Solving My Sleep Troubles

[treelady]

l-theanine, 200mg on retiring

 

[Zachs]

Yes, paleo+crossfit is a thyroid killer.

You can try yogurt instead of cottage cheese if you dont like it, some people report feeling better on yogurt than milk. And oysters should probably only be eaten twice a week or so. Mainly protein should come from dairy and gelatinous sources.

Sounds like you arent worried about gaining/losing weight since you were slamming down 8000 cals a day for awhile (bravo), so your carb intake should jus reflect hunger unless your hypo is making you not hungry, than at least 500g a day of sugar, mostly from dairy, fruit and juice if you can, although fruit can be cooling and exacerbate the problem when first starting out so no melons or other really watery fruits. Stick to tropicals and bananas and OJ. Supplementing with refined sugar throughout the day and especially before bed is also a good idea to get added calories without the water content. Sugar things to taste, same with salt. Starch is personal preference. If you feel better eating starch then make 1-2 meals starch based. Try only sweet starchs like plantains, sweet potatoes, squash and pumpkin and also rice at first because potatoes, grains and other starchs can irritate the gut and inflammation = stress = wake up. Potatoes are a nightshade also so if you choose to eat them, go for a red or russet variety, never pick soft ones or sprouted and always peel and cook thoroughly.

Question, are you clinical hypo or did you aelf induce hypo with your low carb diet and CF? What type of thyroid meds are you on and is a doctor presribing the dose?

 

[SQu]

About protein - my experience is raising it with gelatin is lowering inflammation and helping me sleep better. And my sleep has been terrible - terrible! For years.

 

[firebreather]

I started paleo in 09 but then in 2013 I went really low carb, high fat to try and fix my coated tongue that sprung up.

I have no doubt that the low carb thing destroyed my sleep.

I started eating more carbs about 6 months ago I guess.

All that time from 2009 I had some pretty outrageous sugar binges.

I've been taking Nature-Throid dessicated thyroid for a little over a year now, prescribed by my doc. I take 2 grains (130mg) but yesterday I added an extra 1 grain in the afternoon to see if that helped things.

I also have low cortisol from morning until night. My doc put me on Hydrocortisone but that did nothing for me so I'm weening off.

About the Jello, I will try it tonight, do you have any suggestions on the amounts of the ingredients?

Also, I've gained 20 pounds in the first two weeks of eating a lot more. I've held steady the last week around 210 pounds though.

Why are my stress levels high? Good question, most likely because of my job. I'm a firefighter and sometimes have to get up for a call in the middle of the night.

When I was at my worst I was getting up 3 and 4 times per night to run calls. I'm at a slower station now and don't get up nearly as much but it seems like my body did that for so long that it learned that and it's really hard to un-learn it.

Fortunately I'm off work right now with a broken foot.

Reading used to put me out like a light but not anymore, but I still do it.

I haven't done any exercise in a while so that's probably not helping with the stress but even when I was doing it a few times per week it didn't make a huge difference.

Lindsay, I am not a diabetic.

I tried the on last night when I woke up at 2:45, I fell back asleep in about 5 min but unfortunately as usual I woke up briefly several times after, no need to pee though after 2:45 but that's normal

Just checking on the diabetes thing.

How long did you say you were on the Paleo diet? And how long have you been taking thyroid (and what brand)? That's another thing I forgot - thyroid can sometimes make people really sensitive to adrenaline when they first start taking it. Lots of people report sleep issues taking Cynoplus. Getting the extra sugar helps with this. I would suggest trying something really weird, like making yourself a big cup of warm jello before bed. Either with milk, honey and gelatin, or juice, sugar and gelatin.

You will likely keep waking until you are storing the sugar you need. And also, what are your stress levels like? High stress makes it harder to store glycogen. You could try things like meditating or praying or doing yoga before bed. Or reading. I can never get through a book because reading puts me right to sleep. Also, listening to soothing music really helps.

 

[firebreather]

I actually love cottage cheese so that shouldn't be a problem.

I actually gained about 20 pounds when I was eating like that which put me around 210 pounds and that's what I'm at now. My thoughts were that if it helped me fix my issues then so be it.

The thing is that if I eat to hunger I'm still cold and would be around 2500 to 3000 cals per day. Even when I was eating a ton I didn't get my temp above 98.2 at any time in the day but I was a little warmer eating like that. Unless I'm slaming a lot of junk it's difficult to eat much more than that but I can do it if I know what would be helpful as long as I can do it with sugar and fruit and starches.

