‘Safe’ Levels Of Sugar Harmful To Mice

[Thomas]

Hi guys,
here in Sweden its all over the news that a new study shows clearly that sugar is very bad for humans even in small doses.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13081 ... s3245.html

I am on RP diet and eat a lot of sugar. Please share your thoughts with me.

yours
Thomas

 

[mandance]

It seems this study is mimicking high fructose corn syrup and not pure fructose which is where you would want to get most of your sugar from. Obviously high fructose corn syrup is harmful, but this study is one of many, focusing on the wrong issue. Sugar isn't a problem, its pufas and high fructose corn syrup that is. Sugar is the most abundant nutrient on the planet, and essential for all living things in one form or another. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[jaa]

The top comment over at r/science about this article outlines some of the flaws with this study:

"1) Used offspring of mice "captured by Potts in a bakery". Seriously!? Who the hell does that in 2013? This seriously impacts the ability to replicate such a study. Also note, this same author has a publication demonstrating how important genetics can be to competitive ability! Go figure...
2) Proportional hazards model used; see figure 1 here. Such models assume individuals are reasonably independent. The experimental setup, however, was intentionally designed to not maintain independence, i.e. it encouraged competition for food, territory, and mates, simultaneously both among and between treatment groups. Treatment effects would be irretrievably confounded with uncontrolled factors.
3) Even if we ignore 2) above, the significance of the survival effect on females was marginal at best: p=0.048. Such results would strongly suggest repetition of the experiment is necessary, however, that will not be possible. Instead, the authors call for a change in dietary guidelines based on unconfirmed results.
4) The obvious circumstantial evidence: American males seem to have no problems reproducing and there are no epidemics of dieing females."

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comment ... quivalent/

 

[Mittir]

There are thousands of studies showing adverse effects of sugar and HFCS.
Problem with HFCS is that it contains 4-5 times more calories than assumed.
One major criticism of these kind of studies is that they ignore the fact that
excess carbohydrate, especially sugar increases metabolism and thus increases
the need for additional vitamins and minerals. RP's articles on sugar explains
why these kind of studies are wrong. Another way to find support for sugar is to check
studies on fruit consumption. Almost all studies shows fruit consumption is beneficial to health.

 

[4peatssake]

People have told me that when they looked for articles on fructose in PubMed they couldn't find anything except articles about its bad effects. There are two reasons for that. PubMed, like the earlier Index Medicus, represents the material in the National Library of Medicine, and is a medical, rather than a scientific, database, and there is a large amount of important research that it ignores. And because of the authoritarian and conformist nature of the medical profession, when a researcher observes something that is contrary to majority opinion, the title of the publication is unlikely to focus on that. In too many articles in medical journals, the title and conclusions positively misrepresent the data reported in the article.

Sugar Issues

Bold and underline are mine.

 

[jaguar43]

Hi guys,
here in Sweden its all over the news that a new study shows clearly that sugar is very bad for humans even in small doses.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13081 ... s3245.html

I am on RP diet and eat a lot of sugar. Please share your thoughts with me.

yours
Thomas

Ray Peat thinks sugar amount is individual, if you crave it eat it. But don't over do. Hows sweden, pretty good.

 

[4peatssake]

Ray Peat thinks sugar amount is individual, if you crave it eat it. But don't over do.

Can you please show me where he says this?

The difficulty with the term "sugar" is that to some it means white table sugar and to others, like me, it does not mean that.

Sugar is critical to achieving and maintaining an optimal metabolic condition and protecting against stress, aging and degenerative disease.

Stress seems to be perceived as a need for sugar. In the absence of sucrose, satisfying this need with starch and fat is more likely to lead to obesity.
The glucocorticoid hormones inhibit the metabolism of sugar. Sugar is essential for brain development and maintenance. The effects of environmental stimulation and deprivation-stress can be detected in the thickness of the brain cortex in as little as 4 days in growing rats (Diamond, et al., 1976). These effects can persist through a lifetime, and are even passed on transgenerationally. Experimental evidence shows that polyunsaturated (omega-3) fats retard fetal brain development, and that sugar promotes it. These facts argue against some of the currently popular ideas of the evolution of the human brain based on ancestral diets of fish or meat, which only matters as far as those anthropological theories are used to argue against fruits and other sugars in the present diet.
Honey has been used therapeutically for thousands of years, and recently there has been some research documenting a variety of uses, including treatment of ulcers and colitis, and other inflammatory conditions. Obesity increases mediators of inflammation, including the C-reactive protein (CRP) and homocysteine. Honey, which contains free fructose and free glucose, lowers CRP and homocysteine, as well as triglycerides, glucose, and cholesterol, while it increased insulin more than sucrose did (Al-Waili, 2004). Hypoglycemia intensifies inflammatory reactions, and insulin can reduce inflammation if sugar is available. Obesity, like diabetes, seems to involve a cellular energy deficiency, resulting from the inability to metabolize sugar.
Sucrose (and sometimes honey) is increasingly being used to reduce pain in newborns, for minor things such as injections (Guala, et al., 2001; Okan, et al., 2007; Anand, et al., 2005; Schoen and Fischell, 1991). It's also effective in adults. It acts by influencing a variety of nerve systems, and also reduces stress. Insulin is probably involved in sugar analgesia, as it is in inflammation, since it promotes entry of endorphins into the brain (Witt, et al., 2000).
An extracellular phosphorylated fructose metabolite, diphosphoglycerate, has an essential regulatory effect in the blood; another fructose metabolite, fructose diphosphate, can reduce mast cell histamine release and protect against oxidative and hypoxic injury and endotoxic shock, and it reduces the expression of the inflammation mediators TNF-alpha, IL-6, nitric oxide synthase, and the activation of NF-kappaB, among other protective effects, and its therapeutic value is known, but its relation to dietary sugars hasn't been investigated.
A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions.
Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.

