thread

Ok interesting. So here's some relevant details. I have an elbow injury that responded very well to collagen. I take collagen, it ceases hurting. I don't take collagen, it keeps hurting. Fun fact, this halted being the case when Great Lakes changed their formula. It looked different. Tasted different. Didn't mix well. And quit helping. Get ATP Science unflavoured if you can

Anyway, I would get about 24 hours, maybe 48 hours, of relief from one dose. And then by the next day I could tell I had avoided it.

So it's interesting you say it lasts for about 45 minutes. Peak collagen in blood lasts for that long, the curve up and curve down is much longer and whatever you use for healing the site of issue is obviously staying put, hence the benefits.

I would take it before I made food in the morning.

In your experience, does it have to be taken separate from food? No, never made any real difference, but a lot of my experiments were done pre-Peat and so I don't do collagen only now, always with a little juice or some sugar of some kind. 'eating Protein by itself dropping blood sugar and making stress cascades' kind of theory

Will you tell me how much that is in grams? I know grams, not tablespoons. I would imagine 10 table spoons to be about 80g but I'm picturing. I use the basic stainless cutlery you find everywhere, measured it just now and its about 8 grams per tablespoon

[/QUOTE]

Generally I like to play devil's advocate on things like this. They say discs generally repair themselves in 6-8 months anyway. Do you think he would have recovered without the product? His injury stayed at an 8/10 pain or higher for more than the next decade after after the injury, so no. No repair evident. Repair only happens when you have the materials for it. Hence concentration camp victims heading to below 40kg for a 6 foot tall man. No food for repair or replacement of damaged tissue... A lot of people's joints mimic this look, but you just can't SEE the emaciation. It's there, though, evident in the ease of injury or time taken to repair. The discs only healed for him once collagen was introduced to diet. At age 33. Injury at 17 and constant pain till then.

Took 2 months for total pain relief, whereas before he needed 6 codiene to get out of bed and start the day, + regular opiod top-ups during day.

My theory is, repair cycles pause if there's no new repair materials input. This then starts the scavenging (or, eating yourself) so high density joint areas are now pulled at for materials to fix the worst spot. Now, instead of a bad knee, you have a mildly hurting knee and a shoulder joint primed for injury, because the shoulder got cannibalised for parts. It's weaker and you don't know it yet. You get to a point where everything is as bad as it can get, and repair stops.

I reckon same for your ligaments, and that the scavenging is causing the whole body issue / re-injury potential.

Interesting. Not questioning you, but I wonder if it was cognitive here. If you believe Sarno, most pain like that is emotional. If she believed it was going to work, maybe it worked (assuming there was no physically based pain in the first place). The belief she actually had was an ironclad faith in her idiot naturopath, who had presided over her decline for the last 20 years. Was an absolute tool with no nutrtional knowledge. Her pain had gotten so bad she gave in and had 4 joint replacement surgeries booked. Both knees and both hips.

If there was ANY 'only in the mind' component she would have had help from the mind over matter placebo effect well before even talking to me.

I convinced her, as a last hurrah / hail mary throw, at age 62 or 63, to try collagen at high doses along with bone broth and some MSM for sulphur (as per @yerrag post above). She skimped on the bone broth for 2 months due to not understanding the importance of it and general 'oh no, a new task' mental laziness but was diligent with collagen and MSM.

After a month she had decent pain reduction but was still convinced we'd lose the race and all 4 surgeries would be happening. By month 2 pain had diminished more and she started to be cautiously optimistic (so I know we're as far from placebo or emotional components here as we can get. Pain had halved in all joints BUT she was still convinced 'it won't help enough!!!'

By month 3 she had confessed to the laziness broth failing (repeatedly ignoring it running out and not bothering to make more) and I started to give her some of my regular batches I made, improvements went faster with daily intake. (Beef broth 48 hour simmer. Yes, I know, hadn't come across Peat at this point. It still worked...)

She also at start of month 4 confessed that the one knee that had REFUSED to heal up well enough had had 'crunchy gristle crackling' years ago and some idiot surgeon had drilled out the crackle part 'for better movement'. It had (drumroll for the reveal....) never been right since. What a shock... so EVEN THAT knee started responding to the protocol once bone broth was going in daily... and we hit the wall time wise.

