Nightmarish Life After 8 Years On SSRIs

[paymanz]

@Johnson Bagfoot search the forum ,you can find good info.

 

[Cymatic]

Also, unfortunately no doctor or nutritionist will know what is going on with you. Iatrogenic effects from SSRIs is still a grey area of ignorance. These drugs simply don't cause any of this in the eyes of the medical community.

Aside from blood tests, save your money and prepare to do a lot of reading.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

lots of urination sound like prostate Which iirc is either caused by prolactin or estrogen. balding sounds like prolactin as well. Does your hairline get inflamed?

Iirc prolactin has something to do with estrogen and the liver. Do you eat bread? I'd suggest you stop. I'd suggest a diet high in fruit and gelatin.

have you tried coffee?
have you tried thyroid?
have you tried methylene blue?
have you tried aspirin, carrots, coconut oil, etc?

do you joints ache when you have wheat?
how is your libido?

 

[Marg]

I had a lot of your symptoms and was diagnosed with CFS , Neurally Mediated Hypotension (near fainting, fainting) and POTS postural tachycardia caused by compensatory high adrenaline. One minute near faint, then later jacked up with adrenaline wired out of my mind. Brainfiog, heart irregularities, neuropathic pain, myoclonic seizures, trouble sleeping at night and couldn't work as I was mostly disabled for several years.

I improved slowly by experimenting with what worked for me diet wise along with some supplements and have made major improvements. There are a few residual problems that crop up if I extend myself too much, but now I am functioning well.

I don't like SSRIs, and most people in the Cfs community don't do well on them.

Experiment diet wise to see what works best for you.

This thread might help too, my post is #19.

More On My Neuro Symtoms

Like you, I also used Zopiclone, and I really liked it, but I got off it because like Ambien, it poses potential of long term dangers.

 

[Tarmander]

@Johnson Bagfoot NDT is natural desiccated thyroid. Like armor, naturthroid, westhroid. I think almost any Peat substance on here is going to mess you up and overstimulate you. You basically have zero tolerance for any kind of metabolism stimulant. If you rest, your metabolism will increase and you do not have the nutrients to burn on that increase. So you stay stimulated, and stay alive to a certain extent, but you don't have the nutrients necessary so it's like torture. Liver and egg yolks have the highest amount of nutrition of any food. They are very easily tolerated.

Gelatin and most protein will probably be too stimulative. Literally anything you try is going to be too stimulative. I have been in that scenario: everything you touch seems to make things worse, and not doing anything seems to make things worse.

When I was in that scenario, liver and egg yolks were very tolerable, and NDT somehow is strengthening enough that it does not hurt...at least at first and if its coupled with good nutrition. The egg yolks and liver are easy to get, the NDT needs a prescription or get it from Haidut.

 

[milk]

I was on an SSRI for a few years.

A while ago I was feeling lethargic a lot of the time. Then I tried VLF (very low fat), as in less than 10 g fat a day, and it solved the issue.

Normal Peat diet, high protein, high carb, but very low fat.

 

[TeslaFan]

I have extremely bad reactions to the last few pharmaceuticals I've taken, so I want to stay away for now. K2 MK4 also seems to trigger fight or flight, not sure why?

Not sure why MK4 would cause such an effect. Are you sure the response was to MK4 and not a result of another supplement taken at the time, a stressful circumstance at the time, or perhaps, another coincidence?

Also, I still think Tianeptine is worth trying for ex-SSRI users, regardless of your previous bad reactions to other drugs. SSRIs, such as Celexa/Lexapro block SERT protein, and Tianeptine pulls Serotonin into platelets, thus allowing SERT to recover. It also up-regulates 5AR in CNS via opioid agonism, which was also down-regulated with SSRIs. It's a very good drug, and the only thing needed with it is Magnesium supplementation to handle the constipation side-effect.

 

[DaveFoster]

Mirtazapine's great. You'll eventually need to taper off though, unless you plan to be on it for life.

