Pansterone - Liquid Pregnenolone/DHEA Mix

[managing]

Several people have commented in various places about breathlessness on Pansterone. I've noticed it too. @haidut can you comment on the cause/remedies to this? Overall effects are great, sans the breathlessness.

 

[Wagner83]

Maybe you are having a histamine reaction to dmso? There's a tocopherol version of the supplement now.

 

[managing]

Maybe you are having a histamine reaction to dmso? There's a tocopherol version of the supplement now.

I don't think so. Quite the reverse in many regards. At rest, breathing passages open up. Its not mucosal at all. Its just being really heavily out of breath at a level of exertiion that previously wouldn't have caused it.

 

[Jsaute21]

I just started Pansterone & Stressnon 2 weeks ago. So far, another happy customer of Idealabs. @haidut, you are a beast. In terms of dosing, i know that "conservative experimentation" is everything. However, any recommendations on starting these two supplements out. I currently use just two drops on Pansterone, 1 in each Psoas (as i have somewhat tight hips from my athlete days.) I have seen that DHEA can be a game changer in terms of alleviating muscle soreness. I mix Stressnon up as far as dosing strategies, which so far i like. Either 2 drops on scrotum, 2 on wrists, 4 in my coffee, etc.

Also, just want to confirm that keeping DHEA under 15 MG daily and Pregnenolone uner 100 MG seems to be optimal from an androgenic and HPTA feedback standpoint? It seems like these precursors have virtually no chance of shutdown unless one is gluttonous.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm not sure there's a risk of any serious shutdown as much as anti androgens / pro estrogens effects.

 

[Jsaute21]

You're saying there is a risk of pro estrogenic effects? @Wagner83.

 

[haidut]

I had an almost immediate recovery from some symptoms I'd been having over the last year (hair thinning, dry and flat hair, dandruff, dry skin, wrinkles developing on the forehead, and loss of appetite). It was so dramatic that even within a few minutes, my hair started to stand up again and I had this feeling of immediate relief and well-being. Funny thing is that I misread the label and only started with 2 drops.

Excellent, thanks for sharing! If you feel good on a low dose I would not increase unless you stop noticing effects. Pregnenolone and DHEA tend to work best when they are taken in doses that do not saturate the steroidogenic enzymes downstream.

 

[haidut]

Is there a way to keep Pansterone (DMSO version) from clogging the bottle? I've tried switching tops as well as taking the top off and rinsing it out and it always clogs back up again with a few days. It's hard to tell because it's a clear solution but there must be some solid precipitate in there or something that is clogging it. Has anyone else had this issue?

We may switch to different bottles as the current ones have a really narrow dropper and sometimes it malfunctions. I suppose you can pout into another container and use another dropper. People usually have droppers left over from other liquid products sold in stores. Most droppers in those bottles measure 24-25 drops per ml so it should be the same dose as the built in dropper in Pansterone.

 

[Wagner83]

You're saying there is a risk of pro estrogenic effects? @Wagner83.

I was referring to your idea of shutdown from ingesting copious amounts of dhea and pregnenolone. Haidut posted a study on too much pregnenolone being anti androgenic (progesterone is known for that too) and I'm pretty sure there's information on the forums on high doses dhea being estrogenic or at least tricky. In any case there's no reason to gulp down heaps of both and you should be able to monitor how you feel. Again I'm very far from an expert, I've just been doing some research around here and elsewhere on the internet, nothing you can't do better. :)

 

[haidut]

Yo !! I'm liking the MCT based version more than the DMSO since I get apply to places on the face. Thanks !

Great, glad to hear you like the other option. Any feedback on what was better using the tocopherol version?

 

[haidut]

I was referring to your idea of shutdown from ingesting copious amounts of dhea and pregnenolone. Haidut posted a study on too much pregnenolone being anti androgenic (progesterone is known for that too) and I'm pretty sure there's information on the forums on high doses dhea being estrogenic, especially if taken orally. In any case there's no reason to gulp down heaps of both and you should be able to monitor how you feel.

Anything over 10mg DHEA in a single dose is likely to raise estrone levels. Some people with a LOT of adipose tissue can get this effect even from 5mg but it is rare. As long as the single dose is kept below 10mg a person should be OK. Also a larger dose like 10mg takes much longer to process and convert into other steroids, so if you take a second dose within less than 24 hours of the 10mg dose, estrone will likely rise again. DHEA converts into androstenedione and androstenedione is a MUCH better substrate for aromatase than testosterone. So, you don't want to jack up androstenedione much beyond the physiological levels. The supplement Andro, which the baseball industry abused in the 1990s was just that - large doses of androstenedione, and quite a few people got liver issues due to the massive conversion into estrogens.

 

[Jsaute21]

@Wagner83 yes, I have come across those studies from @haidut. I have been very conservative from dosing. I'm Irish which means my "murphy's law" philosophies are unfortunately very real. Put it this way, if there were 100,000 studies confirming the safety of these supplements in moderation, and one that stated the contrary, I would focus on the one negative.

 

[haidut]

Several people have commented in various places about breathlessness on Pansterone. I've noticed it too. @haidut can you comment on the cause/remedies to this? Overall effects are great, sans the breathlessness.

Pregnenolone is a powerful aldosterone antagonist, so it may cause sodium loss in higher doses but it is very individual and some people may get it from small doses too. Maybe taking with food or lowering/changing the dose can mitigate it.

 

[managing]

Pregnenolone is a powerful aldosterone antagonist, so it may cause sodium loss in higher doses but it is very individual and some people may get it from small doses too. Maybe taking with food or lowering/changing the dose can mitigate it.

