VoS Uncoupling Thread

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Takeaway: not only do small frequent doses of Peat's uncouplers cause rapid weight loss, perhaps more potently than DNP, but his diet lets you gain lean body mass, while you are losing fat at the same time! Lose fat, get ripped, feel great... It's all good!

You definitely have a lot to add on the forum, but how can you say this when you have not lost weight/fat through this yourself? You answered my question about fat loss by saying you know because you've tested your own CO2 levels.

It's back to the conjecture with lots of exclamation marks.

IT'S A MIRACLE!

I think you're right, I am using some scientific postulates to prop up the argument, namely, that mitochondrial uncoupling raises metabolic rate, which in turn is measurable by end-tidal CO2. There is not much controversy about this, I hope, or that I've seen.*

But assuming those postulates to be true, then I think my takeaway follows.
mitochondria uncoupling -> increased metabolic rate -> increased end-tidal CO2 ->(implied) miracle weight loss

As far as the "miracle" goes, DNP really was a miracle weight loss drug in the 30s. It's just not available now.** Mitochondrial uncoupling is the real deal when it comes to weight loss, and remedying metabolic disorders. And Peat is trying hard to show us all how to do it.



*SAFarmer might point out, it would be better, yes, if I measured my metabolic rate in a metabolic chamber, but that's not practical, unless you live in SA like him and have an open source metabolic chamber.

**You might know better than me, since your pic in the GR thread makes you look like a bodybuilder, but in the underground bodybuilding community, there might be some who (illicitly!) cut with DNP and get miraculous results.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Well, I have lost 38 pounds of pure unadulterated fat so far, but I kept my fat very low for the most part which resulted in a lower caloric intake, so no miracle there I suppose.

Yes, there have been times where I pushed too hard with aspirin, caffeine and niacinamide and in those instances I immediately chug down orange juice and eat pure sugar, right off the spoon sometimes up to 12 spoonfuls at a time, to quell the stress because it is uncomfortable. LOTS of plain old sugar works perfectly. I have also experienced the difficulty falling asleep and feeling like my feet were on fire. They weren't hot to the touch, but the increased circulation while trying to fall asleep was noticeably intense.

I guess for me, being able to raise my metabolism and actually burn sugar is indeed A MIRACLE!....but there is NO way I would shoot for 12% body fat as a middle aged woman, just seems unhealthy. My experiment continues and so we shall see...

 

[tara]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Vos: 'The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat'
Translation: 'The Fat-Loss Hypothesis Proposed by VoS'

VoS: 'Peat's later strategies',
'Enter Peat. The new discovery here, for me and I think for everyone on this forum, is that Peat's work centers on mitochondrial uncouplers, very similar to DNP. Who knew? More than that, it is the management of the blood plasma concentration of these uncouplers that makes them effective.'
Translation: Several of the substances Peat has described as being helpful in many situations are mitchondrial uncouplers. Peat has mentioned the uncoupling process. This may be one of the reasons they are helpful for various conditions/processes (there are clearly other reasons too). VoS speculates (believes this implies) that if only we could maintain plasma concentrations of these mitochondrial uncouplers in optimal ranges for more of the day, anyone would burn stored fat.

VoS: ... simple ...
Translation: Peat describes many complex interactions, VoS interprets this and synthesises a few key points into a simple hypothesis.

VoS: If it hasn't worked for you, you probably weren't doing it right.
Translation: When I do all these things I get higher end-tidal CO2 levels and feel really good. I gained lean mass and didn't gain fat when I did all these things. I speculate that for some people it could be possible to lose fat while doing these things.

VoS; It worked for me; it should work for everyone.
Translation: The only study so far was n=1, and n did not lose weight. In fact, he gained weight, though it was mostly lean.

VoS: mitochondria uncoupling -> increased metabolic rate -> increased end-tidal CO2 ->(implied) miracle weight loss
Translation: Who needs empirical evidence when the theory is so clear.

I do not consider it accurate or courteous to state that Peat thinks or feels anything that he hasn't actually said explicitly himself. I also think it could mislead new-comers. You can refer to his ideas, you can quote him (or accurately paraphrase him), in ways that acknowledge his contribution to your thinking without attributing all your own speculations and simplifications to him.

Sometimes it looks like a marketing campaign. This does not inspire trust in me.

Peat seems to me to value empirical evidence, not just theory. I have read a number of places where he has denounced over-simplifications of our complex human internal systems. I have not got the impression that he particularly wants to promote his work as being primarily about weight (or fat) loss, any more than he wants to sell it as the solution to baldness. He seems to be interested in helping people understand more about how our bodies work and how we can preserve and recover healthy functioning. I also see him encouraging us to take a critical view of oversimplifications and marketing hype.