 

[Richiebogie]

I was extremely dizzy today, blacked out and had to go to hospital. I got picked up in an ambulance. Heart, blood sugar, etc, was okay.

What are you eating in a day and at what times? How many calories in total per day?

 

[LongRoad]

Also, Johnson, in addition to what Richiebogie asks, I don't think you really mentioned what meds and vitamins or supplements you are on now. I am reading your conversation and, although it is really out of character to participate, I felt really compelled to chime in because what you are experiencing seems similar to symptoms I have/had. I am not sure though and want to see if there is anything additional that agrees with me before going further.

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Thanks all. I greatly appreciate your input here, and similar experiences, especially those who have come out of the other side. It's true that no doctor or nutritionist really knows what's going on in the aftermath of protracted/long term SSRI withdrawals, and the habituated stress cycles they seem to produce.

Before going into too much detail, I'm going to get some blood tests tomorrow, then post them up. I have a lot of thyroidy symptoms (temperature, exercise intolerance, low resting heart rate, hair loss, etc), so this might be insightful. Having data as a baseline should make recovery more directed and quantitative.

Also, unfortunately no doctor or nutritionist will know what is going on with you. Iatrogenic effects from SSRIs is still a grey area of ignorance. These drugs simply don't cause any of this in the eyes of the medical community.

Aside from blood tests, save your money and prepare to do a lot of reading.

Yes definitely, and I completely empathise if this is also your situation. Reading hasn't helped much so far, I've just tried to adopt the healthiest habits I can and be gentle with myself (ie try not to trigger big adrenaline dumps on exertion). But now I'm looking to move into some nutritional/pharmaceutical options, since there hasn't been much improvement.

lots of urination sound like prostate Which iirc is either caused by prolactin or estrogen. balding sounds like prolactin as well. Does your hairline get inflamed?

Iirc prolactin has something to do with estrogen and the liver. Do you eat bread? I'd suggest you stop. I'd suggest a diet high in fruit and gelatin.

have you tried coffee?
have you tried thyroid?
have you tried methylene blue?
have you tried aspirin, carrots, coconut oil, etc?

do you joints ache when you have wheat?
how is your libido?

Hi, thanks for your post. I think there's prolactin/estrogen symptoms there, between prostate, hair loss, tendency for female fat storage. I actually have quite high T, strangely, but there are ostrogen patterns there for sure.

Coffee I have zero tolerance for. I become extremely jittery and enter fight or flight mode. I've avoided caffeine for years.

For thyroid, I'm getting more extensive blood tests before potentially introducing anything that will profoundly change my hormones.

I haven't researched methylene blue yet, although I've heard it being combined with k2 and swished around the mouth.

No aspirin, although coconut oil seems good for me, in terms of sustained energy and sleep.

Libido is pretty minimal. Maybe 15% of what it used to be 5 years ago. I'm still young. Mostly, I don't have the physical energy to go chasing girls. It takes a lot of exertion, and I have a risk of crashing at almost any point.

No observations about joint ache with wheat, although I'm currently avoiding all white floury starchy stuff.

I had a lot of your symptoms and was diagnosed with CFS , Neurally Mediated Hypotension (near fainting, fainting) and POTS postural tachycardia caused by compensatory high adrenaline. One minute near faint, then later jacked up with adrenaline wired out of my mind. Brainfiog, heart irregularities, neuropathic pain, myoclonic seizures, trouble sleeping at night and couldn't work as I was mostly disabled for several years.

I improved slowly by experimenting with what worked for me diet wise along with some supplements and have made major improvements. There are a few residual problems that crop up if I extend myself too much, but now I am functioning well.

I don't like SSRIs, and most people in the Cfs community don't do well on them.

Experiment diet wise to see what works best for you.

This thread might help too, my post is #19.

More On My Neuro Symtoms

Like you, I also used Zopiclone, and I really liked it, but I got off it because like Ambien, it poses potential of long term dangers.

Sounds almost exactly the same as me. What would you say were the most important factors of your recovery? What diet worked for you?

