The reason why aspirin causes intestinal discomfort, intestinal bleeding, tinnitus or kidney pain in some people?

[UG Krishnamurti]

According to this study they've made a bold claim that all IBD (Inflammatory bowel diseases) are caused by Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) "we additionally suggest that all of IBD may be caused by MAP [16, 22, 26]"
They also shown that all "antiinflammatories" and "immunosuppressants" used in treating Crohn's inhibit the growth of MAP - which is probably the reason for their success. "It is that multiple agents used in the treatment of IBD are in fact antiMAP antibiotics."

Beside showing that nicotine, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide enhances MAP [Maybe the reason to stop taking niacinamide as well if you notice discomfort] they've also shown that salicylic acid also enhances MAP.

METHODS​

"As experimental controls, we use two well-established antibiotics to inhibit mycobacterial growth. Isoniazid (INH; isonicotinylhydrazine (used to treat tuberculosis [39] and leprosy [40]) and para-amino salicylic acid (PAS) used to treat tuberculosis [41]. In 1940, Bernheim first reported the enhancement of growth of mycobacteria by salicylate [42]. Accordingly, our experimental control for enhancement of growth was salicylic acid."

Results​

"The initial experimental control to document that growth enhancement can be achieved is salicylic acid. To contrast with the enhancing effect of salicylic acid, our inhibitory control is PAS (Table 1; Fig. 1) [41]. PAS is probably bactericidal on M. avium and BCG. "

 

[ecstatichamster]

I am strongly of the opinion that stomach upset is caused by H Pylori infestation. If you don't have H Pylori infestation in your stomach, you don't get PAIN from aspirin in the stomach.

If you use enteric coated aspirin, which is really stupid, you will move the irriation to the duodenum and downstream and that is much worse.

Finally, they never tell people to use K2 MK4 when they take aspirin.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I am strongly of the opinion that stomach upset is caused by H Pylori infestation. If you don't have H Pylori infestation in your stomach, you don't get PAIN from aspirin in the stomach.

I have Crohn's disease and I have the same pain in my Ileum when I take aspirin as to when I have Crohn's flare up. Bleeding is mostly the side effect of my Crohn's and I also experience the same symptoms when I take aspirin but also when I take VIT D3 [And I don't have the time to share all the numerous studies in my notes to show why that is interesting in this case]

As far as the H Pylori thing it is usually in lower numbers in people with Crohn's and in some cases shown to even be protective.

"It has been suggested that H. pylori infection protects against the chronic inflammatory bowel diseases [IBD] Crohn’s disease [CD] and ulcerative colitis [UC]. Several case-control studies have shown a lower prevalence of H. pylori in patients with CD and UC compared with a healthy control group."

"The association between Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) infection and Crohn’s disease (CD) prevalence is still unclear. In this retrospective study, we collected 229 CD patients and 248 control subjects to investigate the risk factors for prevalence, extent and severity of CD. Through extensive analysis, we found significantly lower H. pylori infection rates in CD patients"

If you use enteric coated aspirin, which is really stupid, you will move the irriation to the duodenum and downstream and that is much worse.

I've tried taking it in so many different ways that I've lost count. Also low doses, like only 10mg. I've always have the same results. Pain in my intestines, kidneys, increase in tinnitus, dizziness/drowsiness and bleeding (if I continue using it for couple of days).

Finally, they never tell people to use K2 MK4 when they take aspirin.

It never helped me when using aspirin. In fact K2 MK4 when I used it for prolong period of time cause me some serious side effects.
"Cooked greens, milk, cheese, and eggs are very good sources of K. The solvents used to extract vitamin K, for example from natto, often cause problems. The present vitamin K culture is the creation of marketing campaigns, and is causing a lot of harm." - Ray Peat

 

[joaquin]

I just don't think aspirin is something to fool around with. Where in nature would one come this for daily use 365 days a year?

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I just don't think aspirin is something to fool around with. Where in nature would one come this for daily use 365 days a year?

I agree. Not because it's "unnatural" but because it seems to do lot of harm to certain people.