I think it is possible (even likely) that the tactics you propose may be helpful for some people in some situations, and that it may result in fat-loss for some of them. I don't think it is established that it is possible or desirable for everyone, in all our various states. Raising body temperature more consistently seems as though it could be a benefit for quite a few of us.

I think there are also potential dangers. As we know, there is extreme social pressure on people to conform to an unhealthily low weight and fat level. I think the marketing approach here colludes with this theme. There are a lot of people who are vulnerable to 'weigh-loss miracle' advertising who really aren't going to do themselves any health favours if they force their bodies to lose weight. There are large chunks of human history, current geography, and portions of any population, for whom 'weight-loss miracle' would be oxymoronic.
There may be good reasons why we have evolved systems that don't use uncoupled mitochondrial processes all the time. Biohacking to override this may have risks we are unaware of, as well as the obvious ones.

I don't mean it would be unwise to experiment - I will be interested to read other people's results if they try it. But it would be good to go into such experiments with open eyes to notice both positive and negative effects (if any), not blanket assurances.

I value the information you share about your own experience with these tactics, and your speculations about what might be happening and what might be possible. I would like it better if you claimed your speculations as such instead of attributing them to Peat or assigning unfounded certainty to them.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

t, I don't mean this as an anti-fat campaign, I hope you realize? I'm just saying you will, necessarily, get thinner, and perhaps reach your ideal weight, as you increase your metabolic rate (with "uncoupling" or perhaps "field stabilizing" if you prefer), and thereby remedy any metabolic disorder you might have? You can't doubt that, can you?

Other than that, I think you're right about everything, but especially this:

If only we could maintain plasma concentrations of these mitochondrial uncouplers in optimal ranges for more of the day, anyone would burn stored fat.

The empirical evidence for this is the end-tidal CO2 readings, which anyone should be able to replicate, because metabolic rate is accurately measured by these readings.

If anyone anywhere in the world took DNP (within its therapeutic window) that person would "miraculously" lose weight and remedy many metabolic disorders (i.e., that person's end-tidal CO2 readings would increase).

But you can't take DNP, and doctors can't prescribe it. Hmm, let's see, can pharma companies patent it, and charge thousands of dollars for it? NO!!! Ah, now we see what's really going on! No huge profit == it's banned!

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Well, I have lost 38 pounds of pure unadulterated fat so far, but I kept my fat very low for the most part which resulted in a lower caloric intake, so no miracle there I suppose.

Yes, there have been times where I pushed too hard with aspirin, caffeine and niacinamide and in those instances I immediately chug down orange juice and eat pure sugar, right off the spoon sometimes up to 12 spoonfuls at a time, to quell the stress because it is uncomfortable. LOTS of plain old sugar works perfectly. I have also experienced the difficulty falling asleep and feeling like my feet were on fire. They weren't hot to the touch, but the increased circulation while trying to fall asleep was noticeably intense.

I guess for me, being able to raise my metabolism and actually burn sugar is indeed A MIRACLE!....but there is NO way I would shoot for 12% body fat as a middle aged woman, just seems unhealthy. My experiment continues and so we shall see...

Yes, I agree about the need for sugar. I asked haidut about this, over in his thread, and he posted a really interesting answer:

sensitivity to caffeine reported by many people may actually be affected by liver function a lot more than availability of glycogen. People with good liver function will get into gluconeogenesis mode relatively quickly in the absense of glycogen and will not experience many of the negative side effects of caffein. On the other hand, people with sluggish livers can get jittery from as little as 50mg of caffeine even if taken with enough sugar/fat.
IMO, "tolerance" to caffeine is great proxy test for liver function. The higher dose of caffeine you can handle without getting the jitters and anxiety, the better your liver is working. It is also a feedback loop since the more caffeine you ingest the better your liver function becomes. So, my advice is to start with 100mg-200mg doses and work up from that. Once you reach 600mg dose, your liver is probably working better than the liver of a college student. You can test it by drinking alcohol and you will be amazed at how quickly you'll sober up if your liver is in good shape
Not that I am advising drinking alcohol on a regular basis.

 

[tara]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

t, I don't mean this as an anti-fat campaign, I hope you realize? I'm just saying you will, necessarily, get thinner, and perhaps reach your ideal weight, as you increase your metabolic rate (with "uncoupling" or perhaps "field stabilizing" if you prefer), and thereby remedy any metabolic disorder you might have? You can't doubt that, can you?

