Bioavailability, Androgenicity, And Estrogenicity Of DHEA

[sladerunner69]

I think Dhea in DMSO is dangerous because it is too much,

Actually I have been considerring this as well. I use to mix powder dhea with a bit of rum and coconut oil and rub it on my skin, which had a rofound effect. Often it was too strong, and left my brain feeling jumbelled and put me one dge and irritable.

If the note that dmso potentiates steroids up to 10x the effect of oral administraiton, then jsut oe drop of pansterone is equivalent to 5mg of oral dhea, which is a solid dose. Some individuals apparently cannot take even 2mg orally without estrogenic effects, and Dr. Peat sticks with 1 or 2 mg because he lieks a mild effect and anymore feels strange to him and I agree, take a 25 mg dhea pill and you will see how crazy and whacked out it makes you feel.

Anyways these people taking 8 drops pansterone a few times daily are getting the equivalent of 50mg-100mg daily oral dhea, except supposedly topical subdues the possibility that if will aromoatize to estrogen but still that effect is crazy strong and may not be the best idea.

I actually took 2 drops in the morning on wednesday and along with a few drops of stressnon and a few cups of coffee and fat soluble vitamins was feeling real intense. After a few hours of reading at the coffee shop, I got in the car to drive back home because my brain began to get jumbled up and out of focus as preg/dhea often does to me. I guess I could not concentrate in the car because I hit an elderly man in the parking lot and knocked him over. Bystanders crowded around,, the emergency services showed up and ambulanced him away to the hosptial. I needed to be more focussed, and I will likely lose my license now that I have had 3 serious accidents in the past few years.

I am not sure if I would have not gotten in an accident if it werent for DHEA/preg but sometimes in can seriously hurt my concentration...

 

[PUTFOT]

If you found the study, why don't you look inside and find out? Why ask me when you found a possible source?

Too much gaba.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

I guess I could not concentrate in the car because I hit an elderly man in the parking lot and knocked him over. Bystanders crowded around,, the emergency services showed up and ambulanced him away to the hosptial. I needed to be more focussed, and I will likely lose my license now that I have had 3 serious accidents in the past few years.

I am not sure if I would have not gotten in an accident if it werent for DHEA/preg but sometimes in can seriously hurt my concentration...

Is this a joke? Maybe calm down on the supplements, man.

 

[sladerunner69]

Is this a joke? Maybe calm down on the supplements, man.

No of course not. I was taking a tone of supplements and DHEA and it was making me feel too relaxed/euphoric and I could no concentrate properly.

 

[Constatine]

No of course not. I was taking a tone of supplements and DHEA and it was making me feel too relaxed/euphoric and I could no concentrate properly.

I've been there. My life went on pause for a while due to too much of Haidut's products. They are great but very powerful. One must be careful to not abuse such power.

 

[sladerunner69]

I've been there. My life went on pause for a while due to too much of Haidut's products. They are great but very powerful. One must be careful to not abuse such power.

LOL yes precisely. My life has been on pause for quite some time as well, so much focus on experimenting with different metabolism and androgen boosting substances. The more suppelments I added, the more dissassociated and withdrawn from life I would get.

That is really the main caveat with our battle against stress hormones, and I have been mentionning this elsewhere on the forum to little avail... Our crusade against cortisol, estrogen, serotonin has its merits to be sure, and I do beleive they are the primary cause of degenerative conditions and illness and aging, but speaking practically they serve a purpose, especially cognitively. Some amount of these substances are needed to funciton in life, to motivate you, to get you working. Without them one is left in a euphoric, sleepy daze that is unproductive, lackadaisical, and honestly quite irritating. Too low stress hormones can be jsut as bad as too high stress hormones in terms of how it can affect mood, if not even worse.

Why is it that so many people report using Serotonin and cortisol boosting supplements and workout and diet regimines and feeling fantastic? They are "high" on cortisol and adrenaline and serotonin. Why else would so any scientists consider serotonin a "feel good" chemical if the studies didn;t indicate it? It placates you, making you feel content with things but not curious or inquisitive. These people using 5-htp and designer drugs and ssri inhiitors see success for this reason. Also these stress hormones are naturally occuring within the body, so the rganism is designed to funciton with them running through the blood. Having no stress hormones makes you feel discombobulated.

The Peat diet itself is very unnatural, no human would ahve access to so much fresh fruit or dairy in the pre-agricultural times. A Peat style, metabolically friednly diet and using red light can really effectively protect against stress hormones and I beleive using supplements on top of a diet like we are following is simply beatinga dead horse into a pulp. It is really going to far, which is wh Peat himself recommends using such small dosages of everything and only uses one supplement per day, with the exception of caffiene and aspirin/k2 and says 5mg of b6 is a big dose, 1g niacinmde is a daily max, 1g aspirin is a daily max, and generally reccomends against the use of exogenous hormones. When he takes DHEA it is jsut 2 mg, pregnenlone he was just using 30mg daily, thyroid just a tiny amount every couple hours etc. Many of hadits products deliver dosages that are above what is optimal for someone using this diet.

