The only way to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores is to take out the thyroid gland;

[Robert5493]

I have no idea who Anthony Chaffee is, but the video below appeared in my YouTube feed last night. I was shocked to find out that the rancher he’s interviewing is in her early 80s:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnWdsEzx8F0

82,
learning spanish and learning to sail
while building a bluewater sailboat
to sail to Colombia to start another farm.
All while working a full time ranch in Canada.
And no signs of slowing down, rather the opposite.
Incredible.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks so much for sharing the video. I just finished listening and it was excellent. I hope to be doing that well in my 80’s.

You’re welcome. :) I hope to be doing that well in my 80s too. I was thinking of @akgrrrl, while listening to Maggie talk about her life.

82,
learning spanish and learning to sail
while building a bluewater sailboat
to sail to Colombia to start another farm.
All while working a full time ranch in Canada.
And no signs of slowing down, rather the opposite.
Incredible.

Incredible indeed!

 

[Ainaga]

Such a situation has nothing to do with what's optimal physiologically. I've never said anything to the effect that someone in such a situation shouldn't adapt correspondingly, but such a person should expect to achieve a much lower level of absolute health than otherwise, much like we see in Inuits, who historically have been forced into a similar position for environmental reasons.



See above for parts of my address to this, but I would also dispute the notion that a "carnivore diet" can really be called a low-residue diet due to how many of the residues from meat and other animal products can get dispersed throughout the body without ending up in such a bag (e.g. accumulations of excess heme-iron, accumulations of Neu5Gc bound to cell glycans, fats and toxic fat metabolites causing insulin resistance, and so on). In that case it's certainly to some extent a practical concern, but I would definitely not personally sacrifice my own health just to avoid dealing with the fiber; fiber, more specfically the soluble fiber found in fresh and ripe fruits and in well-cooked vegetables (or very tender raw ones), is extremely important to maintain good digestive health.



The problem with that reasoning is the countless cases I'm aware of of people believing themselves to be just that with varying degrees of confidence, but then finding out they're not at all once they've restored proper digestive health. The biochemistry of how physiologically suitable foods react with a body that's been subject to much less suitable foods for a long time can be extreme unpredictable, hence my mention earlier of how people should certainly make sure to make such changes over time, but still make sure to make them in the right direction.



I addressed this multiple times previously in this thread; this even applies to myself, as I would e.g. eat a far larger amount of incredible Chaunsa mangoes from Pakistan if it were more affordable, and even buy luxurious imports of other tropical fruits in as ripe and fresh a state as possible. This also applies to the aforementioned Inuits, and also still to many people living at extreme latitudes who don't have good access to even e.g. cheap dates or bananas. Under such circumstances, you obviously can't expect someone to do anything other than make do with what they can, but there's a big difference between this and continuing to do it even when more physiologically foods become so available that they're even more affordable; and that's not even considering long-term environmental impacts, as we've seen worldwide, very much in contrast to notions of "regenerative agriculture", where e.g. grazing tends to decimate soil quality over time, something which can cause problems for entire populations.



Same as above addresses, I'm obviously not claiming that someone in that situation should kill themselves by continuing to ingest fructose, and I've never said anything to that effect; note also that this is an extremely rare recessive genetic disorder, and not representative at all for the human genome.



Feel free to continue; the examples so far have been very poor in making any good point against anything I'm saying at all. In situations where access is the problem, this is something I've already accounted for, and situations where actual physiology is the problem are so rare that it's still reasonable for me to assume what I'm assuming. If e.g. the person you mention above were to discuss with me how they got certain health problems from eating fruit, I would reasonably assume other causes first, because jumping directly to a rare genetic disease is not reasonable.



Nothing I've said has contradicted this very general and broad statement.



