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Rheumatoid Arthritis May Be Caused By The Same Bacteria That Causes Crohn's

haidut

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I posted a few studies on the now VERY likely causative link between a bacteria called MAP (Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis - Wikipedia) and the pathology of Crohn's. It seems that FDA is finally taking notice and there is a clinical trial for treating Crohn's with antibiotics. That trial is nearing completion of phase II, which suggests it is so far successful. The MAP is an opportunistic pathogen but it poses no risk for most people with a well-functioning immune system. However, its virulence is known to be promoted by estrogen and cortisol (read: stress & hypothyroidism) and inhibited by androgens. The link between rheumatoid arthritis (RA), low androgens, and high estrogen is by now well-established. If IBD and RA are infectious diseases then treating them chronically with cortisol or immunosuppressive drugs is nothing short of criminal, yet the article talks about it as if it is the weather forecast...
@aguilaroja @Wilfrid @Travis @Koveras

Is Rheumatoid Arthritis The Skeletal Manifestation Of A Mycobacterium Avium Subspecies Paratuberculosis (MAP) Infection? With Osteoarthritis Knee: A Case Control Study | 4040
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180130123743.htm
Study Finds Bacteria in Milk Linked to Rheumatoid Arthritis - UCF News - University of Central Florida Articles - Orlando, FL News
"...A team of UCF College of Medicine researchers has discovered a link between rheumatoid arthritis and Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis, known as MAP, a bacteria found in about half the cows in the United States. The bacteria can be spread to humans through the consumption of infected milk, beef and produce fertilized by cow manure. The UCF researchers are the first to report this connection between MAP and rheumatoid arthritis in a study published in the Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology journal this week. The study, funded in part by a $500,000 grant from the Florida Legislative, was a collaboration between Saleh Naser, UCF infectious disease specialist, Dr. Shazia Bég, rheumatologist at UCF’s physician practice, and Robert Sharp, a biomedical sciences doctoral candidate at the medical school.
Naser had previously discovered a connection between MAP and Crohn’s disease and is involved in the first ever phase III-FDA approved clinical trial to treat Crohn’s patients with antibiotics. Crohn’s and rheumatoid arthritis share the same genetic predispositions and both are often treated using the same types of immunosuppressive drugs. Those similarities led the team to investigate whether MAP could also be linked to rheumatoid arthritis."
 
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Regina

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I posted a few studies on the now VERY likely causative link between a bacteria called MAP and the pathology of Crohn's. It seems that FDA is finally taking notice and there is a clinical trial for treating Crohn's with antibiotics. That trial is nearing completion of phase II, which suggests it is so far successful. The MAP is an opportunistic pathogen but it poses no risk for most people with a well-functioning immune system. However, its virulence is known to be promoted by estrogen and cortisol (read: stress & hypothyroidism) and inhibited by androgens. The link between rheumatoid arthritis (RA), low androgens, and high estrogen is by now well-established. If IBD and RA are infectious diseases then treating them chronically with cortisol or immunosuppressive drugs is nothing short of criminal, yet the article talks about it as if it is the weather forecast...
@aguilaroja @Wilfrid @Travis @Koveras

