Endotoxin (from Low-grade Infection) As A Cause Of Crohn's, UC, And Other IBD

[alywest]

Yup

 

[jitsmonkey]

I found charcoal to be constipating and I suffer from ibs-C so constipation is a no no.

But I did feel good and at ease from taking it. It got rid of a lot of angst and anxiety I didn't even know I had and I felt like a different person.

TMI warming: The bathroom movement the next day was difficult and painful and put me off it

you will find less issues with constipation if you take your AC with sugar and lots of liquid
ie. I will take a 50 gram dose with 12 ounces of OJ and 2-3 Tbs sugar before bed
and bm will be completely normal (other than its black ;-)

I will take a 10 gram dose with say a few ounces of water before bed and it will delay transit times for up to 36 hours

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

you will find less issues with constipation if you take your AC with sugar and lots of liquid
ie. I will take a 50 gram dose with 12 ounces of OJ and 2-3 Tbs sugar before bed
and bm will be completely normal (other than its black ;-)

I will take a 10 gram dose with say a few ounces of water before bed and it will delay transit times for up to 36 hours

I thought taking it with other things made it less functional. Do you get 5x the good effects from the 50g dose as u do the 10g dose

 

[alywest]

There was some thread where they were talking about taking a cup of it with a meal (in some study with rat's, so the human equivalent) and that increased lifespan by over 30%. I was with you where I thought it was bad to take with food. I think you still want to take it away from supplements, though.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I thought taking it with other things made it less functional. Do you get 5x the good effects from the 50g dose as u do the 10g dose

a) its relative. AC is 100,000x more effective with food than not taken at all (when you took it it was functional, now not taking it its not functional at all)
b) it does effect nutrient assimilation which is why you don't take it everyday all day but you do take it periodically away from your primary nutrition
c) all of the studies I've read about the effectiveness of AC involves dosages of 30-50g (I don't take 10g doses. I've done that experimentally. When I use AC I use 30-50g. Most often 50g)

 

[haidut]

how do you test for the pathogen by labs any labs out there?

If you are under endotoxin load chronically then HDL and RBC may be elevated or very close to the upper limit. Other than that, I guess a test showing very low alkaline phosphatase may also be indicative there is something going on in the GI tract.

 

[haidut]

Perhaps it's still an infection just no longer of bacterial origin that's sustaining disorder and inflammation

Well, endotoxin is indistinguishable from a flu "virus" in its effects and the only difference is that it does not replicate...as far as we know. The word virus means "toxin" after all and the original meaning of the word was applied strictly to non-infective poisons. So, endo-toxin is basically an endo-virus but should not be confused with the endogenous retroviruses even though it probably overlaps in effects with them a great deal. Estrogen promotes both activation of retroviruses and TLR4, and suppresses IAP so I guess the role of hormones (estrogen = harmful, progesterone = beneficial) is once again on full display even for this condition of originally infectious/bacterial origin.

 

[haidut]

I have been under the impression that antibiotics can clear endotoxin temporarily but only as long as the course of antibiotics lasts, then it tends to return.

That's the point of the study - these infections were fully resolved, most likely with antibiotic treatment. So, even after full cure the damage from endotoxin due to repeated infections lingers and causes issues. So, once IBD is established I would target IAP as that is what is apparently dysregulated from the repeated infections and needs to be corrected. I think taking antibiotics occasionally also won't hurt, just as a measure of keeping endotoxin load as low as possible as it lowers metabolism and thus probably negatively affects recovery.

 

[Peat Tong]

To the poster who used cyproheptadine for IBD.

Did you try Benadryl? -- Since it is readily available, compared to cyproheptadine.

 

[Pointless]

To the poster who used cyproheptadine for IBD.

Did you try Benadryl? -- Since it is readily available, compared to cyproheptadine.

Doesn't work

 

[biggirlkisss]

im having sucess with certizine at 30mg im going up to 60mg and maybe 100mg.