First of all, that's not exactly what I've said. Such a diet would perhaps be possible with abundant access to fresh and ripe tropical fruits and young and tender leaves if both are semi-wild, but even then you'd likely want some other types of vegetable matter for optimal health; what I'm advocating is to consume a wide variety of non-fruit vegetable matter far beyond just those types, in order to better emulate the variety of food we've been eating for tens of millions of years, and also to cook a lot of that vegetable matter to emulate the bioavailability of nutrients typically found in more energetically favorable environments like the tropics (the less energy is available to plants, the more they tend to defend their component parts with antinutritious substances).

Secondly, however, my actual point is that I do indeed believe, based on both experience and scientific evidence, that humans are all so physiologically similar that we would indeed do best health-wise on a diet consisting exclusively of fresh and ripe fruit and easily digestible vegetables, barring extreme abnormalities like the ones you list above (which again are not reasonable to account for when making the general case, even though they do exist). I don't think that's a naive statement whatsoever.



Well, I've never personally used the term "fruitarian" throughout this entire thread (apart from just now, in quotation marks), because to me that denotes an ideological stance, much like "vegan", and has very little to do with human physiology in and of itself. My experience is that many people who identify themselves as such tend to have certain ideological beliefs, and often some very strange dietary dogmas and eating disorders, such as e.g. an obsession with exclusively eating raw foods, or exclusively eating fruits and eschewing all non-fruit vegetable foods. All of that being said, I strongly doubt that "essentially all" such people wither away and look sickly, to my knowledge this equally extreme opposite position is typically inspired by borderline propaganda efforts to cherry-pick the most blatant cases of eating disorders and misconstruing the actual causes. At least I'm aware of a lot of people who identify themselves as such, but who have much more reasonable attitudes to food, and who don't wither away or look sickly at all, but thrive and look very well.



The way this is phrased makes it sound like both are equally reasonable on average, which is rather ridiculous given everything we know about what foods lead to the longest and healthiest lives. The number of people on the planet for whom a "carnivore diet" would actually be optimal given their circumstances is probably a minuscule fraction, and mostly restricted to people who have literally zero access to any plant-based foods whatsoever; and for those people, that relatively "optimal" health would be extremely low in absolute terms.

In any case, I freely welcome discussion and statements, so cheers to you as well; there's nothing to shy away from here.

I suppose that you consider longevity a marker of health, although you also did mention healthy aging. How long does the evidence from studies that you have come across say our mostly fruit-eating ancestors lived? From what I've seen, the longest-living populations on Earth are omnivorous, and so are most (with perhaps some exception I suppose) centenarians. How long do you reckon a person following what you deem the ideal way would live?

I have another question. I have heard this argument from you, and from others who otherwise disagree with you as to what our ancestors ate, that our diets should be like that of our remote human ancestors, the more alike the better. The claim is always that we haven't had enough time to adapt to changes we as a species have had to undergo either by necessity or caprice. How is this claim made with such confidence? How do you know how much time a species needs to adapt? It's not like the more time that goes by, the more a species adapts; meaning a species could make an adaptation in 1000 years that it wasn't previously able to do in 10,000. Pressure also comes into the equation.

 

[akgrrrl]

You’re welcome. :) I hope to be doing that well in my 80s too. I was thinking of @akgrrrl, while listening to Maggie talk about her life.



Incredible indeed!

Hah! Thanks for thinking of me in that light----only recently have I discerned several points regarding this energetic phenomena, made more clear by the younger generation's obsession with their sexual equipment and performance, in tandem with the youngest "adults" appalling ignorance.
I used to think that I outlived all my cousins by decades because "lifestyle". I also thought I avoided the cancers of lung, brain, stomach, bowel and skin as they, for same.
Now I understand Lily Tomlin's old quote in a much different way
"I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize I should have been more specific".
Its WHICH attitude do you carry around?
WHICH milk do you drink?
WHICH clothing, bedding, poducts next to your skin?
WHICH environment do you choose?
WHICH people's company do you choose?
WHICH water do you bathe in, drink, wash your clothes in?
WHICH profession, or activity or issue do you support by your actions every day?
And most importantly, WHICH foods without pesticides, hormones, genetic alterations, irradiation or other abominations for corporate gluttony, do you consume.
All of these things require study and determination. Thank goodness there are those who have come before us to streamline that process, for, once you have a template it is GAME ON. Then, the wisdom you accumulate from facing life challenges settles in, and you start to glide--gracefully with gratitude, gently showing others the way, just as Dr. Peat showed us.