I think the hypo is self induced although I've had cold hands and feet at different times for years and years, but I'm NOT hashimotos, however I know the low carb and other things made it worse.

I'm Nature-Throid prescribed by my doc. I take 2 grains per day (130mg) but I'm experimenting with more as my thyroid levels are in range but could be more optimal.

So just to be clear on protein, you are recommending roughly 100g per day from dairy, gelatinous meats and a couple eggs??

Yes, paleo+crossfit is a thyroid killer.

You can try yogurt instead of cottage cheese if you dont like it, some people report feeling better on yogurt than milk. And oysters should probably only be eaten twice a week or so. Mainly protein should come from dairy and gelatinous sources.

Sounds like you arent worried about gaining/losing weight since you were slamming down 8000 cals a day for awhile (bravo), so your carb intake should jus reflect hunger unless your hypo is making you not hungry, than at least 500g a day of sugar, mostly from dairy, fruit and juice if you can, although fruit can be cooling and exacerbate the problem when first starting out so no melons or other really watery fruits. Stick to tropicals and bananas and OJ. Supplementing with refined sugar throughout the day and especially before bed is also a good idea to get added calories without the water content. Sugar things to taste, same with salt. Starch is personal preference. If you feel better eating starch then make 1-2 meals starch based. Try only sweet starchs like plantains, sweet potatoes, squash and pumpkin and also rice at first because potatoes, grains and other starchs can irritate the gut and inflammation = stress = wake up. Potatoes are a nightshade also so if you choose to eat them, go for a red or russet variety, never pick soft ones or sprouted and always peel and cook thoroughly.

Question, are you clinical hypo or did you aelf induce hypo with your low carb diet and CF? What type of thyroid meds are you on and is a doctor presribing the dose?

 

[Zachs]

I think 100-150g protein is optimal for an adult male who is not doing excessive exercise. And yea, 1-3 eggs a day, a piece of meat, some gelatin and the rest from dairy works pretty well. I dont eat meat but most dont seem to have a problem. How much fat do you eat? Fat can have a negative effect on inflammation, usually from endotoxin and also omega 6. If you are currently eating a lot, try limiting it as much as possible. Under 30g a day seems right for me on most days.

We should similar with our diet history. I also ended up on an almost carnivorous diet after 3+ years on paleo and that almost killed me. I actually lost a lot of fat recently, going from 213 to 168 doing what im reccomending above. Anyway, this may not help you sonce you are at a different stage in healing than me but going to sleep on an almost empty stomach always gives me the best sleep. I think when the digestive system is working hard and beig sluggish from hypo, it can be pretty stressful. Eating bigger in the morning and tapering off in the evening always makes me sleep better. Having something small, salty and sweet before bed should be enough to blunt stress hormones.

 

[firebreather]

I definitely eat way more than 30g of fat per day.

That seems pretty hard. 3 eggs and some butter is almost 30g right there.

Something sweet before bed makes it hard for me to fall asleep but I'm going to try Lindsay's jello suggestion tonight just to scratch it off.

Thanks so much for your input. Hopefully this is the beginning of improvement.

I think 100-150g protein is optimal for an adult male who is not doing excessive exercise. And yea, 1-3 eggs a day, a piece of meat, some gelatin and the rest from dairy works pretty well. I dont eat meat but most dont seem to have a problem. How much fat do you eat? Fat can have a negative effect on inflammation, usually from endotoxin and also omega 6. If you are currently eating a lot, try limiting it as much as possible. Under 30g a day seems right for me on most days.

We should similar with our diet history. I also ended up on an almost carnivorous diet after 3+ years on paleo and that almost killed me. I actually lost a lot of fat recently, going from 213 to 168 doing what im reccomending above. Anyway, this may not help you sonce you are at a different stage in healing than me but going to sleep on an almost empty stomach always gives me the best sleep. I think when the digestive system is working hard and beig sluggish from hypo, it can be pretty stressful. Eating bigger in the morning and tapering off in the evening always makes me sleep better. Having something small, salty and sweet before bed should be enough to blunt stress hormones.

 

[aquaman]

I
The thing about the OJ is that it sugar before bed makes it hard for me to fall asleep before bed, assume it would be the same in the middle of the night

Matt Stone's tip on having salt and sugar under the tongue at night really helps me with getting back to sleep when the adrenaline kicks in at 2am-4am.