 

[Constatine]

LOL yes precisely. My life has been on pause for quite some time as well, so much focus on experimenting with different metabolism and androgen boosting substances. The more suppelments I added, the more dissassociated and withdrawn from life I would get.

That is really the main caveat with our battle against stress hormones, and I have been mentionning this elsewhere on the forum to little avail... Our crusade against cortisol, estrogen, serotonin has its merits to be sure, and I do beleive they are the primary cause of degenerative conditions and illness and aging, but speaking practically they serve a purpose, especially cognitively. Some amount of these substances are needed to funciton in life, to motivate you, to get you working. Without them one is left in a euphoric, sleepy daze that is unproductive, lackadaisical, and honestly quite irritating. Too low stress hormones can be jsut as bad as too high stress hormones in terms of how it can affect mood, if not even worse.

Why is it that so many people report using Serotonin and cortisol boosting supplements and workout and diet regimines and feeling fantastic? They are "high" on cortisol and adrenaline and serotonin. Why else would so any scientists consider serotonin a "feel good" chemical if the studies didn;t indicate it? It placates you, making you feel content with things but not curious or inquisitive. These people using 5-htp and designer drugs and ssri inhiitors see success for this reason. Also these stress hormones are naturally occuring within the body, so the rganism is designed to funciton with them running through the blood. Having no stress hormones makes you feel discombobulated.

The Peat diet itself is very unnatural, no human would ahve access to so much fresh fruit or dairy in the pre-agricultural times. A Peat style, metabolically friednly diet and using red light can really effectively protect against stress hormones and I beleive using supplements on top of a diet like we are following is simply beatinga dead horse into a pulp. It is really going to far, which is wh Peat himself recommends using such small dosages of everything and only uses one supplement per day, with the exception of caffiene and aspirin/k2 and says 5mg of b6 is a big dose, 1g niacinmde is a daily max, 1g aspirin is a daily max, and generally reccomends against the use of exogenous hormones. When he takes DHEA it is jsut 2 mg, pregnenlone he was just using 30mg daily, thyroid just a tiny amount every couple hours etc. Many of hadits products deliver dosages that are above what is optimal for someone using this diet.

Yes the stress hormones are very useful for times of stress (which is most of modern day life). It is best for health to keep stress hormones low (especially serotonin). But low is not zero and when the stress hormones drop unnaturally you get some strange effects. Moderation is key with any supplement, and the more potent the supplement the more the potential for overdosing. I find that with most of haidut's supplements one drop or less than one drop is optimal (dilution).
When I was overdosing on androgenic substances and lowered stress hormones too low I could literally not feel any fear/excitement/anxiety. A guy put a gun up to my head and I blankly stared at him until he backed off (probably out of fear considering I was not reacting). We need some level of arousal or we will simply not function properly.
As for how natural the Peat diet it is difficult to say. We really know nothing about the diets of those long ago. Some scientists or "experts" might think they know but it is just foolish to think so.

 

[Wagner83]

Yeah I agree with some of what you both said, an other thing is it is always tempting to use supplements to push ourself to the limit of how great we feel but it is easy to lose focus on metabolism as the holistic approach to health (which really is what got me interested in Peat's approach): diet , lifestyle, exercising, socializing (etc..) and maybe using a few safe supplements like aspirin, well cooked white button mushrooms etc...

 

[sladerunner69]

Yes the stress hormones are very useful for times of stress (which is most of modern day life). It is best for health to keep stress hormones low (especially serotonin). But low is not zero and when the stress hormones drop unnaturally you get some strange effects. Moderation is key with any supplement, and the more potent the supplement the more the potential for overdosing. I find that with most of haidut's supplements one drop or less than one drop is optimal (dilution).
When I was overdosing on androgenic substances and lowered stress hormones too low I could literally not feel any fear/excitement/anxiety. A guy put a gun up to my head and I blankly stared at him until he backed off (probably out of fear considering I was not reacting). We need some level of arousal or we will simply not function properly.
As for how natural the Peat diet it is difficult to say. We really know nothing about the diets of those long ago. Some scientists or "experts" might think they know but it is just foolish to think so.

Right right. I hate it when people shove the barrel of a gun in my face. Why did that happen, was he trying to rob you? What kind of place do you live in?

I thnk experts, anthropoloists and archaeologists have a good idea of what early modern humans ate because of early texts and drawings and ruins. Early humans from before the agricultural age is probably harder to understand, but it is safe to assume they were hunter gatherers and it seems difficult to "gather" enough fruit to boost the metabolism, especially before the fruits were genetically selected to be sweeter and larger.