The pre-drilled knee was the only one she got replaced. The rest (2 hips and other knee) are still rolling along fine. 4 ish years after the intervention.

Yeah! See above


Might using a larger dose of collagen, like mentioned above, provide sufficient to fix the problems? Or are you still lacking components and those other things should be added first? Cautious experimentation with MSM or @yerrag pure tendon recommendation will be good to try, I reckon. I think you might like how a week of 80g collagen per day feels, too.

This is interesting. I am considering having bigger portions of collagen per day. Is there withdrawal when you stop? One day I was fasting and used like 6 servings of collagen throughout the day and felt great; but this could've been the fasting. Given that fasting dramatically lowers all endotoxin, you might have proven collagen is being de-natured for some detoxification, with that. Maybe try it with a week of Creatine loading and higher egg yolk intake (for choline and gut junction tightening) so you can get more collagen to where the issues are, in the correct amino acid ratios for repair.

Even poisoning can trigger the cannibalising reaction and make your joints, ligaments or tendons hurt. If the choice for body is die within 24 hours or mug/steal from all the glycine rich tissues to mobilise liver detox pathways, you can bet you'll survive. And.... you'll hurt badly later when you lift something or 'bend wrong' or sneeze.

It's not the poison attacking joints or tendons, but it is the foundational reason for the later pain or weakness. This is why I think the collagen working better while fasting is important to note.

Hope this helps! And, thanks @yerrag for the sulphur info input, another piece of the puzzle highlighted!

[/QUOTE]
Hey, thanks for spending the time to reply.

Is the 80g arbitrary?

Do you notice any worsening of symptoms when you stop?

Do you start gradually or go 80g all at once on the first day?

It seems like your ATP collagen is Type 1 and 3 so would we assume that any Type 1 and 3 product would work?

 

[youngsinatra]

I’d focus on optimizing your copper status.
If it‘s at the bottom of the „normal range“, then there is lots of room for betterment. (I think serum copper should be around 100 and ceruloplasmin around 30, so a 3.33 ratio)

Copper is critical for collagen crosslinking (lysyl oxidase is copper dependent), iron regulation (low copper may lead to proportionally greater iron storage in the tissue) and mitochondrial respiration.

I know a few bodybuilders who probably are low in copper, because of their diet and heavy zinc supplementation. They often have chronic ongoing injuries, chronic joint pain and seem dependent on collagen / joint matrix supplements for their joint health.

Getting a potential copper deficiency straightened out is much more important than loading up on collagen peptides, for example.

 

[ironfist]

I made a thread about copper earlier. My levels are pretty low even when I supplement. I've also heard worrisome things about copper supplementation.

I cannot even take zinc once or I get tendonitis.

 

[ecstatichamster]

eating liver, oysters and mushrooms will increase copper, with zinc and selenium, very nicely.

 

[Zoltanman]

[/QUOTE]
Hey, thanks for spending the time to reply. No worries!

Is the 80g arbitrary?
It's my (just my experience with myself and clients in the clinic) useful max dose to see if collagen helps. If you do this and it doesn't go away more won't help.

Do you notice any worsening of symptoms when you stop?
I gradually hurt more when I slow down collagen intake below 20g daily. So I don't stop. Glycine and other collagen components balance out muscle meat consumption to a more 'nose to tail' diet.

Do you start gradually or go 80g all at once on the first day?
Do 1 -2 doses of 1 heaped tablespoon and assess. Graudually work up to the 8 tablespoon daily (spread out doses as I described orginally, for lots of collagen blood level spikes) so you can assess if you will get detox reactions from it.

It seems like your ATP collagen is Type 1 and 3 so would we assume that any Type 1 and 3 product would work? No. The issues about great lakes being bought out and benefits stopping when methods change show that it's got to be made by a smart manufacturer to help us when we eat it. Quality matters. I know how ATP make their stuff, and spent some time checking their collagen out + talking to their team. I was a rep at one point but not since closing clinic.
[/QUOTE]


@youngsinatra raises a valid point, maybe copper is an issue, especially if a zinc dose hits you up for immediate tendon issues. Please don't ignore rate of burn / rate of intake though. Calling a bodybuilder 'dependant' on collagen can be right, but may sometimes be an over-simplification. My reasoning:

Think about a desk jockey who bikes for an hour on the weekend... he takes 4 tablespoons daily for a week to stop his back hurting. It works. Awesome! His peptide deficiency is sorted (for now) so repairs kick in.