 

[SQu]

This is very rough, you'll need to adjust : approx 600 ml boiling water - add a cup of sugar, boil, add some cut up fruit eg peaches plums apricots nectarines etc, boil till fruit soft but not mushy. Sprinkle approx. 3 heaped tablespoons gelatin onto a centimetre or so of cold water in heat proof dish and a few minutes later once it's jelled stir in the fruit and syrup. Put in fridge to set. Adjust gelatin for the consistency you like. You can use some fruit juice to replace some water. It's nice because like gummies it combines protein and sugar. It also gets fruit in.

 

[firebreather]

Thank u, that sounds good

This is very rough, you'll need to adjust : approx 600 ml boiling water - add a cup of sugar, boil, add some cut up fruit eg peaches plums apricots nectarines etc, boil till fruit soft but not mushy. Sprinkle approx. 3 heaped tablespoons gelatin onto a centimetre or so of cold water in heat proof dish and a few minutes later once it's jelled stir in the fruit and syrup. Put in fridge to set. Adjust gelatin for the consistency you like. You can use some fruit juice to replace some water. It's nice because like gummies it combines protein and sugar. It also gets fruit in.

 

[Zachs]

I dont have trouble keeping fat under 30g. Oh i forgot to mention though that i dont count coconut oil in that. So i cook in CO, not butter. I dont use other fat sources and i rarely eat cheese and no meats. So its pretty easy for me.

 

[firebreather]

Okay, that makes sense.

I'm starting today.

Not going to be easy downing all that fruit but it will be so worth it to get my sleep and hormones fixed.

i just pray I can stay with it.

Thanks for your input, really appreciate it.

I dont have trouble keeping fat under 30g. Oh i forgot to mention though that i dont count coconut oil in that. So i cook in CO, not butter. I dont use other fat sources and i rarely eat cheese and no meats. So its pretty easy for me.

 

[natedawggh]

Hi Firebreather:

Lot of good advice above, but also a lot of trees and no forest. Waking up to pee is a sign of excess estrogen. It causes the bladder to empty frequently even to pass a small amount. You'll have to do some research on getting your estrogen lowered. Also, yes, minerals help a great deal in this. You should definitely be taking Magnesium Chloride—the best magnesium supp. Sodium Chloride as well (sea salt), but you'll need to improve your thyroid for these changes to take effect.

You probably did have a better time on the Stone diet because that excess calories helped protect against stress, especially the stress of nighttime... but if your thyroid is working well you won't need so many calories, as thyroid makes calories—fat, sugar, and protein, go much farther and makes better use of them. But at night you can and should have a lot of calories, especially healthy carbs and minerals, and this will help keep thyroid up as long as possible during the night and help suppress the stress hormones.

 

[firebreather]

I've had my estrogen checked 4 times in the past year and every time it was at the bottom or below range.

Hi Firebreather:

Lot of good advice above, but also a lot of trees and no forest. Waking up to pee is a sign of excess estrogen. It causes the bladder to empty frequently even to pass a small amount. You'll have to do some research on getting your estrogen lowered. Also, yes, minerals help a great deal in this. You should definitely be taking Magnesium Chloride—the best magnesium supp. Sodium Chloride as well (sea salt), but you'll need to improve your thyroid for these changes to take effect.

You probably did have a better time on the Stone diet because that excess calories helped protect against stress, especially the stress of nighttime... but if your thyroid is working well you won't need so many calories, as thyroid makes calories—fat, sugar, and protein, go much farther and makes better use of them. But at night you can and should have a lot of calories, especially healthy carbs and minerals, and this will help keep thyroid up as long as possible during the night and help suppress the stress hormones.

 

[sweetpeat]

Hey firebreather,
You’ve gotten some great recommendations so far, but I haven’t seen anyone address your thyroid dosing. You said you take 2 grains NatureThroid. Can I assume you take it all at once in the morning? If so, then you would be getting 18mcg of T3 all at once since each grain of NatureThroid contains 9mcg. Ray Peat has said that the body produces only about 4mcg of T3 per hour, so taking anything over 4-5mcg at one time is unphysiological and the excess T3 is inactivated. Now, you’re also getting some T4 in the Naturethroid, but the liver has to convert this to T3 and it sounds like maybe your liver isn’t yet up to par due to glycogen issues. I have this same problem from years of carb and calorie restriction.