 

[TheSir]

Ray Peat seemed more and more to see the need for animal products as a concession to life in a sub-optimal environment, which for him meant not just culture, or nuclear radiation, but fundamental ecological factors like oxygen pressure and temperature. For instance the increased muscular mitochondrial density at altitude or at a higher atmospheric CO2 concentration would help to compensate for a skinnier, non-muscular frame. Either there was - or there will be - a world where this is possible without our spines collapsing.

Konstantin Buteyko had a similar view. According to him, protein and animal products are only needed by growing and sick people. At a sufficiently high CP one was said to be able to thrive on fruits & vegetables alone. I've noticed that I dont't find meat very appetizing when my CP is higher.

 

[cremes]

What an interesting title for this post. Unfortunately, the replies veered way off and never got back on track.

 

[Jennifer]

All of these things require study and determination. Thank goodness there are those who have come before us to streamline that process, for, once you have a template it is GAME ON. Then, the wisdom you accumulate from facing life challenges settles in, and you start to glide--gracefully with gratitude, gently showing others the way, just as Dr. Peat showed us.

Yes, thank goodness for those who came before us, but I think it also takes a certain kind of spirit and you have it. I was lucky enough to have a mum and grandmothers with that same determined, sprinkled with a little defiance, spirit. Regardless of the circumstances, you don’t hesitate to take the bull by the horns. If you want shelter, you build it. If you want food, you go catch and grow it. If you fall from two stories while installing a window and crush your body, you say to hell with your doctors and the limitations they set for you and you enter a fitness competition. Haha! I just think you’re a really kick*ss woman, excuse my language.

 

[akgrrrl]

What an interesting title for this post. Unfortunately, the replies veered way off and never got back on track.

Since you are new, it might help to know members exchange results of personal experimentation with compounds, products, lifestyle hacks, and so forth such that "veering" is rather commonplace. Eventually threads can reorient or not. But because we often know the path of said experimenter or that member's expertise, the topic is explored tangentially if studies do not appear to further the conversation.

 

[Vinny]

I should never have mentioned my spine collapsing because I knew what I was dealing with.

 

[Jennifer]

When I joined the frugivore community, I was made aware that eating our species specific diet makes many think that they have developed psychic abilities so that they know a person did something wrong without actually knowing what they did. Sadly, balding, shrinking, loss of gross motor skills and a dependency on adult diapers weren’t in the brochure.

Come, join the frugivore movement of unlimited fruit, greens, tubers and enough supplements to make even the elderly do a double take and you too can devolve into this:

 

[Vinny]

When I joined the frugivore community, I was made aware that eating our species specific diet makes many think that they have developed psychic abilities so that they know a person did something wrong without actually knowing what they did. Sadly, balding, shrinking, loss of gross motor skills and a dependency on adult diapers weren’t in the brochure.

Come, join the frugivore movement of unlimited fruit, greens, tubers and enough supplements to make even the elderly do a double take and you too can devolve into this:

View attachment 49440

I`m beyond glad you made through so much, Jennifer.

 

[Jennifer]

I`m beyond glad you made through so much, Jennifer.

Thank you, Vinny.

 

[Robert5493]

When I joined the frugivore community, I was made aware that eating our species specific diet makes many think that they have developed psychic abilities so that they know a person did something wrong without actually knowing what they did. Sadly, balding, shrinking, loss of gross motor skills and a dependency on adult diapers weren’t in the brochure.

Come, join the frugivore movement of unlimited fruit, greens, tubers and enough supplements to make even the elderly do a double take and you too can devolve into this:
]

I'm pretty sure the brochure does say the part about hair and teeth falling out as part of the detox process and that it's a sign you're on the right track. Once your irises change color, you are about to gain superpowers and ascend.