But if it is improving someone's symptoms without any side effects who am I to argue. All I know is that I've learned my lesson! :)

 

[Deborah888]

Interesting, I have ibd but aspirin hasn't seemed to do much of anything for me good or bad. As a side note, in case this helps, I suffer with spastic colitis after eating certain foods UNLESS I take 100mg of Niacin (yes with the fun flushing). Niacinamide is in my Jarrow B-Right b-complex but doesn't give me the same effect. Niacin the ONLY thing I've found that stops the horrid cramping immediately in its tracks. So who knows, I'm just going with what works for me right now.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Niacin the ONLY thing I've found that stops the horrid cramping immediately in its tracks.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

 

[yerrag]

I've read that some people are deficient in copper, and that as a result their stomach linings as a result are sensitive to aspirin. Aspirin made with copper into copper acetalsalicylate is said to be more acceptable.

 

[aliml]

Aspirin and its metabolites may cause tinnitus by reducing the expression of cellular water channels (Aquaporins).

Aquaporin-6 expression in the cochlear sensory epithelium is downregulated by salicylates - PubMed

We characterize the expression pattern of aquaporin-6 in the mouse inner ear by RT-PCR and immunohistochemistry. Our data show that in the inner ear aquaporin-6 is expressed, in both vestibular and acoustic sensory epithelia, by the supporting cells directly contacting hair cells. In particular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effect of aspirin treatment on aquaporin (AQP1, 2, 4, 6, 7) mRNA expression in mouse inner ear.

The expression of aquaporins is significantly reduced in the intestinal mucosa of patients with IBD.

Reduced expression of aquaporins in human intestinal mucosa in early stage inflammatory bowel disease - PubMed

AQPs 1 and 8 and the aquaglyceroporins AQPs 3 and 7 are the AQPs predominantly expressed in the lower intestinal tract of humans. Their expression is significantly reduced in patients with IBD, and they are differentially expressed in specific bowel segments in patients with Crohn's disease and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the side effects of aspirin may be due to the reduction of intracellular water and the change in cell PH.

 

[haidut]

According to this study they've made a bold claim that all IBD (Inflammatory bowel diseases) are caused by Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) "we additionally suggest that all of IBD may be caused by MAP [16, 22, 26]"
They also shown that all "antiinflammatories" and "immunosuppressants" used in treating Crohn's inhibit the growth of MAP - which is probably the reason for their success. "It is that multiple agents used in the treatment of IBD are in fact antiMAP antibiotics."

Beside showing that nicotine, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide enhances MAP [Maybe the reason to stop taking niacinamide as well if you notice discomfort] they've also shown that salicylic acid also enhances MAP.

METHODS​

"As experimental controls, we use two well-established antibiotics to inhibit mycobacterial growth. Isoniazid (INH; isonicotinylhydrazine (used to treat tuberculosis [39] and leprosy [40]) and para-amino salicylic acid (PAS) used to treat tuberculosis [41]. In 1940, Bernheim first reported the enhancement of growth of mycobacteria by salicylate [42]. Accordingly, our experimental control for enhancement of growth was salicylic acid."

Results​

"The initial experimental control to document that growth enhancement can be achieved is salicylic acid. To contrast with the enhancing effect of salicylic acid, our inhibitory control is PAS (Table 1; Fig. 1) [41]. PAS is probably bactericidal on M. avium and BCG. "

Do you mind sharing the sources claiming the niacinamide increases MAP growth? This bacteria is very similar to the one causing tuberculosis in humans and the oldest drug for treating TB (isoniazid) is a vit. B3 derivaive, and on top of that multiple studies have shown that niacinamide (as well as the other vit. B3 analogs) has anti-TB effects.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Aspirin and its metabolites may cause tinnitus by reducing the expression of cellular water channel

The expression of aquaporins is significantly reduced in the intestinal mucosa of patients with IBD.

Yeah I've seen similar studies too regarding tinnitus. Thanks for sharing this particular one. It definitely could explain certain mechanism.

But it seems that that AQPs reduction and water/solute homeostasis depends on inflammation. It seem that this imbalance is the consequence of inflammatory process. I always try to look at the root cause and in this case what causes the inflammation seem to precede AQPs and water/solute homeostasis (Maybe caused by particular overpopulation of Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis)
"The data present a link between gut inflammation and water/solute homeostasis, suggesting that AQPs may play a significant role in IBD pathophysiology."

Do you mind sharing the sources claiming the niacinamide increases MAP growth? This bacteria is very similar to the one causing tuberculosis in humans and the oldest drug for treating TB (isoniazid) is a vit. B3 derivative

Well the study I've shared pointed out that "nicotine, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide enhances MAP". They've stated in that study that some antibiotics that work for Mycobacterium avium strains doesn't necessarily work for Mycobacterium tuberculosis so maybe it's not good to compare these two mycobacterium species. They have stated that isoniazid is "structural analogs of nicotine", not mentioning anything about B3 (Niacin).