What I would suggest is splitting your thyroid doses so you get less T3 all at once. When I did this, I experienced significant (for me) temperature increases. I used to barely get above 97 on waking and struggled to break above 98 during the day. Now, I regularly wake at around 98 and seldom go below 98.6 during the day. If you split each grain in half, that would give you 4 doses of 4.5mcg T3 per dose, taking a dose maybe every 3 hours or so. Try that for a week or two. If there is no change, then you could try splitting them into 4ths and taking a dose every 2 hours or so. As you can see, there is a lot of trial and error, but I noticed that no one had suggested this yet. It worked for me. Maybe the idea could help you too.

 

[firebreather]

sweetpeat, this sounds like great advice, i'll give it a shot.

How do you take your thyroid?

I mean with or without food and do you chew it or just swallow it?

Thank you again for the insight

Hey firebreather,
You’ve gotten some great recommendations so far, but I haven’t seen anyone address your thyroid dosing. You said you take 2 grains NatureThroid. Can I assume you take it all at once in the morning? If so, then you would be getting 18mcg of T3 all at once since each grain of NatureThroid contains 9mcg. Ray Peat has said that the body produces only about 4mcg of T3 per hour, so taking anything over 4-5mcg at one time is unphysiological and the excess T3 is inactivated. Now, you’re also getting some T4 in the Naturethroid, but the liver has to convert this to T3 and it sounds like maybe your liver isn’t yet up to par due to glycogen issues. I have this same problem from years of carb and calorie restriction.

What I would suggest is splitting your thyroid doses so you get less T3 all at once. When I did this, I experienced significant (for me) temperature increases. I used to barely get above 97 on waking and struggled to break above 98 during the day. Now, I regularly wake at around 98 and seldom go below 98.6 during the day. If you split each grain in half, that would give you 4 doses of 4.5mcg T3 per dose, taking a dose maybe every 3 hours or so. Try that for a week or two. If there is no change, then you could try splitting them into 4ths and taking a dose every 2 hours or so. As you can see, there is a lot of trial and error, but I noticed that no one had suggested this yet. It worked for me. Maybe the idea could help you too.

 

[sweetpeat]

sweetpeat, this sounds like great advice, i'll give it a shot.

How do you take your thyroid?

I mean with or without food and do you chew it or just swallow it?

Thank you again for the insight

I make sure to have energy on board before I take it, so with food. I think the T3 works better with nutrients in place. I get a headache if I take it without enough food. Sometimes I swallow, sometimes I chew. Since the pills are being split, they get kinda crumbly anyway so I don't think it matters.

My doctor also had me taking my dose all at once. They seem to be prescribing desiccated thyroid the same way they do synthroid (which contains only T4). You can take all your T4 at once, but anything with T3 probably works better in smaller, more frequent doses. At least that's my experience.

 

[firebreather]

Excellent, thank u

sweetpeat, this sounds like great advice, i'll give it a shot.

How do you take your thyroid?

I mean with or without food and do you chew it or just swallow it?

Thank you again for the insight

I make sure to have energy on board before I take it, so with food. I think the T3 works better with nutrients in place. I get a headache if I take it without enough food. Sometimes I swallow, sometimes I chew. Since the pills are being split, they get kinda crumbly anyway so I don't think it matters.

My doctor also had me taking my dose all at once. They seem to be prescribing desiccated thyroid the same way they do synthroid (which contains only T4). You can take all your T4 at once, but anything with T3 probably works better in smaller, more frequent doses. At least that's my experience.

 

[firebreather]

Sweetpeat, do you have any suggestions on improving my liver function or will that come as I improve my metabolism?

I took a couple different supplements a while back for my liver (about 2 months total) but I didn't notice any difference with my liver so I stopped.

I don't know if it makes a difference or not but when I wake up I never feel hungry.

 

[sweetpeat]

My guess is that it will improve with an improving metabolism. Ray Peat seems to think T3 is a key player. Here is a quote from him: “T3 is needed for the storage of glycogen and the efficient use of glucose, and glucose is needed to form T3.”

So it would seem that without adequate T3, the other variables maybe aren’t as effective? This is what I’ve read anyway, that in a hypothyroid state the body can’t utilize the nutrients from food and/or supplements as well. So, yeah, if you can optimize your thyroid levels, either through diet or the Naturethroid, and raise your metabolism, liver function as well as other systems of the body would improve. That’s the theory anyway. I’m still trying to work out these things myself.