Now, our bodybuilder has just moved 2300 kilos up and down in only 1 set of hack squats... and he's got 3 sets to go. Can he just expect the same results from 4 tablespoons of collagen? Or, is his load so much greater on all the joints and tendons that he needs to go to 120 grams daily for pain reduction? Is he dependant? Or just adjusting his diet to suit his load? (This can only be answered on a case by case basis) And, this doesn't yet allow for all the glycine + other goodies needed to offset the amino ratio of the metric crap-ton of protein taken daily by our bodybuilder. How much collagen actually gets to the joints for repair?

I second @ecstatichamster with the food recommendations to get up your copper to useful levels, and add in fish head broth (non oily white flesh fish, please, fatty fish broth is hard to get right, and if done badly it's super gag inducing) and making soup or broth with prawn heads. (strain both of these super well please. The scratching from Oyster shell shards, fish scales or prawn carapace going through you is a serotonin storm nightmare you might want to die to get away from)

Selenium, copper and other co-factors CANNOT be ignored, and you get hundreds of different types of vitamins and mineral complexes in well prepared food rather than 1 thing in a purified supplement... The "i TOOook sleENN-eeUm anD it DID NOooo-thing" guy needs the other 80-350 components in prawn heads or liver or kidneys to allow it to work. I WAS that guy for years, and then reality gave me a boost with a really well made fish broth w/prawn heads one time, and a light bulb went off! SUCH. GOOD. FOOD.

Any time I start doing more poorly I look at my food based vitamin loading and see big holes that gradually crept in.

Hank Shaw is a great cook. This is worth doing: Fish Stock Recipe - How to Make Fish Stock / Shrimp Stock Recipe - How to Make Shrimp Stock | Hank Shaw crack on with some of this in your weekly diet, people. You'll be happy you did!

 

[ironfist]

using their profits to buy up companies such as Great Lakes

It's noteworthy you mention this, as I mentioned before, they were a wonderful company that made a great product until they changed the formula. It went from taking away pain to not. The texture was different. Color was different. I have side by side pics of their product when they changed it. It's literally different.

I called and complained. They sent a replacement. It was still awful.

 

[Zoltanman]

Hi @Ane sorry I missed your previous post, I'll answer in the next 8-9 hours. Sorry for the delay!

 

[ironfist]

I am taking collagen again. I'm up to 15g a day.

I have some msm too but I stopped taking it years ago. I think it's because it made me feel pumped like caffeine.

 

[parallax]

I have a history of getting tendonitis when I hang around certain toxic people. This often meant getting tendonitis when on vacation. The emotional angle certainly hold weight for me, but there are biomechanical aspects and probably blood / lymph flow is relevant as well.
Addressing the biomechanical aspect, I have often been able to find a specifc exercise that quickly improves my given tendonitis symptoms. For patellar tendonitis, wall sits. For achilies tendonitis, which has been the most recalcitrant, regular leg massage and relatively heavy, slow calf raises. Bicept tendonitis from overtraining required several weeks of laying off workouts, but high rep elastic band curls, 50-100 reps per set fixed the issue over several weeks, but I am still careful to take short reps with reduced extension whenever I lift heavier in the gym. Bicept tendonitis was a bit of a different beast for me, the consequence of years of enjoying heavy curls like a classic meathead. Now I curl with partial reps like Phil Heath.

In the absence of a specific movement to "cure" a specific tendonitis, in general I find that training and painful area in almost any way that doesn't hurt seems to be the best path forward. For example I have torn rotator cuffs in both shoulders and many overhead pressing movements can be quite painful, but I found lateral raises to be painless, so I stuck with those, just one or two workouts per week, and recovered to 95% after a couple months.

Most recently I had a tryst with peroneal tendonitis, and I was able to get past that by plantar flexion stretching and clearing up some toxic bad attitudes I was haunted by.

edit:
p.s., +1 for gellatin / collagen. A big dose too late keeps me up at night, but I'm up happy and dancing.