 

[andvanwyk]

Sugar causes increased death rates in rats

Was wondering what you guys think of the following study? As far as I can see the only difference between the two groups of rats is that the one had added sugar in the diet while the other group had corn starch instead? Personally I seem to do a helluva lot better using honey as my main source of energy rather than refined sugar. Hmmmm, there have been times in my life where I've used added refined sugar without any problems though so I wonder what's potting.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 111722.htm

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13081 ... s3245.html

 

[chris]

Re: Sugar causes increased death rates in rats

The second link says they were fed something like HCFS.

Had a quick scan of both links and couldn't see what else they ate. If it was low quality chow the sugar was most likely increasing metabolism and the food may not have been nutritious enough, which would cause issues.

 

[Mittir]

Re: Sugar causes increased death rates in rats

There is already an active thread on this same study.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2232

 

[Thomas]

HI guys,
what is a the good sugar RP is talking about. I thought its free for all. Am I wrong. I didnt think that he divided it into bad and good.
Like I learned before that honey is good and white table sugar is evil. I took tons of white table sugar because I believed that is what Peat is talking about.
Fructose too I thought is good and that it is not divided in good fructose and bad fructose.

I am a bit confused about the different sugars now.

thanks
Thomas

 

[jaa]

Hi Thomas,

My interpretation is HFCS < table sugar < honey (if not allergenic) < fruit.

I'm not sure if RP has said this, but some people on this board believe that sugar requires (depletes) nutrients to get processed. I am not sure if this is related to the idea of sugar raising ones metabolism and thus nutrient requirements, or if it's compounded. Personally, I feel best when the majority of the sugar I consume is from fruit. I also feel better with a little sugar / honey in my coffee than none at all.

 

[charlie]

Fruit sugars from orange juice is best, milk is another very good sugar, then table sugar can be supplemented as needed. Honey if it does not cause an allergy problem is also good.

A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions.
Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.

Source: Sugar Issues

 

[Mittir]

Fructose too I thought is good and that it is not divided in good fructose and bad fructose.

High fructose corn syrup supposed to have only glucose and fructose. But it was recently discovered
that HFCS contains other types of carbohydrate which are not glucose or fructose.
He never really recommended HFCS, because it used to have high mercury content.
If you can find pure fructose+glucose syrup that would be fine.
Pure table sugar is fine and it has an advantage of being allergen free unlike
many unripe fruits like banana, apple etc.
But we all have daily requirements of certain vitamins and minerals.
If you use a lot of pure sugar as carbohydrate source you have to make sure
you are getting all the required vitamin and minerals from rest of your food intake.
Honey has very little vitamins and minerals, but it has many chemical compounds
which are anti inflammatory ,antibiotic etc.
I use instant coffee as a source of potassium,magnesium and niacin , but it has very few calories.
You can use potato juice or potato soup for vitamin and minerals. Liver, seafood, OJ,Milk all are good
source of vitamins and minerals.

 

[jaguar43]

Ray Peat thinks sugar amount is individual, if you crave it eat it. But don't over do.

Can you please show me where he says this?

The difficulty with the term "sugar" is that to some it means white table sugar and to others, like me, it does not mean that.

Sugar is critical to achieving and maintaining an optimal metabolic condition and protecting against stress, aging and degenerative disease.