In addition to the claim "you didn't do it right" I was half expecting to hear that the collapse of your spine was an expected detox symptom too.

Very happy to hear of your recovery and that you have retained such patience, humour and grace despite what you've been through.

I'm glad you spoke up.
More people need to. Too many continue down a path of ever worsening failing health inspite of the consequences due to such specious ideological rationalization and gaslighting.

 

[Alpha]

Humans are one of the few animals species that express ApoB-100, absence of it in animal or human model show inability to acquire atherosclerosis, hypercholesterolima, or cardiovascular disease.

 

[Jennifer]

I'm pretty sure the brochure does say the part about hair and teeth falling out as part of the detox process and that it's a sign you're on the right track. Once your irises change color, you are about to gain superpowers and ascend.

In addition to the claim "you didn't do it right" I was half expecting to hear that the collapse of your spine was an expected detox symptom too.

Very happy to hear of your recovery and that you have retained such patience, humour and grace despite what you've been through.

I'm glad you spoke up.
More people need to. Too many continue down a path of ever worsening failing health inspite of the consequences due to such specious ideological rationalization and gaslighting.

Thank you, Robert. :) I really appreciate that.

Balding and tooth loss are under the Detox & Purification section in the handbook, but I thought balding was in reference to the head, not the entire body. There is no mention of a collapsed spine, but I suppose it would also fall under Detox & Purification. I experienced pigmentation loss but sadly, no superpowers and ascension. My brown eyes indicate I’m still full of you know what.

 

[James IV]

Well, no offense, but I don't think "you're too stupid" is exactly very accounting of people's sensitivities. As promised, it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings, but if that's all you can resort to instead of actually addressing anything of substance, you've basically given up completely.

From what it's worth, from my perspective it's clearly you who seems to lack the intelligence necessary (I'm rubber, you're glue) to understand what I'm saying.



This is technically true, but you don't seem to understand the underlying neurophysiological details of why that is the case. It's not that human brains are actually that special compared to other great apes, it's primarily that we have more undifferentiated neural matter, the cortex, which represents ~80% of the entire brain mass, including the neocortex, which represents the majority of this at ~75% of brain mass. This combined with the unprecedented explosion in brain size seen starting long before anatomically modern humans exited the rainforest indicates an epigenetic explanation for this proliferation of undifferentiated neural tissue. And what's necessary to maintain such large brains is primarily abundant sugar and antioxidative secondary active metabolites, not any large amount of protein at all.

Saying that comparing their diet to ours is "ineffectual from a physiological standpoint" is nonsensical, because the physiological similarities between us are extremely significant.



This is a straw man, because that's not what I'm arguing at all. That being said, it's certainly not impossible, as you seem to think it is.



This isn't true at all, and there are plenty of indigenous populations that hardly consume any animal matter at all.

It's also largely irrelevant when it comes to everything we now know about human physiology; hypothetically speaking, if e.g. animal matter has adverse consequences for great ape health, a chimpanzee or indigenous person might not care about this due to a lack of knowledge, but us with more knowledge could rationally avoid it instead and opt for more physiologically suitable foods.



I strongly doubt that's true. Most of them do hunt to various extents, but it being necessary is a contentious topic. In chimpanzees it's been established that hunting is largely a social activity that serves to establish dominance hierarchies, and there's no reason to suspect similar explanations can't be possible for humans. As Jared Diamond humorously points out in The Great Leap Forward, such foods accounts for a tiny minority of what's eaten compared to what's gathered:





Well, clearly you are trying to convince people that what you're saying is true, that's the point of taking part in such a discussion. However, as noted so far, I don't think what you're saying is true at all, and I think you're repeating a lot of common talking points that are either false or only very marginally rooted in fact. From my perspective, it's your attempted logic which is ignoring the vast majority of the actual scientific evidence, and lacking in critical thinking.

Post your age and a photo with your shirt off.