Yeah, right, the phrasing of "Weight-Loss Miracle" had nothing to do with appealling to people who feel socially pressured to lose fat. Even here you seem to presume that 'getting thinner' is likely to be a movement towards an 'ideal weight'. And it's not clear whether 'ideal ' here means 'desired' or 'optimally healthy'. This kind of ambiguity seems to play to society's more widespread confusion on the subject. Whether you meant it that way or not.

You are quoting me out of context: by leaving out the bit where I say "VoS speculates (believes this implies) that" you make it sound as if I am making this assertion:

"If only we could maintain plasma concentrations of these mitochondrial uncouplers in optimal ranges for more of the day, anyone would burn stored fat."

which I have not done. This instance is not a big deal in itself, but it exemplifies your habit of quoting short extracts without context in a way that attributes your own opinion to someone else.

The empirical evidence for this is the end-tidal CO2 readings, which anyone should be able to replicate, because metabolic rate is accurately measured by these readings.

Your empirical evidence seems to be that after habitually inhaling extra CO2 for prolonged periods, your end-tidal CO2 level is increased. I believe this. There are several a big leaps from there to your statement of the weight-loss hypothesis. Your hypothesis is not tested, let alone demonstrated.

If anyone anywhere in the world took DNP (within its therapeutic window) that person would "miraculously" lose weight and remedy many metabolic disorders (i.e., that person's end-tidal CO2 readings would increase).

I gather this has not been demonstrated either. I doubt that it would be true for everyone, though perhaps it would for some. I think there is anti-fat bias in using the word 'miraculous' associated with inevitable weight- or fat- loss.

But you can't take DNP, and doctors can't prescribe it. Hmm, let's see, can pharma companies patent it, and charge thousands of dollars for it? NO!!! Ah, now we see what's really going on! No huge profit == it's banned!

I haven't read the history of DNP, so I can't assess your interpretation here. I do recognise that big pharma has applied pressure to discourage use of various things that mess with their profits, so I'm not ruling out the possibility. But just because big-pharma can't profit from something doesn't make it automatically safe or a good idea, either. My understanding was that there were safety concerns with DNP because the possibly-dangerous range may be too close to the therapeutic range. Given that many people will do all sorts of health-hazardous things to lose weight, caution with such a substance may be wise.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

t, I don't mean this as an anti-fat campaign, I hope you realize? I'm just saying you will, necessarily, get thinner, and perhaps reach your ideal weight, as you increase your metabolic rate (with "uncoupling" or perhaps "field stabilizing" if you prefer), and thereby remedy any metabolic disorder you might have? You can't doubt that, can you?

Yeah, right, the phrasing of "Weight-Loss Miracle" had nothing to do with appealling to people who feel socially pressured to lose fat. Even here you seem to presume that 'getting thinner' is likely to be a movement towards an 'ideal weight'. And it's not clear whether 'ideal ' here means 'desired' or 'optimally healthy'. This kind of ambiguity seems to play to society's more widespread confusion on the subject. Whether you meant it that way or not.

t, do you know anyone who actually wants to lose weight, who feels socially pressured, I mean in real life?

I do, too. The people I know who want to lose weight are constantly being bombarded with cons and hoaxes, and fad diets that only make it worse.

I find the best thing I can do for the people I know who want to lose weight is to say how to do it, safely, by using Peat's uncouplers. That's what I'm trying to do here, for those I don't happen to know. The evidence that Peat's theory of uncoupling works for weight loss, going back to the 30s, is impressive.

I also feel it is a public service to publish this here, especially when as Peat has pointed out, no major book publishers will publish Peat's work. If so many desperate to lose weight can search and find Peat's work here, in this thread, they may be helped, and saved from weight loss cons and hoaxes.

 

[sm1693]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I don't like how some bash VoS for his written tonality being too extreme. He writes with a tone of excitement and interest that endows this whole RP community with excitement for these new ideas. How many people are lurking on this forum, with health issues that need solving, but are unable to actually join the conversation for a lack of scientific understanding? These folks will appreciate an usher gesturing the right direction for them to proceed in (even if later proven wrong).

Attack VoS for his science. Refute him on the battlefield of scientific debate and call him out if he puts words in RP's mouth. If he or anyone else is proven wrong, that is perfectly fine, because it's okay to be wrong sometimes. The search will just continue to higher and higher truths.