 

[Wilfrid]

I have Crohns, and the only thing that has helped me is Cyproheptadine. And I've tried prog, dhea, preg, charcoal, R5, carrots, mushrooms, phages, tetracycline, and many other things. A lot of these make it worse. Lysine can help temporarily but with side effects.

My metabolism is very resistant to increase. I can take 150 mcg t3 a day (do not try this) but I eventually get side effects. Anyways, lately I've normalized my body temp with high dose thiamine, about 1 g a day. This is detailed in another @haidut post that I wouldn't have known about without you so thank you.

Hi Pointless,

Your experience are very insightful.
In fact, it was already demonstrated, at least in rats, that intestinal alkaline phosphatase is involved in the process of active thiamine absorption.
Like @Amazoniac already pointed out, zinc and magnesium play an important role in IAP activity.
And things like taurine, B6, gamma-tocopherol, thyroid hormones ( both T4 and T3 ), K1 and/or K2 ( mk-4 ), folic acid and, to a lesser extent, manganese are also crucial to the enzyme activity.
Potatoes that are gently simmered in water for 3-4 hours ( I use an electric cooker ) are helpful too. I found properly boiled potatoes very protective as well as very effective against both intestinal inflammation, endotoxin removal and transit, in fact far more effective than both carrots and mushrooms. I remembered Ray speaking favorably about potatoes fiber. Canned bamboo shoots are more effective in my case. I have to give the credit to @Westside PUFAs to have introduced me to this important fact ( ie properly boiled starches ). In case of the potatoes the longer they are in contact with hot water the better it is. I eat those without any added fats but I do eat them with a protein rich in saturated fat ( usually cheese like camembert which is a very good source of protective nutrients like B1, B6 and folic acid...).
Excuse my long post, but as a former crohn's sufferer, I would like to share some infos with you.

 

[biggirlkisss]

shouldnt we be worried about potatoes for their starche producing endtoxin. I get bloated more with potatoes then meats. What does that say?

 

[Quality]

Not sure how many people on the forum know that Chron's disease, which is a type of an inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), has recently been reclassified in some countries as infectious of origin and not as an autoimmune disease. The causative pathogen of Chron's is thought to be a type of Mycobacterium
Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis - Wikipedia

The change in disease type designation has only occurred in some European and Asian countries, but the FDA is also considering adding the above bacteria as a "possible cause" to its official guidelines on Chron's. Anyways, the more important implication is that the studies which identified this bacteria as a possible cause of IBD hinted that it was not the bacteria per se which caused the damage to the colon wall but a byproduct associated with the bacteria. To my knowledge, none of the studies pointed the finger directly at endotoxin (LPS) but there aren't that many other byproducts of bacterial metabolism that can be the culprit.
This new study points the finger directly at endotoxin (LPS) and its activity through the TLR4 receptor as a causative factor in IBD. The more important finding is that this inflammatory damage occurs as a result of recurring infections that have been resolved completely. Thus, treating the infections with antibiotics would likely not have much benefit. However, the study found that it was the endotoxin-driven decrease in intestinal alkaline phosphatase (IAP) which was the direct cause of intestinal damage and that raising the levels of IAP was highly therapeutic. Injections with IAP are not very practical and to my knowledge are not approved anywhere as treatment. However, one of the most potent inducers of IAP is progesterone, which Peat has actually recommended in the past to a few people with IBD. In combination with charcoal, fiber or other dietary measures that reduce endotoxin load in the colon and the blood, progesterone could be a much safer option for treating IBD than the current immunosuppressive therapies, which have a very high risk of causing cancer or a deadly infection such as PML (Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy - Wikipedia).


Recurrent infection progressively disables host protection against intestinal inflammation
"...Pathogenic infection has been implicated in the chronic inflammation seen in inflammatory bowel diseases (IBDs) such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease. Yang et al. show that recurrent, low-level, and fully resolving Salmonella enterica Typhimurium (ST) infections can precipitate severe colonic inflammation in mice. ST-induced TLR4 activation resulted in increased neuraminidase 3 (Neu3) production and activity in the duodenum. This led to intestinal alkaline phosphatase (IAP) desialylation and degradation. IAP deficiency caused a marked increase in commensal bacteria-generated lipopolysaccharide-phosphate in the colon, provoking inflammation. Treatment with calf IAP or the antiviral drug zanamivir (which inhibits Neu3 activity) prevented this inflammatory cascade. This pathway may serve as an effective target for future human IBD therapies."

Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviate early weaning diarrhea in postnatal piglets.
Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviat... - PubMed - NCBI

In addition, Lf increased intestinal alkaline phosphatase activity (P<.05) and delayed the onset of food transitional diarrhea, reducing its frequency and duration (P<.05). The incidence of diarrhea in the high and low Lf groups was decreased 54% and 15%, respectively, compared with the control group (P=.035). In summary, these findings provide new evidence that dietary Lf supplementation up-regulated gene expression of BDNF and UCHL1, decreased the colon microbiota of E. coli, improved gut maturation and reduced early weaning diarrhea in piglets. The molecular basis underlying these findings suggests that Lf may enhance gut development and immune function by providing new insight into the gut-brain-microbe axis that has not been previously reported.

 

[alywest]

Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviate early weaning diarrhea in postnatal piglets.
Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviat... - PubMed - NCBI

In addition, Lf increased intestinal alkaline phosphatase activity (P<.05) and delayed the onset of food transitional diarrhea, reducing its frequency and duration (P<.05). The incidence of diarrhea in the high and low Lf groups was decreased 54% and 15%, respectively, compared with the control group (P=.035). In summary, these findings provide new evidence that dietary Lf supplementation up-regulated gene expression of BDNF and UCHL1, decreased the colon microbiota of E. coli, improved gut maturation and reduced early weaning diarrhea in piglets. The molecular basis underlying these findings suggests that Lf may enhance gut development and immune function by providing new insight into the gut-brain-microbe axis that has not been previously reported.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but would you mind explaining the difference between lactoferrin and iron please?

 

[mayweatherking]

i have read forum posts on people healing crohns by doing a fecal transplant.. although it's only regulated in australia i think as a treatment option

 

[haidut]

as a former crohn's sufferer

Congrats on recovery! What did you do to recover?

 

[haidut]

Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviate early weaning diarrhea in postnatal piglets.
Lactoferrin up-regulates intestinal gene expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factors BDNF, UCHL1 and alkaline phosphatase activity to alleviat... - PubMed - NCBI

In addition, Lf increased intestinal alkaline phosphatase activity (P<.05) and delayed the onset of food transitional diarrhea, reducing its frequency and duration (P<.05). The incidence of diarrhea in the high and low Lf groups was decreased 54% and 15%, respectively, compared with the control group (P=.035). In summary, these findings provide new evidence that dietary Lf supplementation up-regulated gene expression of BDNF and UCHL1, decreased the colon microbiota of E. coli, improved gut maturation and reduced early weaning diarrhea in piglets. The molecular basis underlying these findings suggests that Lf may enhance gut development and immune function by providing new insight into the gut-brain-microbe axis that has not been previously reported.

Thanks. So, basically drinking more milk?

 

[haidut]

i have read forum posts on people healing crohns by doing a fecal transplant.. although it's only regulated in australia i think as a treatment option

Are you sure it was for Chron's and not for C. Difficile infection? If it was indeed Chron's I think it is the most direct human evidence so far for it being of bacterial origin.

 

[mayweatherking]

Are you sure it was for Chron's and not for C. Difficile infection? If it was indeed Chron's I think it is the most direct human evidence so far for it being of bacterial origin.

Yes I thought it was pretty powerful.. I'm not sure if they had C Diff or not, here's one post on it, but for sure it was for Crohns treatment, but this isn't the one i remember reading, i'll have to do some digging to find it, it was this random home made blog, like a blogspot or something from one guy who talked about how he bought it off craigslist , got it shipped and tested, and made it himself, but i read it, it had to have been like 6 or 7 years ago : You are being redirected...

I was interested in getting one done, not for Crohns, but with my gut always being messed up, I thought it could be a way to "cure" PFS or at least help it.