 

[Regina]

Yes the stress hormones are very useful for times of stress (which is most of modern day life). It is best for health to keep stress hormones low (especially serotonin). But low is not zero and when the stress hormones drop unnaturally you get some strange effects. Moderation is key with any supplement, and the more potent the supplement the more the potential for overdosing. I find that with most of haidut's supplements one drop or less than one drop is optimal (dilution).
When I was overdosing on androgenic substances and lowered stress hormones too low I could literally not feel any fear/excitement/anxiety. A guy put a gun up to my head and I blankly stared at him until he backed off (probably out of fear considering I was not reacting). We need some level of arousal or we will simply not function properly.
As for how natural the Peat diet it is difficult to say. We really know nothing about the diets of those long ago. Some scientists or "experts" might think they know but it is just foolish to think so.

Constatine, I think you handled the guy with the gun exquisitely. You're making a good case for androgening up!!

 

[Constatine]

Right right. I hate it when people shove the barrel of a gun in my face. Why did that happen, was he trying to rob you? What kind of place do you live in?

I thnk experts, anthropoloists and archaeologists have a good idea of what early modern humans ate because of early texts and drawings and ruins. Early humans from before the agricultural age is probably harder to understand, but it is safe to assume they were hunter gatherers and it seems difficult to "gather" enough fruit to boost the metabolism, especially before the fruits were genetically selected to be sweeter and larger.

I live in a nice place. It was just at a sketchy party a friend took me to.
Your probably right regarding most ancient peoples.

Constatine, I think you handled the guy with the gun exquisitely. You're making a good case for androgening up!!

Well that certainly is one advantage to androgening up.

 

[sladerunner69]

I live in a nice place. It was just at a sketchy party a friend took me to.
Your probably right regarding most ancient peoples.

Well that certainly is one advantage to androgening up.

But why did he stick a gun barrell in your grill homie?

 

[Constatine]

But why did he stick a gun barrell in your grill homie?

This guy jumped my friend for fun, neither of us had ever seen him prior. I stepped in to help and I'm a pretty big guy so the guy pulled a gun on me. In my androgen induced state I just stared him down until he left. He probably thought I was about to make a move and he would have to use the gun. And I honestly don't know if I was, androgens can be dangerous sometimes.

 

[Ron J]

Hey @haidut
If I plan to use on scrotum, wouldn't DHEA dissolved in alcohol be a bad idea? What do you think about dissolving in glycerin(if it's possible)?
*Edit: Or coconut oil, but it has a substance that lowers DHT/5AR, so not sure if it's a good idea to apply directly either.

 

[Sucrates]

I've been using DHEA topically (arms) in coconut oil, is this a problem?

 

[japanesedude]

I just stumbled upon yet another study showing androgenic effects of DHEA. This study is in vitro and used Leydig cells as a model. This should serve as a good model of what would happen if DHEA was delivered directly into the testicles, which a topical application of DHEA on the scrotum should be able to achieve. The study is free, so those interested in the effects can read the whole thing. Bottom line, DHEA converted mostly into testosterone and lowered aromatase expression. However, this latter effect was something the authors thought may be due to increased estrogen initiating negative feedback. They did not find increased levels of estrogen, but I am throwing it out there to be cautious about. The lowest dose of DHEA used, which corresponds to about 6mg oral dose for a human, increased testosterone but did not change aormatase or estrogen. So, even though the effects on testosterone from 6mg DHEA were not as big as the 600mg dose there were also no estrogenic effects either.

Dehydroepiandrosterone-Regulated Testosterone Biosynthesis via Activation of the ERK1/2 Signaling Pathway in Primary Rat Leydig Cells. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/430150

"...CONCLUSION: These findings demonstrate that (a) exogenous DHEA might preferentially convert to testosterone rather than estradiol due to the up-regulation of 3β-HSD and 17β-HSD protein levels and the down-regulation of aromatase protein level in primary Leydig cells, and (b) the action of DHEA is at least partly associated with the elevation of p-ERK1/2 and p-CREB protein levels."

Taurine,Pyridoxine Hydrochloride,Coconutoil and Oliveoil (Dietary lipids modify redox homeostasis and steroidogenic status in rat testis. - PubMed - NCBI) seems to increase both 3β-HSD and 17β-HSD enzymes.
so It maybe good to stack with DHEA to enhance the conversion of DHEA to testosterone.

 

[Wagner83]

Ray seems to favor oral use of supplements unless there's an issue with part of the skin or particular tissues. Given your OP, are you saying DHEA can be converted to DHT directly by 5-ar in the skin? If not, then wouldn't dhea be metabolized to something different and then reach other parts of the skin , so not the skin and no high 5ar activity.

 

[2thecloudsabove]

Percutaneous (transdermal) administration has androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio of over 10:1, subcutaneous has a ratio 3:1, and oral has a ratio of 2:1.

What is the androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio of the endogenously produced serum DHEA?

 

[haidut]

What is the androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio of the endogenously produced serum DHEA?

Nobody knows that as it depends on many factors, such as stress and inflammation. In higher doses it is estrogenic as evidence by increased estrone and decreased androgen levels in 35+ year olds.

 

[ddjd]

Slightly off topic but haidut what do you think about taking T3 and DHT together?
I always seem to get an Estrogenic reaction to T3 so I suspect taking T3 with the DHT might really help push it towards Testosterone rather than Estrogen. Any thoughts?