Me thinks that NOT having any emotional undercurrent in discussions here STILL portrays an emotional picture, and that picture is one of boredom, overly logical, placing facts above fun... ie unhealthy. Balance is nice. Many people are already doing a great job at portraying excellent health here.

If a healthy child lives in excitement for most of their day, then perhaps VoS could be the healthiest of us all.

 

[aquaman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

If only we could maintain plasma concentrations of these mitochondrial uncouplers in optimal ranges for more of the day, anyone would burn stored fat.

Stop writing these ideas of yours like they're gospel.

They're ideas, with no real scientific proof, and without any personal proof either. It's n = 0 in your case.

If you want to write this, you need to preface these comments with *I THINK*, and not state them like they are true.

And Peat is trying hard to show us all how to do it.

Please give references where he explicitly says that keeping blood plasma concentrations of uncouplers low and steady all day long is the answer to weight loss.

He did a weight loss show last year on one of the radio interviews and didn't mention this. I've never heard him talk about taking about low all-day doses of uncouplers.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I don't like how some bash VoS for his written tonality being too extreme. He writes with a tone of excitement and interest that endows this whole RP community with excitement for these new ideas. How many people are lurking on this forum, with health issues that need solving, but are unable to actually join the conversation for a lack of scientific understanding? These folks will appreciate an usher gesturing the right direction for them to proceed in (even if later proven wrong).

Attack VoS for his science. Refute him on the battlefield of scientific debate and call him out if he puts words in RP's mouth. If he or anyone else is proven wrong, that is perfectly fine, because it's okay to be wrong sometimes. The search will just continue to higher and higher truths.

Me thinks that NOT having any emotional undercurrent in discussions here STILL portrays an emotional picture, and that picture is one of boredom, overly logical, placing facts above fun... ie unhealthy. Balance is nice. Many people are already doing a great job at portraying excellent health here.

If a healthy child lives in excitement for most of their day, then perhaps VoS could be the healthiest of us all.

It's true I seem to have come upon a state of stress-free "bliss", as Peat describes it. It's associated with my now higher end-tidal CO2 of 6% as far as I can see. For comparison, when I started this my end-tidal CO2 was 4%, which is where, unfortunately, the population norm is.

While diet seems to have played some part, and one thing I am rigorous about is avoiding unsaturated fat, It seems to me that supplementation with CO2, red light, the uncouplers and protective steroids has been more closely correlated with boosting CO2, measured at the end of a breath.

I'm really not putting words in Peat's mouth, I don't think. Peat is quoted as saying

Even a measurement of the percentage of carbon dioxide at the end of a single breath can give an indication of the stress-free, thyroid hormone stimulated rate of metabolism (it should approach five or six percent of the expired air).

But even now, in my seeming state of bliss, I feel I err, if anything, on the side of caution, having been the victim myself of too many "conmen and quacks" (Peat's phrase, again). I mean, I tested this exhaustively for weeks, using end-tidal CO2 readings, before I ever posted anything about it. And anybody should be able to replicate my tests.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

If only we could maintain plasma concentrations of these mitochondrial uncouplers in optimal ranges for more of the day, anyone would burn stored fat.

Stop writing these ideas of yours like they're gospel.

They're ideas, with no real scientific proof, and without any personal proof either. It's n = 0 in your case.

If you want to write this, you need to preface these comments with *I THINK*, and not state them like they are true.

And Peat is trying hard to show us all how to do it.

Please give references where he explicitly says that keeping blood plasma concentrations of uncouplers low and steady all day long is the answer to weight loss.

He did a weight loss show last year on one of the radio interviews and didn't mention this. I've never heard him talk about taking about low all-day doses of uncouplers.

There was sufficient evidence in the 1930s to say that the chemical uncouplers like DNP caused weight loss. Here is a summary from the opening post in this thread:

The notable success of the uncoupler DNP (2,4-dinitrophenol) as a treatment for human obesity in the 1930s provided an important proof-of-concept and showed that the beneficial effect of uncoupling on energy expenditure is not overwhelmed by compensatory increases in caloric intake. The early literature on treatment of humans and previous studies in rats suggest that DNP matches or outperforms modern drug candidates at causing weight loss [1,4–6]. However, the narrow therapeutic window of DNP and other conventional uncouplers led to the abandonment of their official use in treatment of obesity. Increases (3–10-fold) above the minimum effective dose result in too much uncoupling, leading to compromised ATP production, hyperthermia and death. Concern over this narrow therapeutic window was one of the primary reasons that DNP was withdrawn from the market in 1938 [1,5–7].