I'll read through your thread to learn more. And yes SSRIs have seemed way to stimulatory for me, I felt way more wired on them, when it felt like what my body needed was to be able to rest properly, which it hadn't done in a very long time.

Re zopiclone, I used it for sleep for a few months, but rebound and withdrawals put me at a far worse baseline in the mid term.

@Johnson Bagfoot NDT is natural desiccated thyroid. Like armor, naturthroid, westhroid. I think almost any Peat substance on here is going to mess you up and overstimulate you. You basically have zero tolerance for any kind of metabolism stimulant. If you rest, your metabolism will increase and you do not have the nutrients to burn on that increase. So you stay stimulated, and stay alive to a certain extent, but you don't have the nutrients necessary so it's like torture. Liver and egg yolks have the highest amount of nutrition of any food. They are very easily tolerated.

Gelatin and most protein will probably be too stimulative. Literally anything you try is going to be too stimulative. I have been in that scenario: everything you touch seems to make things worse, and not doing anything seems to make things worse.

When I was in that scenario, liver and egg yolks were very tolerable, and NDT somehow is strengthening enough that it does not hurt...at least at first and if its coupled with good nutrition. The egg yolks and liver are easy to get, the NDT needs a prescription or get it from Haidut.

I have found gelatin to be quite stimulatory. Why is is gelatin worse than liver? Just curious, I thought they were both high in Glycine?

I'll wait for blood results before looking at thyroid stuff - I don't want to push myself over the edge in a place of fragility. Thanks for the suggestion though, I'll definitely look at it when I learn more.

I was on an SSRI for a few years.

A while ago I was feeling lethargic a lot of the time. Then I tried VLF (very low fat), as in less than 10 g fat a day, and it solved the issue.

Normal Peat diet, high protein, high carb, but very low fat.

I think my past diet of high carb had quite a bad effect on me - ensuring blood sugar swings and crashes that seemed to trigger fight or flight mode or interrupted sleep much more. I'm currently looking at caloric surplus - high fat - lowish carb as an experiment?

Not sure why MK4 would cause such an effect. Are you sure the response was to MK4 and not a result of another supplement taken at the time, a stressful circumstance at the time, or perhaps, another coincidence?

Also, I still think Tianeptine is worth trying for ex-SSRI users, regardless of your previous bad reactions to other drugs. SSRIs, such as Celexa/Lexapro block SERT protein, and Tianeptine pulls Serotonin into platelets, thus allowing SERT to recover. It also up-regulates 5AR in CNS via opioid agonism, which was also down-regulated with SSRIs. It's a very good drug, and the only thing needed with it is Magnesium supplementation to handle the constipation side-effect.

Yes on hindsight it might have been the gelatin powder I had at the same time (which I did not consider as a cause). When taking thorne k2, it seems to be a little stimulatory, but doesn't produce a particularly bad reaction. Just a slight edge.

Mirtazapine's great. You'll eventually need to taper off though, unless you plan to be on it for life.

Any thoughts on using mirtazapine specifically after prolonged ssri use? Does it change anything, or have any potential healing mechanisms?

What are you eating in a day and at what times? How many calories in total per day?

Right now, I'm trialing 2200 cals, high sat fat, <50g carbs. Meat. Eggs. Vegetables. Avocados. Avoidance of all PUFA. I did not do well at all on high carb peaty diet. Things like orange juice are super likely to spike me adrenaline wise.

Also, Johnson, in addition to what Richiebogie asks, I don't think you really mentioned what meds and vitamins or supplements you are on now. I am reading your conversation and, although it is really out of character to participate, I felt really compelled to chime in because what you are experiencing seems similar to symptoms I have/had. I am not sure though and want to see if there is anything additional that agrees with me before going further.

Hi LongRoad. Thank you very much for chiming in. On my side, I'm about to get more extensive blood tests, so I'll update with more specific values for my baseline.