Is Rheumatoid Arthritis The Skeletal Manifestation Of A Mycobacterium Avium Subspecies Paratuberculosis (MAP) Infection? With Osteoarthritis Knee: A Case Control Study | 4040
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180130123743.htm
Study Finds Bacteria in Milk Linked to Rheumatoid Arthritis - UCF News - University of Central Florida Articles - Orlando, FL News
"...A team of UCF College of Medicine researchers has discovered a link between rheumatoid arthritis and Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis, known as MAP, a bacteria found in about half the cows in the United States. The bacteria can be spread to humans through the consumption of infected milk, beef and produce fertilized by cow manure. The UCF researchers are the first to report this connection between MAP and rheumatoid arthritis in a study published in the Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology journal this week. The study, funded in part by a $500,000 grant from the Florida Legislative, was a collaboration between Saleh Naser, UCF infectious disease specialist, Dr. Shazia Bég, rheumatologist at UCF’s physician practice, and Robert Sharp, a biomedical sciences doctoral candidate at the medical school.
Naser had previously discovered a connection between MAP and Crohn’s disease and is involved in the first ever phase III-FDA approved clinical trial to treat Crohn’s patients with antibiotics. Crohn’s and rheumatoid arthritis share the same genetic predispositions and both are often treated using the same types of immunosuppressive drugs. Those similarities led the team to investigate whether MAP could also be linked to rheumatoid arthritis."
Thx for the links and insights.
When I look up which antibiotics are effective for mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis, I am coming up with rifabutin.
I was wondering if estrogen and cortisol are kept low, would the tetracyclines eradicate the bacteria?
 

haidut

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Thx for the links and insights.
When I look up which antibiotics are effective for mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis, I am coming up with rifabutin.
I was wondering if estrogen and cortisol are kept low, would the tetracyclines eradicate the bacteria?

I think the stronger antibiotics like gentamycin, vancomycin and minocycline should all be able to kill it or at least keep it under control. That FDA study on Crohn's mentioned in the article should list what antibiotics they used.
 

yerrag

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The MAP is an opportunistic pathogen but it poses no risk for most people with a well-functioning immune system.

I am slowly from an arthritic knee that has plagued me for 18 years.

Having read "Potassium Nutrition, In Heart Disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gout, Diabetes, and Metabolic Shock," by Weber, it proposed that adequate body stores of magnesium are needed in order for the body to absorb potassium, without which potassium would simply be excreted by the kidneys through urine. Without adequate potassium (and magnesium), there wouln't be adequate energy for the cell to expel mycobacteria from its tissues, which would cause the knee to experience arthritic symptoms.

I thought back to the time when I started having knee pain. I recalled I also started to have a problem with hypertension, as well as having an issues with scales on certain parts of my scalp. A few searches showed my scalp condition to be caused my mycobacterium as well. As for my high blood pressure, I was to learn from burtlancast that magnesium (and vitamin c) would help chelate lead from my tissues (in my case the kidneys). This all seemed to tie together, in my mind.

I started to take 4.8 grams of MgCl2, potassium through bananas, as well continue to take salt to taste and plenty of calcium from milk, egg shell, cooked leafy greens, and cheese. Also taking vitamin C to bowel tolerance levels, which is 6.75g daily.

I am on my third month of this protocol. I have noticed less and less knee pain, and my scalp condition has improved as well. My blood pressure has gone down, though much work still remain.

I think that my experience would eventually show that a "well-functioning system" would include having enough magnesium stores, as a prerequisite to having enough potassium stores in the body.
 

LeeLemonoil

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http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...d=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed&

The structural pathology of Achilles tendon (AT) ruptures resembles tendinopathy, but the causes remain unknown. Recently, a number of diseases were found to be attributed to bacterial infections, resulting in low-grade inflammation and progressive matrix disturbance. The authors speculate that spontaneous AT ruptures may also be influenced by the presence of bacteria.

Not quite the same, but a recent publication describing that some cases of AT are perhpaps associated with pathogenic habitation around the tendons.
It seems that quite a lot "orthopedic" pathologies have a microbial link - read the referenced studies also.
 

CLASH

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The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn's Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption

Not only mycobacterium paratuberculosis but also klebsiella pneumonia could be an etiologic factor. Its a prime candidate for causing ankylosing spondylitis as well as other issues such as chrons and IBS. Whats interesting is that starch directly feeds this microbe in the human GI tract. I have seen many people claim that there is no evidence for starch leading to endotoxemia but it seems that, similar to cattle with the subsequent acidosis (read: dysbiosis and endotoxemia) they develop after they are fed grain and starch, some humans also develop (as do monkeys in zoo’s) a dysbiosis and endotoxemia with starch and grain consumption. Also, paralelling cattle, the way to treat the issue in humans is with antibiotics. Something that I also find interesting is that in the starch studies where people lose weight, eat less and are less satisfied with thier food, It seems like those results or symptoms rather, may actually be a function of endotoxemia/ serotonin to some extent. I have noticed when I eat starch, i bloat, lose my appetite and lose weight... when I eat sucrose or invert sugar I dont bloat, and lose weight almost entirely from my abdominal region.. Just a hypothesis though.