This study claim: "MAP is a member of the M. avium complex. These "atypical" mycobacteria are notoriously difficult to cure with the usual antimicrobial regimens that are successful in M. tuberculosis. For example, treatment of Crohn's disease patients with traditional anti-tuberculosis drugs (isoniazid, ethambutol, and ripampicin) evaluated during a five year study including two years of clinical trial treatment with and a three-year follow up period did not show consistent improvement [103].

So using anti TB antibiotics will not improve the condition if MAP are the culprit, since they are apparently very different.

It seems strange to me that you contribute benefits to the "niacinamide" and drawbacks to "something other than niacinamide". For example whenever you see benefits of nicotinamide you claim that the "Niacinamide will do the same". And in this case, when nicotinamide was proven to increase MAP you want further proof that niacinamide will do the same? Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get it.

If I remember correctly you've stated numerous times that nicotinamide is a metabolite of niacinamide and basically an expensive version of niacinamide and since the study pointed out that nicotinamide enhances MAP I didn't see why niacinamide wouldn't to the same:
"Nicotinamide is the amide of nicotinic acid. Both human MAP isolates are remarkably susceptible to nicotinamide growth enhancement. We conclude that the enhanced response of mycobacteria to nicotinic acid and nicotinamide is both species as well as strain dependent."

Examples of you equating niacinamide and nicotinamide :
"By combining the dirt cheap and widely available D-ribose and plain niacinamide you can get the same effects as ingesting nicotinamide riboside."
"For those interested specifically in treating the dry-eye condition, the treatment in this case was a 5% solution of the NAD+ precursors nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) or nicotinamide riboside (NR), which means plain niacinamide should be just as effective for raising NAD+"
"despite its own studies demonstrating that niacinamide / nicotinamide (NAM) is just as effective at raising NAD/NADH"
.."daily intake of nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), a metabolite of niacinamide and a direct precursor to NAD"

Much love and respect to you Georgi

 

[haidut]

Yeah I've seen similar studies too regarding tinnitus. Thanks for sharing this particular one. It definitely could explain certain mechanism.

But it seems that that AQPs reduction and water/solute homeostasis depends on inflammation. It seem that this imbalance is the consequence of inflammatory process. I always try to look at the root cause and in this case what causes the inflammation seem to precede AQPs and water/solute homeostasis (Maybe caused by particular overpopulation of Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis)
"The data present a link between gut inflammation and water/solute homeostasis, suggesting that AQPs may play a significant role in IBD pathophysiology."


Well the study I've shared pointed out that "nicotine, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide enhances MAP". They've stated in that study that some antibiotics that work for Mycobacterium avium strains doesn't necessarily work for Mycobacterium tuberculosis so maybe it's not good to compare these two mycobacterium species. They have stated that isoniazid is "structural analogs of nicotine", not mentioning anything about B3 (Niacin).

This study claim: "MAP is a member of the M. avium complex. These "atypical" mycobacteria are notoriously difficult to cure with the usual antimicrobial regimens that are successful in M. tuberculosis. For example, treatment of Crohn's disease patients with traditional anti-tuberculosis drugs (isoniazid, ethambutol, and ripampicin) evaluated during a five year study including two years of clinical trial treatment with and a three-year follow up period did not show consistent improvement [103].

So using anti TB antibiotics will not improve the condition if MAP are the culprit, since they are apparently very different.

It seems strange to me that you contribute benefits to the "niacinamide" and drawbacks to "something other than niacinamide". For example whenever you see benefits of nicotinamide you claim that the "Niacinamide will do the same". And in this case, when nicotinamide was proven to increase MAP you want further proof that niacinamide will do the same? Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get it.

If I remember correctly you've stated numerous times that nicotinamide is a metabolite of niacinamide and basically an expensive version of niacinamide and since the study pointed out that nicotinamide enhances MAP I didn't see why niacinamide wouldn't to the same:
"Nicotinamide is the amide of nicotinic acid. Both human MAP isolates are remarkably susceptible to nicotinamide growth enhancement. We conclude that the enhanced response of mycobacteria to nicotinic acid and nicotinamide is both species as well as strain dependent."