I'm currently taking no medication. Only valium very rarely when I'm having a huge adrenaline crash and need to get home. I learned that I had a bad reaction to almost everything, valium also causes a nasty rebound, so I try to avoid it. My last dose of sertraline was 4 months ago. I had tapered down over the course of 2 years.

Supplements wise, I've also tried about a hundred things. However, I felt there was risk of taking too much and not understanding which was beneficial. And it also seemed like I was hypersensitive to a lot of things. Currently, I'm only taking d3, k2, occasional C, occasional multi vit (garden of life). Nothing else.

I'll put my results up in this thread, but would also greatly appreciate anything you could share of your own story in the meantime - I have a lot of gratitude for any help from someone who has been in a similar position - I'm feeling very close to what I can describe as total burn out.

----

Many thanks everyone, Johnson

 

[DaveFoster]

@Johnson Bagfoot

Mirtazapine works on some very powerful homeostatic mechanisms:

Mirtazapine Is Effective in Steroid Withdrawal Syndrome Related Depression: A Case Report

It's perfectly reasonable to use mirtazapine during the withdrawal phase of a benzodiazepine or SSRI, and then taper off mirtazapine. It's neuroprotective, lowers adrenaline, serotonin, cortisol, stimulates appetite, and increases REM sleep, despite being a potent antidepressant.

 

[LongRoad]

Johnson....You don't know how great it is to hear that you are off of the antidepressants! I think you have done the hardest thing and you may be in a better position than you think. You will not have to deal with psych meds as a black box variable whenever you want to try something. It seems that no one really knows how the meds actually work or even if they really do work. One never
knows if a reaction you have to some natural protocol is because of an interaction with the meds or some damage to
your physiology caused by them as you fear. I think they cause more harm than good and people would never go on
them in the first place if mainstream medicine would give any (natural) alternatives and, in many cases, if people
were not, in ways, absolutely forced into starting with them.

I am not a health professional and therefore except for anectdotal personal knowledge and some web research that I
try to understand and piece together, you can say that I don't really have a full understanding of what I am
talking about here. I have no degree in sciences or medicine. I may not even be very smart--given how some
people with similar background are sometimes able to achieve a masterful understanding of complicated things
without formal training.

I am also not a pusher for any product or website.

I don't feel real comfortable talking about my whole situation on the internet and therefore may someimes be vague.
As I mentioned I saw your post and some of your symptoms were similar and I thought that I could help you in some
way by telling what I THINK helped me. And if you are helped by the info, that would validate my findings and
maybe help me get further in figuring this stuff out and where to go next as I am not done yet.

You seem to indicate that prior to your problem at 17 you were ok, (you were an athelete) (despite that they may
try to get you to believe you've always had your problems once they've exploded). What I mean is that some people
can never remember not having runaway problems. If you can point to a time you were ok then it's possible to get
back there provided you are not still subject to the things that may have triggered your issues in the first place.
If you are in a fire it's not hard to explain why you are burning. Step out of the fire if you can and then you
can begin to treat your burns.


Some quick advice is to pursue on the internet the adrenal aspect of your problems by looking up about adrenal
fatigue. In researching just today some more things I have found are starting to explain further the links to your
adrenal reactions owing to the way adrenals function, seretonin, blood sugar, electrolytes depression and anxiety
all interact physiologically in the body. You may not have all out adrenal fatigue but some of the things that help that
situation may help you.

I have to run right now but without going into a long story now I THINK much of my fight or flight/adrenaline
issues were caused by taking folate (goes by 5-mthf, l-methylfolate, 5-METHYLTETRAHYDROFOLATE, etc.) Your not
taking it now so I am not sure if this applys to you but the life extension vitamin you took had it and that may
explain why you had an issue with that formula. I stopped the folate and also took some natural steps (no
botanicals, just vitamins and minerals) to support adrenals and much of those issues went away.

I really hate enshrining what could be an unfounded dis to folate but I believe that for me that is what happened.

 

[Richiebogie]

I THINK much of my fight or flight/adrenaline
issues were caused by taking folate (goes by 5-mthf, l-methylfolate, 5-METHYLTETRAHYDROFOLATE, etc.)