I would venture to guess the knee issue and hypertension that @yerrag experienced were less an issue with mineral balance but more one of some degree of gut dysbiosis and endotoxemia that was corrected by removing starch and replacing it (minus the banana unless it was pretty ripe) with simple sugars and dairy. The vitamin C also probably helped by helping to repair the arteries. I think the body can maintain its own mineral balance just fine assuming there is nothing inhibiting its function. Also, just a hypothesis.
 

yerrag

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I would venture to guess the knee issue and hypertension that @yerrag experienced were less an issue with mineral balance but more one of some degree of gut dysbiosis and endotoxemia that was corrected by removing starch and replacing it (minus the banana unless it was pretty ripe) with simple sugars and dairy. The vitamin C also probably helped by helping to repair the arteries. I think the body can maintain its own mineral balance just fine assuming there is nothing inhibiting its function. Also, just a hypothesis.

My gut has been pretty good till as far back as I can remember. Nonetheless, I have stopped eating fruit and instead drink fruit that I juice, have for half a year been on white rice rather than brown rice, have been eating cooked bamboo shoots regularly, and take occasional raw carrot salad, and have used activated charcoal to reduce endotoxins. So, I cannot discount the possibility that a reduced endotoxin load may have helped. But considering that magnesium ties in to many issues, as I had mentioned above, it would be even more harder to discount its significance to my healing. I think the body can adapt easily to mineral deficiencies, but the body would just be finding an optimal way to accommodate such deficiencies, while becoming less optimal in its totality.
 

LUH 3417

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Waynish

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The Link between Ankylosing Spondylitis, Crohn's Disease, Klebsiella, and Starch Consumption

Not only mycobacterium paratuberculosis but also klebsiella pneumonia could be an etiologic factor. Its a prime candidate for causing ankylosing spondylitis as well as other issues such as chrons and IBS. Whats interesting is that starch directly feeds this microbe in the human GI tract. I have seen many people claim that there is no evidence for starch leading to endotoxemia but it seems that, similar to cattle with the subsequent acidosis (read: dysbiosis and endotoxemia) they develop after they are fed grain and starch, some humans also develop (as do monkeys in zoo’s) a dysbiosis and endotoxemia with starch and grain consumption. Also, paralelling cattle, the way to treat the issue in humans is with antibiotics. Something that I also find interesting is that in the starch studies where people lose weight, eat less and are less satisfied with thier food, It seems like those results or symptoms rather, may actually be a function of endotoxemia/ serotonin to some extent. I have noticed when I eat starch, i bloat, lose my appetite and lose weight... when I eat sucrose or invert sugar I dont bloat, and lose weight almost entirely from my abdominal region.. Just a hypothesis though.

I would venture to guess the knee issue and hypertension that @yerrag experienced were less an issue with mineral balance but more one of some degree of gut dysbiosis and endotoxemia that was corrected by removing starch and replacing it (minus the banana unless it was pretty ripe) with simple sugars and dairy. The vitamin C also probably helped by helping to repair the arteries. I think the body can maintain its own mineral balance just fine assuming there is nothing inhibiting its function. Also, just a hypothesis.

I bloat most on starch, but I lose the most weight if I eat a lot of sucrose rich foods (and fructose, second most).
 