Examples of you equating niacinamide and nicotinamide :
"By combining the dirt cheap and widely available D-ribose and plain niacinamide you can get the same effects as ingesting nicotinamide riboside."
"For those interested specifically in treating the dry-eye condition, the treatment in this case was a 5% solution of the NAD+ precursors nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) or nicotinamide riboside (NR), which means plain niacinamide should be just as effective for raising NAD+"
"despite its own studies demonstrating that niacinamide / nicotinamide (NAM) is just as effective at raising NAD/NADH"
.."daily intake of nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), a metabolite of niacinamide and a direct precursor to NAD"

Much love and respect to you Georgi

Nicotinamide and niacinamide are the same substance. Different names, same chemical. The claims about metabolites are that nicotinamide riboside and nitocinamide mononucleotide are metabolites of niacinamide/nicotinamide, not that niacinamide is metabolite of nicotinamide or vice versa.
If they found that niacinamide/nicotinamide enhances MAP growth, then so be it. I was only stating that in the closely-related human TB causing bacteria niacinamide/nicotinamide have inhibitory effects. It would be nice to see more in-vivo studies with MAP and the vit. B3 analogs, since animal studies have found niacinamide/nicotinamide to benefit IBD, which is hard to reconcile with the results in this study of vit. B3 promoting MAP. Maybe it is a dose-dependent effect...

Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide replenishment rescues colon degeneration in aged mice - Signal Transduction and Targeted Therapy

Boosting the level of a coenzyme regulating metabolism could help treat constipation and other aging-related intestinal problems. Researchers in Hangzhou, China, led by Qinsong Sheng from the First Affiliated Hospital of Zhejiang University and Zhenyu Ju from Hangzhou Normal University studied...

www.nature.com

Nicotinamide Ameliorates Dextran Sulfate Sodium-Induced Chronic Colitis in Mice through Its Anti-Inflammatory Properties and Modulates the Gut Microbiota

Vitamin B (nicotinamide (NAM)), one of the most important nutritional components for humans, exerts anti-inflammatory activity. This study was aimed at investigating the effect of NAM on the gut microbiota and short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) in mice with chronic colitis. Colitis was induced in...

www.hindawi.com

NAMPT mitigates colitis severity by supporting redox-sensitive activation of phagocytosis in inflammatory macrophages

Nicotinamide phosphoribosyltransferase (NAMPT) is the rate-limiting enzyme in the nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) salvage pathway and plays a…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Dave Clark]

I had decided last year to do the daily aspirin thing, about 300 mg/day. Everything seemed fine for about a month, then I started getting nosebleeds. I thought it was just capillary sensitivity from my allergies, etc., then i remembered {lol}, I am using aspirin. I quit using it daily, and in two days the nose bleeding went away and didn't come back. I am not an aspirin hater, I love aspirin for pain and inflammation, and I use it for acute issues. But, for daily use, I suppose it just thins my blood too much, maybe in conjunction with my other supplements. The other thing I noticed, and my wife, is that aspirin tends to constipate us. When we take aspirin for a headache, etc., we joke, "well, I guess I won't be going tomorrow, lol". I wonder if anyone else gets that affect from aspirin., haven't read that.
Anyway, I will only use aspirin acutely, not chronically.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Nicotinamide and niacinamide are the same substance. Different names, same chemical.

Which is why it is pointless to be having this conversation in the first place :)

since animal studies have found niacinamide/nicotinamide to benefit IBD, which is hard to reconcile with the results in this study of vit. B3 promoting MAP. Maybe it is a dose-dependent effect...

In my case I always have the same negative effect when using pure niacinamide powder similar to when I have some increased endotoxin symptoms, increased fermentation in the gut or allergy. I always have some flaky skin, chalk-like scalp, overall dryness etc. which further increase day after day of taking it. For the past 6 months I've been reading almost daily about granulomatous diseases (Since I have Crohn's, eczema, psoriasis, arthritis, fungal issues) and it's connection to 1,25D, calcium metabolism etc. Well in my case it seems that niacinamide exacerbate my granulomatous diseases probably by increasing the macrophage conversion of 25D to 1,25D all over my body (outside of the kidneys). My guess is that this conversion is increased and macrophages are activated because niacinamide is feeding/increasing growth of these pathogens.

I'm trying metadichol/nano soma in the coming days which supposedly fix issues with vitamin D receptors and pathogen involvement in these VDR so I'm hopeful to say the least and I will report back.