Fascinating hypothesis.

Folate is compulsorily added to wheat flour in many countries, so those taking supplements are likely to get even more of this isolated chemical, which also goes by the name pteroyl-L-glutamate!

A biochemist Katherine Reid found that her daughter's autism was eradicated when she removed all sources of free glutamate from her diet. She said that free glutamate interfered with a lot of internal biochemical regulation.

She says free glutamate can cause different problems in different people.

She explains that most natural foods have bound glutamate, whereas wheat, dairy, additives and supplements are sources of free glutamate:

 

[Cymatic]

I hear you on the not knowing what to do part. Good call with taking an holistic approach because the organism really is compromised after a lengthy trial on these drugs.

I've experiemented quite a bit with combating my symptoms post SSRI and really the only 2 things to help me so far (reversed some symptoms) is niacinimide and r-andro (reduced form of DHEA)

I feel extremely passive and aloof after SSRI and the r-andro lit a fire under me - increased confidence, agression, libido. Now, not all the effects stayed after the cycle but I would say erection quality and general arousal has persistantly improved.

I also have pretty bad cog fog and short term memory loss which I combat with plenty of coffee as well.

Hang in there man. It might take a while but relish in the small triumphs.

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Johnson....You don't know how great it is to hear that you are off of the antidepressants! I think you have done the hardest thing and you may be in a better position than you think. You will not have to deal with psych meds as a black box variable whenever you want to try something. It seems that no one really knows how the meds actually work or even if they really do work. One never
knows if a reaction you have to some natural protocol is because of an interaction with the meds or some damage to
your physiology caused by them as you fear. I think they cause more harm than good and people would never go on
them in the first place if mainstream medicine would give any (natural) alternatives and, in many cases, if people
were not, in ways, absolutely forced into starting with them.

I am not a health professional and therefore except for anectdotal personal knowledge and some web research that I
try to understand and piece together, you can say that I don't really have a full understanding of what I am
talking about here. I have no degree in sciences or medicine. I may not even be very smart--given how some
people with similar background are sometimes able to achieve a masterful understanding of complicated things
without formal training.

I am also not a pusher for any product or website.

I don't feel real comfortable talking about my whole situation on the internet and therefore may someimes be vague.
As I mentioned I saw your post and some of your symptoms were similar and I thought that I could help you in some
way by telling what I THINK helped me. And if you are helped by the info, that would validate my findings and
maybe help me get further in figuring this stuff out and where to go next as I am not done yet.

You seem to indicate that prior to your problem at 17 you were ok, (you were an athelete) (despite that they may
try to get you to believe you've always had your problems once they've exploded). What I mean is that some people
can never remember not having runaway problems. If you can point to a time you were ok then it's possible to get
back there provided you are not still subject to the things that may have triggered your issues in the first place.
If you are in a fire it's not hard to explain why you are burning. Step out of the fire if you can and then you
can begin to treat your burns.


Some quick advice is to pursue on the internet the adrenal aspect of your problems by looking up about adrenal
fatigue. In researching just today some more things I have found are starting to explain further the links to your
adrenal reactions owing to the way adrenals function, seretonin, blood sugar, electrolytes depression and anxiety
all interact physiologically in the body. You may not have all out adrenal fatigue but some of the things that help that
situation may help you.

I have to run right now but without going into a long story now I THINK much of my fight or flight/adrenaline
issues were caused by taking folate (goes by 5-mthf, l-methylfolate, 5-METHYLTETRAHYDROFOLATE, etc.) Your not
taking it now so I am not sure if this applys to you but the life extension vitamin you took had it and that may
explain why you had an issue with that formula. I stopped the folate and also took some natural steps (no
botanicals, just vitamins and minerals) to support adrenals and much of those issues went away.

I really hate enshrining what could be an unfounded dis to folate but I believe that for me that is what happened.

Hi there, thank you for very much for posting your account. Interesting theory as the above poster says.

Could you go into more detail about the vitamins, minerals and other steps you took?