Titanium

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Twenty years ago my doctor agreed to prescribe antibiotics (minocycline) for my RA. Before I had mixed results with Auromyose (Gold) and Sulfasalazine. Minocycline has been used in some trials at that time see Minocycline in active rheumatoid arthritis. A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. - PubMed - NCBI. Unfortunately the antibiotics did not have any effect on my RA but it killed my gut bacteria. Eventually I had to stop because of Candida overgrowth and black stains on my teeth. I used several probiotics from differend brands in order to restore my gut bacteria and because I thought it would be good for my health. None of the probiotics was beneficial for my RA. I did not try wormwood but Boron is quite useful against the Candida, bacterial overgrowth and RA. I think Ray Peat is right that you better avoid probiotics. Going peat as I did last year is highly beneficial for RA. PTH, TSH and all inflammation markers went down to normal values. That didn't happen with antibiotics, MTX or any of the other mentioned medicine.
 

tomisonbottom

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Twenty years ago my doctor agreed to prescribe antibiotics (minocycline) for my RA. Before I had mixed results with Auromyose (Gold) and Sulfasalazine. Minocycline has been used in some trials at that time see Minocycline in active rheumatoid arthritis. A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. - PubMed - NCBI. Unfortunately the antibiotics did not have any effect on my RA but it killed my gut bacteria. Eventually I had to stop because of Candida overgrowth and black stains on my teeth. I used several probiotics from differend brands in order to restore my gut bacteria and because I thought it would be good for my health. None of the probiotics was beneficial for my RA. I did not try wormwood but Boron is quite useful against the Candida, bacterial overgrowth and RA. I think Ray Peat is right that you better avoid probiotics. Going peat as I did last year is highly beneficial for RA. PTH, TSH and all inflammation markers went down to normal values. That didn't happen with antibiotics, MTX or any of the other mentioned medicine.

That's awesome.


How long till you saw improvement, and what does your diet look like?
 

Titanium

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It is a bit off topic, sorry for that. The improvement with Peat-like diet was noticeable within weeks. I think the increase in protein and dumping PUFA from my diet were the main contributors. Actually I noticed improvements in a lot of things. Improvement of joints, repeated endurance training no issue anymore, no longer cold, skin is smoother, heel cracks are gone, no longer having to pee repeatedly at night, better mood etc. After that it was no surprise for me that the bloodtest was better than ever.
My diet is not special, I try to eat at least 30 gram protein per meal and to avoid pufa. I do not skip meals. Example breakfast is whey shake with orange juice and coffee. Sometimes I take Greek yogurt with honey and granola. Possible lunch is some strawberry cottage cheese, eggs and cheese sandwich. For dinner I usually eat lot of vegetables, some potatoes and meat. I drink coffee and orange juice several times a day. I do not like milk, that is why I also supplement almost daily with Calcium (500mg), Magnesium (250mg) and Boron (3mg) . In autumn and winter I also take 5000 ie Vitamin D3, 200 ug K2, 200 ie vitamin E (mixed toco.).
 

Orius

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Dr. Borody in Australia has been treating MAP for decades under the assumption that Crohn's is an infectious disease. He has had a higher success rate than any other modern treatment. He uses clarithromycin, rifabutin (or rifampin), and clofazimine. He may add others. I have seen this therapy, called AMAT, replicated in North America with a lot of success. It's the impetus behind the Redhill Bio trial.

The pharmaceutical industry deemed the Redhill trial a failure because it showed a less than 40% success rate. What they didn't say is that this low rate is still higher than immunosuppressive methods. So there is a clear agenda at work.

The other big political problem is that MAP is found in 10% of all commercial dairy. It survives pasteurization. People with weakened bowel immunity can become infected. They know this because the cattle studies on Johne's disease (the cattle version of Crohn's) shows that the cattle who are the most susceptible to MAP are the ones with over all weakened immunity. They treat these cattle with tuberculosis medications, but these drugs are not readily accessible to humans through most doctors because it's not believed that bovine MAP can translocate to humans. Yet there is emerging research proving otherwise.