As far as the dosages I've tried many dosages and I always have the similar symptoms. I don't get much of an intestinal problems but I think I would have them If I continued using it for a couple of weeks.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I've read that some people are deficient in copper, and that as a result their stomach linings as a result are sensitive to aspirin. Aspirin made with copper into copper acetalsalicylate is said to be more acceptable.

Thanks yerrag never heard of that before. Very interesting.

 

[haidut]

Which is why it is pointless to be having this conversation in the first place :)

I simply did not see the quote from their study showing that niacin and niacinamide/nicotinamide enhanced MAP growth, and that's why I asked for sources. If you find other sources, aside from this study, please share in this thread.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I simply did not see the quote from their study showing that niacin and niacinamide/nicotinamide enhanced MAP growth, and that's why I asked for sources.

If that is the case then all is clear :)

If you find other sources, aside from this study, please share in this thread.

Sure.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have Crohn's disease and I have the same pain in my Ileum when I take aspirin as to when I have Crohn's flare up. Bleeding is mostly the side effect of my Crohn's and I also experience the same symptoms when I take aspirin but also when I take VIT D3 [And I don't have the time to share all the numerous studies in my notes to show why that is interesting in this case]

As far as the H Pylori thing it is usually in lower numbers in people with Crohn's and in some cases shown to even be protective.

"It has been suggested that H. pylori infection protects against the chronic inflammatory bowel diseases [IBD] Crohn’s disease [CD] and ulcerative colitis [UC]. Several case-control studies have shown a lower prevalence of H. pylori in patients with CD and UC compared with a healthy control group."

"The association between Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) infection and Crohn’s disease (CD) prevalence is still unclear. In this retrospective study, we collected 229 CD patients and 248 control subjects to investigate the risk factors for prevalence, extent and severity of CD. Through extensive analysis, we found significantly lower H. pylori infection rates in CD patients"

I've tried taking it in so many different ways that I've lost count. Also low doses, like only 10mg. I've always have the same results. Pain in my intestines, kidneys, increase in tinnitus, dizziness/drowsiness and bleeding (if I continue using it for couple of days).

It never helped me when using aspirin. In fact K2 MK4 when I used it for prolong period of time cause me some serious side effects.
"Cooked greens, milk, cheese, and eggs are very good sources of K. The solvents used to extract vitamin K, for example from natto, often cause problems. The present vitamin K culture is the creation of marketing campaigns, and is causing a lot of harm." - Ray Peat

you were addressing pains that I wasn't. I said that stomach pain when taking aspirin is caused by H Pylori infestation. I totally 100% believe this and have tested it -- dealing with H Pylori will help me and many others tolerate aspirin without any stomach pain. I also believe enteric is very very damaging for the reasons I mentioned.

Dissolving aspirin, including some ascorbic acid and baking soda, will buffer it and allow it to hit the body without being concentrated on a small tissue area. That helps. And as I said, controlling H Pylori makes it very easily tolerated without gastric pain.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

I said that stomach pain when taking aspirin is caused by H Pylori infestation

I see but I don't understand what stomach pain has to do with Crohn's since it is inflammatory bowel disease. The inflammation of the stomach is some kind of gastritis and is totally different pathology. I'm happy for you you've found a way to make aspirin work but we are talking about two different things here.
The stomach probably involves totally different bacterium and biome since it's a totally different location.

The pain, discomfort and bleeding I experience after aspirin is related to ileum - which is end part of the small intestine and is very often involved in the pathology of Crohn's disease. I don't have any stomach issues per se.

Dissolving aspirin, including some ascorbic acid and baking soda, will buffer it and allow it to hit the body without being concentrated on a small tissue area

Tried it without the ascorbic acid - Didn't work unfortunately.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I see but I don't understand what stomach pain has to do with Crohn's since it is inflammatory bowel disease. The inflammation of the stomach is some kind of gastritis and is totally different pathology. I'm happy for you you've found a way to make aspirin work but we are talking about two different things here.
The stomach probably involves totally different bacterium and biome since it's a totally different location.

The pain, discomfort and bleeding I experience after aspirin is related to ileum - which is end part of the small intestine and is very often involved in the pathology of Crohn's disease. I don't have any stomach issues per se.


Tried it without the ascorbic acid - Didn't work unfortunately.

I didn’t say it had anything to do with Crohn’s. I was making my observation about STOMACH pain after consuming aspirin.