I had not even heard of folate being an issue, so I'll investigate it today.



I started taking 7.5mg mirtazapine 2 nights ago, and already feel better. Insomnia and constant cortisol spiking were a huge issue for me (especially in the morning and while trying to do light exercise). It seems to be reducing the chance of this happening. Also, my morning blood glucose is significantly lowered since starting mirtazapine. By about 20%. Presumably this is also because cortisol spikes it.

I'll likely stay on this until I recover, since it seems like a fairly safe cycle-breaking pharmaceutical with a profile similar to cyproheptadine.

 

[Makrosky]

@Johnson Bagfoot NDT is natural desiccated thyroid. Like armor, naturthroid, westhroid. I think almost any Peat substance on here is going to mess you up and overstimulate you. You basically have zero tolerance for any kind of metabolism stimulant. If you rest, your metabolism will increase and you do not have the nutrients to burn on that increase. So you stay stimulated, and stay alive to a certain extent, but you don't have the nutrients necessary so it's like torture. Liver and egg yolks have the highest amount of nutrition of any food. They are very easily tolerated.

Gelatin and most protein will probably be too stimulative. Literally anything you try is going to be too stimulative. I have been in that scenario: everything you touch seems to make things worse, and not doing anything seems to make things worse.

When I was in that scenario, liver and egg yolks were very tolerable, and NDT somehow is strengthening enough that it does not hurt...at least at first and if its coupled with good nutrition. The egg yolks and liver are easy to get, the NDT needs a prescription or get it from Haidut.

Good advice for the OP.

Just out of curiosity... why do you mention only NDT and not a combo of T4+T3 like haidut's TyroMix ?

 

[Tarmander]

Good advice for the OP.

Just out of curiosity... why do you mention only NDT and not a combo of T4+T3 like haidut's TyroMix ?

I tried TyroMix and it did not do as well as NDT pills...the more research I do the more I suspect it might be the DMSO.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Hi all,

I was extremely dizzy today, blacked out and had to go to hospital. I got picked up in an ambulance. Heart, blood sugar, etc, was okay. I heard them call my temperature as 96.1

I told them my history and symptoms. They suggested to get thyroid/endocrine investigated. Other symptoms not mentioned are also frequent urination, hair loss,

Mirroring what you are all suggesting.



I haven't seen diet make a big difference in my condition yet. The theory is probably close to the truth though. There are differences in tolerance.



Not sure how this is relevant?



I have zero tolerance to caffeine. Even a tiny bit makes me incredible jittery and triggers "fight or flight mode", it feels very much like I've swallowed some poison.

I will definitely get thyroids done and post them up.



Yes depleted is definitely the word. I feel like I'm hanging on to life by the fingernails, and yet tests so far have come back okay. Yes I'm aware that meditation can be quite deststabilising, I agree, it should carry a warning label much like medicines do.

What's NDT? And what does liver contain that will be useful? Is gelatin also useful in the same way?



I have extremely bad reactions to the last few pharmaceuticals I've taken, so I want to stay away for now. K2 MK4 also seems to trigger fight or flight, not sure why?





These seem premature before I know more precisely what's wrong? I've had a very bad reaction to many substances and don't want to make myself worse.

Or could you explain more how it might help or be safe in my instance? I'm curious about the biochemistry.



I've had a high sugar diet before, lots of milk, etc, it didnt seem to improve my symptoms, I would just crash harder?

-Johnson

Crash harder than ending up in the hospital almost dead? Did that happen during well fed periods?

 

[DaveFoster]

When I read your OP, I thought 24-hour cortisol could be insightful.

It sounds like you have chronic HPA activation, maybe elevated CRH, but measuring cortisol might be helpful. Have you considered an anti-serotonin drug and maybe a course of naltrexone? Both have stabilizing effects, and in your situation could be useful. Tianeptine has been mentioned, and its safe, as is cyproheptadine.

Also progesterone and DHEA together can protect nerves, along with niacinamide as mentioned.