Stress seems to be perceived as a need for sugar. In the absence of sucrose, satisfying this need with starch and fat is more likely to lead to obesity.
The glucocorticoid hormones inhibit the metabolism of sugar. Sugar is essential for brain development and maintenance. The effects of environmental stimulation and deprivation-stress can be detected in the thickness of the brain cortex in as little as 4 days in growing rats (Diamond, et al., 1976). These effects can persist through a lifetime, and are even passed on transgenerationally. Experimental evidence shows that polyunsaturated (omega-3) fats retard fetal brain development, and that sugar promotes it. These facts argue against some of the currently popular ideas of the evolution of the human brain based on ancestral diets of fish or meat, which only matters as far as those anthropological theories are used to argue against fruits and other sugars in the present diet.
Honey has been used therapeutically for thousands of years, and recently there has been some research documenting a variety of uses, including treatment of ulcers and colitis, and other inflammatory conditions. Obesity increases mediators of inflammation, including the C-reactive protein (CRP) and homocysteine. Honey, which contains free fructose and free glucose, lowers CRP and homocysteine, as well as triglycerides, glucose, and cholesterol, while it increased insulin more than sucrose did (Al-Waili, 2004). Hypoglycemia intensifies inflammatory reactions, and insulin can reduce inflammation if sugar is available. Obesity, like diabetes, seems to involve a cellular energy deficiency, resulting from the inability to metabolize sugar.
Sucrose (and sometimes honey) is increasingly being used to reduce pain in newborns, for minor things such as injections (Guala, et al., 2001; Okan, et al., 2007; Anand, et al., 2005; Schoen and Fischell, 1991). It's also effective in adults. It acts by influencing a variety of nerve systems, and also reduces stress. Insulin is probably involved in sugar analgesia, as it is in inflammation, since it promotes entry of endorphins into the brain (Witt, et al., 2000).
An extracellular phosphorylated fructose metabolite, diphosphoglycerate, has an essential regulatory effect in the blood; another fructose metabolite, fructose diphosphate, can reduce mast cell histamine release and protect against oxidative and hypoxic injury and endotoxic shock, and it reduces the expression of the inflammation mediators TNF-alpha, IL-6, nitric oxide synthase, and the activation of NF-kappaB, among other protective effects, and its therapeutic value is known, but its relation to dietary sugars hasn't been investigated.
A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions.
Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.

Sorry, I ment table sugar. Did you still want me to show you the cite.

 

[sladerunner69]

post 26214 There are thousands of studies showing adverse effects of sugar and HFCS.
Problem with HFCS is that it contains 4-5 times more calories than assumed.
One major criticism of these kind of studies is that they ignore the fact that
excess carbohydrate, especially sugar increases metabolism and thus increases
the need for additional vitamins and minerals. RP's articles on sugar explains
why these kind of studies are wrong. Another way to find support for sugar is to check
studies on fruit consumption. Almost all studies shows fruit consumption is beneficial to health.

That's not true. The 4-5 calories thing comes from a flawed study that was never able to be replicated. The author even admitted the methods and instruments were fabricated for political purpose.

The only problem with HFCS is heavy metal toxicity as a result of the manufacturing.

 

[Mittir]

The author even admitted the methods and instruments were fabricated for political purpose.

IIRC they could not get response from the lead author and co-author responded saying that they could not replicate that
study. He blamed it on calibration problem not fabricating data for political purpose.

About an year ago, someone at Peatarian did a post on a study that refuted that 4-5 times calories in HFCS claim and
wrote to earlier authors for response.
I remember reading the study that showed the flaw in earlier claim and they also explained how one can
get those large number of calories from non sugar source in the measuring process, something to do with
adding some chemical that changes the structure of sugar. One does not need to fabricate the data.
It is possible the earlier guy did not know that those oligosaccharide molecules are result of measurement process.

I send that article and response to Ray Peat and got this response about 1 year ago.
RP's claim comes from Wahjudi's presentation in a conference, his paper was not published.

White's criticism doesn't seem to refer to the substance of the Wahjudi et al., article, since he referred to sugars rather than oligosaccharides. I would want to hear Wahjudi's own explanation. The department chairman's name is often attached to students' publications, when they weren't directly involved in the work.

if someone is curious can contact Wahjudi for explanation.

 

[XPlus]

Yeah, Peat is right again.
Where are all the Mittir fan boys cheer leading

Any compound is capable of causing trouble in the wrong amounts, including sugar.
Insufficient insulin production, excess estrogen, uncontrolled adrenaline and cortisol, serotonin, fat from the diet, sluggish liver and low thyroid have synergetic actions that challenge the utilization of sugar.
It's better to be careful with taking too much sugar at once. It increases the vitamin and mineral requirements - like Mittir said - and could also cause metabolic crashes.

Even if you manage to increase your capacity to handle sugar, it may become more difficult to sustain higher metabolic rates without consistently balancing out the sugar with some food.
I had a big crash 2 days ago, lots of low fat sugared milk, pulse over 100 most of the day - I ended up in bad pain at the end of the day because I didn't eat much.

 

[Mittir]

post 104246 Yeah, Peat is right again.

We do not know for sure if RP is right about the claim that HFCS has 4-5 times the
calories. The source RP used never got published, it was only a Meeting Abstract Supplement).
But, the study refuting this claim is not totally convincing either.
We will have to wait for more future studies conclusively showing the caloric and
oligosaccharide content of commercial HFCS.

 

[XPlus]

post 104264

post 104246 Yeah, Peat is right again.

We do not know for sure if RP is right about the claim that HFCS has 4-5 times the
calories. The source RP used never got published, it was only a presentation in a conference.
But, the study refuting this claim is not totally convincing either.
We will have to wait for more future studies conclusively showing the caloric and
oligosaccharide content of commercial HFCS.

I recently tried some HFCS Coke for few days and have had doubts about the claim that it has 4-5 times the
calories. I felt it was a little allergenic but couldn't feel there's 4-5 times the energy there.
But again, fructose has the same calories as sucrose by weight but I can barely feel it entering my system.

I hope Ray only brought up the study as something to think about.