After years of studying this and doing self-experimentation, I can't endorse one-size-fits-all approaches. In the study groups I've been part of, some Crohn's patients in remission show much higher blood MAP populations than when their condition was in full flare. MAP is obviously one part of the picture, but so is the status of the over all immune system.

Complicating matters is that some people on AMAT actually do better with simultaneous immunosuppressive therapy like biologics. There is some evidence that MAP and other infectious agents that use the immune system proliferate get stunted in the presence of immune suppression. This benefit has been misinterpreted by modern medicine as a success rate owed to the disease being true auto-immune. But MAP lives within macrophages, and in some people the T cells lack the ability to infiltrate these macrophages to stop MAP. So if you add immune suppression, then the macrophages get scaled back and so does MAP.

I can't advise that antibiotics are a "good thing". From a cerebral, research-based, scientific perspective it's maybe true. In vivo and in clinical research, antibiotics can be disastrous. In the support groups I'm part of, people have tried all manner of therapies, many experimental. Antibiotics have been part of that. People like myself have been devastated by antibiotics. In fact, excessive antibiotic therapy may be what caused my IBD in the first place. However I developed IBD in my late 20's whereas others develop it earlier or later.

Every treatment approach I've tried that looked good on paper ended up sending me into auto-immune death spirals. The problem with the science is that it's too reductionist. The immune system is incredibly dynamic and shares facets with the nervous system, the gut flora, genetics, etc. We are unlikely going to be able to treat this with reductionist medicine because it involves multiple disciplines in a live system that is constantly changing. It's difficult, even for the most seasoned experts who think creatively.

I do have to introduce anti-microbials into my regimen periodically, but not pharmaceutical ones. Pharmaceutical ones are indiscriminate and should be saved as a last resort because they are like dropping nuclear bomb into the body. I have had far more success at bolstering my body itself through taking bio-identical hormones and repairing nutrient deficiencies.

It may be that many of these "pathogens" are commensal in healthy people and they only become a problem when the body starts to decline. We see this in nature where most mammalian species are infected with parasites. Adults in the species remain perfectly healthy until they eventually suffer a serious, life threatening injury or secondary illness. Then the parasites become virulent and kill them.

Modern medicine has utterly failed in distinguishing between passive and aggressive forms, within the same species. Even E. coli itself can become aggressively pathogenic when stressed. Most modern humans are suffering from one nutrient deficiency or another. Babies develop in mothers who themselves are depleted. We are dealing with society wide congenital nutrient deficiencies that start us off in life with one foot out the door. Then add environmental stressors of modern life to that, and no wonder we are seeing virulence in more organisms.
 
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yerrag

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It may be that many of these "pathogens" are commensal in healthy people and they only become a problem when the body starts to decline. We see this in nature where most mammalian species are infected with parasites. Adults in the species remain perfectly healthy until they eventually suffer a serious, life threatening injury or secondary illness. Then the parasites become virulent and kill them.
I'v began to think this way as well. Bacteria is opportunistic, and I'm not saying it because we're not aware of it, but because it needs to be stressed. It's everywhere in our body, though we think of it as a gut thing primarily. If our body has the energy to keep it under control, we're fine. When we weaken and our energy isn't there, bacteria quickly grows and overwhelm us. Bacteria becomes pathogenic when its growth isn't controlled, either by other bacteria or fungus. or by our own immune system. If there is a large load of pathogenic bacteria, it will require a lot of energy for the immune system to keep it in control. It will be a drain of resources such that resources to support a higher metabolism can be withheld by the body, as protecting itself is more of a priority than developing itself. Survival trumps becoming smarter or becoming more beautiful or more virile. More often, this bacterial load is overlooked. But when an external event causes the immune system to lose the energy it needs to defend the body, as it always had, suddenly infection arises and we're left to blame the surroundings to be germ-filled. Barbarians at the gates. The gates could very well be our blood vessels, and the barbarians hiding in biofilms.
 
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