Thanks Haidut. I am going to copy your response on the other thread, as it was a little more detailed:
"As I posted in a few other threads, and you noticed already, pregnenolone is a potent aldosterone antagonist while DHEA is a potassium channel blocker. Androsterone is a calcium channel blocker, and possibly a potassium one as well given that it is the same as DHEA minus the unsaturated bond at C-5. So, in certain doses (probably unique for everybody) you could get a mineral imbalance. Maybe taking with orange juice or food would be optimal, or simply lower the dose."

I would imagine this is the mechanism. Before pansterone I was using DHEA sublingual (2.5 to 5 mg/d) without these effects. It may be the combo that was doing it. For now, I've stopped pansterone and started androsterone at 1 drop. I've previously had the breathlessness from oral pregnenolone and I would imagine this is the component doing it.

I was only using 1 drop 3x/d of pansterone. It seemed like it took awhile to kick in (breathlessness). For now, off it, but may come back with 1 drop before bed after break and see how it goes.

 

[Jsaute21]

What do you think is a good trial for this supplement? Have noticed some real positive effects in terms of patience, muscle hardness etc, but a rise libido hasn't accompanied. I would acrually say it has lowered.

I have been using two drops on scrotum with an additional two drops of stressnon with my morning coffee. Hard to gage whether stress hormones are being lowered or it's just not quite agreeing with me.

 

[haidut]

What do you think is a good trial for this supplement? Have noticed some real positive effects in terms of patience, muscle hardness etc, but a rise libido hasn't accompanied. I would acrually say it has lowered.

I have been using two drops on scrotum with an additional two drops of stressnon with my morning coffee. Hard to gage whether stress hormones are being lowered or it's just not quite agreeing with me.

In terms of how long you'd have to use it to see effects? I think a week is enough to build up enough of it in the system and determine what the systemic effects would be in your case. So, whatever you have seen by now seems pretty consistent with most reports, minus the libido. I would do tests for androgens if possible before changing the dose or discontinuing.

 

[Jsaute21]

Thanks @haidut. I will order some bloods. My two other questions are how long does Pansterone stay in the blood for? I ask because i feel so damn good when i take pansterone (2 drops on balls with an extra two drops of stressnon) in the morning. Sometimes this will last me throughout the day, but other times i will feel pretty cold and hypo at night.) Also, i assume headaches the next morning represent not sufficient fuel for the supplements?

 

[managing]

Thanks Haidut. I am going to copy your response on the other thread, as it was a little more detailed:
"As I posted in a few other threads, and you noticed already, pregnenolone is a potent aldosterone antagonist while DHEA is a potassium channel blocker. Androsterone is a calcium channel blocker, and possibly a potassium one as well given that it is the same as DHEA minus the unsaturated bond at C-5. So, in certain doses (probably unique for everybody) you could get a mineral imbalance. Maybe taking with orange juice or food would be optimal, or simply lower the dose."

I would imagine this is the mechanism. Before pansterone I was using DHEA sublingual (2.5 to 5 mg/d) without these effects. It may be the combo that was doing it. For now, I've stopped pansterone and started androsterone at 1 drop. I've previously had the breathlessness from oral pregnenolone and I would imagine this is the component doing it.

I was only using 1 drop 3x/d of pansterone. It seemed like it took awhile to kick in (breathlessness). For now, off it, but may come back with 1 drop before bed after break and see how it goes.

BTW @haidut : how would you suggest dealing with this? I really like everything about Pansterone except this. I've been off it a week. I can definitely lower dose (was 1 drop 3xday) and raise OJ. But if it is blocking potassium and calcium channels, is it revealing a deficiency in K/Ca? Would raising K/Ca be called for? I made a topical Ca in caprylic acid that seemed to help for a few days and then lose its effectiveness. Perhaps add K? I'm willing to experiment, but would appreciate the benefit of your experience . . .

 

[haidut]

BTW @haidut : how would you suggest dealing with this? I really like everything about Pansterone except this. I've been off it a week. I can definitely lower dose (was 1 drop 3xday) and raise OJ. But if it is blocking potassium and calcium channels, is it revealing a deficiency in K/Ca? Would raising K/Ca be called for? I made a topical Ca in caprylic acid that seemed to help for a few days and then lose its effectiveness. Perhaps add K? I'm willing to experiment, but would appreciate the benefit of your experience . . .

If you ingest enough dairy and things like OJ or potatoes then the Pansterone should not be causing issues. I don't know what the optimal potassium/calcium dose would be for you though. But if if you get at least 1g calcium and 3g potassium daily you should be OK.

 

[haidut]

Thanks @haidut. I will order some bloods. My two other questions are how long does Pansterone stay in the blood for? I ask because i feel so damn good when i take pansterone (2 drops on balls with an extra two drops of stressnon) in the morning. Sometimes this will last me throughout the day, but other times i will feel pretty cold and hypo at night.) Also, i assume headaches the next morning represent not sufficient fuel for the supplements?

DHEA and pregnenolone have very short half lives but they get converted into pregnenolone sulfate, DHEA-S and other steroids. The sulfated versions have much longer half life, as much as a few days. It is hard to talk about half life for pregnenolone and DHEA directly as they get so heavily converted into other steroids. Some of the headache could be hypoglycemia as both steroids can lower blood sugar. The studies with DHEA effect on Leydig cells used only one dose per 24h, so they thought it is enough to provide raw material for whole day, which may explain why you get long lasting effects.