 

[Zoltanman]

Replies in bold:

Many thanks @Zoltanman No worries! @Ane

If I understand well, liver uses proteins to make transports for everything the body doesn't need (I read to Peat that liver needs protein, but I didn't know this). I suppose the aminoacids the liver needs most are those found in collagen. Proteins of all sorts help detox, as they break down to slightly different amino acids used to exctrete rubbish and rebuild our systems. It's not just collagen, but often collagen is easily depleted due to glycine in it being so needed.

The protein needs is so difficult to stablish for me, because there is a lot of contradictory numbers out there (0.8-2 grans oer kg), even it seems Peat now says
less protein is needed as you age! (I read that in this forum) Yes, he did say that, but protein needs when you are healthy old is different from being the same age and needing desperately to detox a lot of rubbish. I'm not an expert, just a woman reading.

I didn't know sulphur was used for both, maintaining tissue and liver "detox". I understand what you say about not comparing with old data based on other dirt, I just wanted to point to the fact that now I'm not eating sulphur rich foos, and that maybe I could try to eat more of those. For instance, I eat very few eggs per month now, and I have just find out that they are very rich in sulphur. Upping eggs sounds like a good move, to assess effects.

2 weeks for finding out if this is the problem is very doable for me, I will try it in October (I'm moving home this month) and I will try to eat more sulphur at the same time, at see what happens. The good thing with collagen is that is very easy to take it, eating high protein foods is more difficult for me. I usually dissolve it in milk with coffee or cocoa, I suppose that there 8s no problem to dissolve all the 80 gr in one big cup and keep it in the fridge, and just sip it through the day. This is an excellent idea, and I've recommended this sip it technique to many people

I do prawn head stock too, which I use for cooking rice, I do the same with lamb neck bones. Yum!

Someones in the forum have told me that B vitamins could be something I'm missing in relation with my psoriasis and diet change (higher carb). I eat very very little liver, (dried liver in caps is 100x better than no liver. Well worth doing) so Bs and retinol could be low. Georgi's Energin is EXCELLENT!! I'm using big amounts of coconut oil on wet skin and it helps, just in case it can help you too. Thanks, yes, I've found this helpful too

@yerrag many thanks. It really seems difficult to know if there is an efficient metabolism or inefficient. In any case nutirient density seems key. Which isn't easy either, I'm trying to find out how to eat all the nutrients with no supplement and a lot of must be eaten! Supplements can easily make the difference when we are stuck, the key is the right ones for what we personally are missing.

I see myself in the trip from one extreme to other: cystine/or whatever is bad/good so you eat just this or that to avoid the "bad"
things (carbs, amynoacids etc), or things like is it really bad to eat mushrooms not boiled for hours? Some things will hurt you badly, while others have no issues with them. It's a learning curve for how your body 'machine' operates. As you heal, you will get less reactive and be able to re-introduce more things that caused issues before.

I read papers on these topics, Peat included
or podcast transcripts (I can navigate through written English, but not so much through spoken one). Contradictory information is usual (like serotonin, carb intake, fat intake...). And trusting one's body is something to re-learnt. It took too much time to see that low carbing wasn't doing me any good, for example. Then there are things like you don't know if they are taste and subjective things or something meaningful, for instance, I forced myself to eat eggs while low carbing because "they are good", I have been eaten very few after, but they are more appealing to me if I drink orange juice with them or cook them as a Spanish omelette (with potatoes), or things like my body feels good with starch and fat but I put weight on very quickly (and I have a lot to lose).

Do try not to confuse glycogen rich tissue with fat gain. Same for mucin in tissues, or stagnant lymph. putting on a kilo from adding enough carbohydates can sometimes mean you have just replenished glycogen stores! An anti thyroid meal can increase lymph clogging and water retention so that you feel 3 kilos heavier... an inflamed gut that has 10x too much serotonin in it can thicken and redden till it's 3x it's start weight. These things can discourage ANYONE if they haven't got the cause worked out.

Keep us posted @ironfist , also @parallax has reminded me that movement is a needed ingredient when you want to drive collagen rich blood to tissues for healing... there's no substitute for movement. How much better the injuries get when we gently let the body know they're needing attention and have the healing doses flowing past in the blood supply.