More recently, in studies I've cited in my posts, we've learned that uncoupling of mitochondrial respiration is dependent on blood plasma concentrations.

And as I've posted elsewhere, Kaufman learned in the 1940s from his clinical practice with niacinamide that small, frequent doses were the key to efficacy in the treatment of a wide range of ailments. See Memoir: Niacinamide as a Therapeutic Agent

I didn't expect Peat to disagree with the studies I've posted, or with Kaufman, anymore than I do. Nonetheless, October 7, in advance of publishing this information, I asked Peat:

If Kaufman's clinical observation is correct, that niacinamide has a half-life of 90 minutes, or at least is more effective when divided into bi-hourly doses, might the other "redox balancers" (thyroid, progesterone, and DHEA) have a short half-life, too, or be more effective when divided into bi-hourly doses?

Peat answered:

Yes, things with a general protective redox effect I have found to be fairly continuous.

Now, I don't say this because I am trying to prove you wrong, or what I am saying "gospel". You're not wrong, and there's no gospel according to Peat.* I am simply trying to help those who are here seeking help, by providing the best information that is available, and to protect against the legion of "conmen and quacks" that prey on the public for enormous gain.

*It's a matter of context.

 

[superhuman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Thats great VoS.
Rp recommend aspirin 3x a day why didnt he mention that one could take it more often? Or did he w aspirin aswell?
Same goes w niacinamide where he recommends 3x a day

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Thats great VoS.
Rp recommend aspirin 3x a day why didnt he mention that one could take it more often? Or did he w aspirin aswell?

Yes, I think Peat is good about answering questions, but at the same time tries to be careful about giving very specific advice that might be confused with the practice of medicine.

Myself, I feel like we can see the results of the study and judge dosing for ourselves, knowing that the half-life of 300-500 mg dose of aspirin is a little more than 3 hours, and that you want to keep the concentration "under the peak" of the graph.

So I start the day with 1 gram to build up the concentration and then I take about a third that much every two to three hours. I think you could also do it with longer periods of time, maybe .5 grams every four hours, or maybe 1 gram three times a day (every eight hours), but the longer you spread it out, the less time you spend "under the peak" of the graph.

Really, it's whatever happens to be practical for you, according to your day. Actually doing it, and not giving up, or getting discouraged, is really the key. You will lose weight, because you will increase your metabolic rate (which is measured by the CO2 that you breathe out).

And provided you eat plenty of protein and fructose, and superhuman I mean you!, then you will maintain your lean body mass, while losing fat. Boom!

 

[superhuman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Great man. Why u start w 1 gram btw? U take vit k? To not cause bleeding? How much and often do u take niacinamide?

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Great man. Why u start w 1 gram btw? U take vit k? To not cause bleeding? How much and often do u take niacinamide?

Well, in the morning, after a long sleep, your concentration is low, so you need to raise it, and then keep it raised.

I do supplement Vitamin E, D, K (haidut's stuff is good, or see toxinless.com for sources), and niacinamide, everything in small doses, every few hours, or as often as it's practical.

Don't let it become a burden. If you tie it to snacking, you'll think of it as a treat and look forward to it!

 

[superhuman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Great, thanx. Is it just aspirin and niacinamide u take in very frequent doses? What about using b1 aswell since it plays a big role in sugar metabolism.
U mention u use dhea and progesterone also. I know rp recommends pregnenolone for males and that it can be used taken once a week or once a day

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Great, thanx. Is it just aspirin and niacinamide u take in very frequent doses? What about using b1 aswell since it plays a big role in sugar metabolism.
U mention u use dhea and progesterone also. I know rp recommends pregnenolone for males and that it can be used taken once a week or once a day

Yes, I use B1/thiamine (50 mg), too.

Thyroid-S (.5 grain) + Progest-E (drop) + DHEA (5mg speck!) == basically, steroids for men.

I can't say enough good things about it. Don't get me started, since I'm in a state of bliss at the moment. I hope to publish another thread about it, because it rocks your world, guys! Caveat Usor: Tiny, frequent doses!!!!

 

[John Eels]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

When I'm uncoupling the cheeks turn to a very healthy color.

 

[loess]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Any particular reason you prefer Thyroid-S over Thiroyd/ other NDTs?

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Any particular reason you prefer Thyroid-S over Thiroyd/ other NDTs?

No, I just wanted to equate grain size with a particular thyroid formula, since I think different brands may have different formulas? I think toxinless.com reviewed the brands, and Thyroid-S may have been one that didn't have silica in it (which Peat avoids).