Nightmarish Life After 8 Years On SSRIs

[Johnson Bagfoot]

What I'm dealing with:

- A very high adrenaline / fight or flight baseline that will get triggered by all kinds of stimulus. For example: limited sleep, a loud environment, exercise, lots of different supplements/vitamins, etc. It is like a general hypersensitivity that makes me dump adrenaline / crash on almost any input. An example might be, I walk for 10 minutes, then suddenly feel a flash of adrenaline being dumped, and find it hard to walk any further, especially up hill. I will frequently wake up after only a few hours with a sudden spike of adrenaline, or extreme tightness in my chest, that feels painful and seems to begin while I'm physically asleep.

- Chronic fatigue. I never feel rested, on top of the constant fight or flight symptoms. I've been room/bedridden twice, soon after I tapered (very slowly) off SSRIs in both instances. First for 6 months in 2012. Secondly for another 6 months in 2016. Although I got out and started doing things again in life, I feel like I'm barely hanging on by the fingernails. I crash frequently for days to weeks at a time, where I'm almost nonfunctional. Only being a postgrad student with mid-term deadlines allows for this. There is no way in hell I could have a regular job. I've also had to do things like get taxis to go 200meters up a hill.

- No tolerance for any stimulants, including caffeine. No tolerance for alcohol. No tolerance for sugar, a smoothie will make me crash big time within a few hours.

- Limited tolerance for relaxants. For instance, valium might knock me out, but it will make me feel fragile, disorientated, and have very strong rebounds. I take it rarely, but it used to just have a simple relaxing effect.

- Lots of trouble concentrating, remembering, keeping track of my own life. I'll lose track of weeks. Or physically something will happen. For instance, it will be extremely hot one night, I won't sleep at all, that starts a spiral of anxiety and adrenaline, I won't sleep again... I spend the entire week in a state of disorientation and cycling anxiety/fatigue until by fluke I manage to sleep a little or knock myself out somehow.

- My pulse is pretty low. 60 resting, 42 average over night. 50 in the morning. Despite exercising almost nothing. I used to be an athlete when I was younger though. And anxiety is a pretty good workout.
-----------------------------------

What caused it?

-I was on SSRIs a total of 8/9 years. Starting at age 17. With several attempts to stop. Firstly, celexa for 6 years. Then 6 months house bound when I tapered off. Then it was reintroduced. Meanwhile, I was still gradually falling apart and the "poop out" of staying on the pills was barely better than the protracted withdrawals of being off them.

Secondly, I tapered off again a few years later. The exact same thing happened. The symptoms above.... I went back onto a different drug, sertraline. This was extremely stimulating and made everything even worse. I tapered off it slowly again, and I find myself exactly where I was just before I got bedridden the last few times. Having the symptoms above.

-------------------------------------

How I understand it:

-Some long term damage to the serotoninergic and related systems through long term usage, especially given that I started at 17.

-Habituated stress responses or some kind of adrenal fatigue caused by protracted withdrawals, and years and years spent in a "fight or flight" mode.

-The cause as being physiological at this point. I also did 5,000+ hours of meditation in the last few years to alleviate the suffering of my condition. I managed to silence my mind. I managed to come to a place of watch what is happening to me without reacting to it. Despite this, everything on a physiological level continued. Nothing changed.

----------------------

What I've tried:

- Meditation (5000+ hours), bioenergetics, rolfing, alexander technique, breathing exercises, the buteyko technique (I raised my CP from 5 to 30, but my symptoms are 90% the same or quickly rebound to a low CP upon discontinuation). Also, trauma release exercises, various shaking and breathing things.
- Ashwaganda, bacopa, phosphatidylserine, tagara herb (similar structure to benzos), CLO, bacopa, N-Acetyl-Glucosamine, R-ALA, various super high potency multi vits like "Life Extension Mix, probably more than I can count. Almost nothing was helpful, or had strong rebounds.
- Valium, zopiclone (when I really couldn't sleep). Quickly made things much worse and I discontinued.
- Keeping busy, pushing forward, acting normal. Quickly burned me out and I ended up far worse than simply being gentle with myself.
- Exercising lightly. I'm either too fatigued, or adrenaline dump within 5 minutes of starting light exercise.
- Cardiologists, neurologists, GPs. I fainted twice too, and several times had anxiety / fight or flight so extreme I ended up in A&E overnight. No-one helped me, although a cardiologist suggested looking into low cortisol.

Also, about 100 other things that my mind isn't working too well to remember.

-----------------------

Blood tests have revealed almost nothing, except high-ish Triglycerides, a low-ish prediabetic hba1c. The only thing I haven't test is 24 hour Cortisol, although I'm not entirely sure if this will be useful?

What I'm considering

I could really do with some way of re-regulating the damage SSRIs did.

And secondly, to bring myself down and out of the constant fight or flight cycle I've been stuck inside for years. There seems to be no "rest and digest" response for me, I'm stuck inside a tumble dryer from hell.

- Mirtazapine, I have some in my drawer now but have not tried. Something I specifically requested to try after researching the anti-andrenaline/cortisol effects. I considered either starting it or using it once in a while when a crash cycle starts. I'm concerned about more withdrawals though.

- Cyproheptadine, have seen good words spoken about it here.


Otherwise, I'm really open to hearing anything that might help, or recommendations for more tests to do. Right now, I'm living 1% of the life I'd like to be living. I'd give any amount of money, or even both legs, to resolve these problems. They've continued such a long time, and I'm so...so worn out by it all. I'm only 25 but I feel incredibly old.

Boo hoo... Many thanks for reading !

- Johnson

 

[mayweatherking]

do u get constipation

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

do u get constipation

No. Digestion and gut issues are okay.

 

[mayweatherking]

No. Digestion and gut issues are okay.

what about libido?

 

[Richiebogie]

Don't give up your legs. If you find the solution you will need them for hiking and jogging.

Sounds like you haven't looked at diet much.

a smoothie will make me crash big time within a few hours.

A few hours is ok. Could be you are ready for your next drink.

Ray Peat explains that fruit sugar and table sugar goes through your liver to be split into single molecules of glucose and fructose.

He reckons it gives a more even supply of energy than eating starch which is a rapidly absorbed chain of glucose.

Try drinking (eating) a smoothie made up of 1kg of ripe spotty bananas, 500ml of water or freshly squeezed Orange Juice, 250g defrosted frozen mango and 5 tablespoons of rinsed desiccated coconut.

That should feed your muscles and brain, calm your nerves and get those legs working more consistently!

Have another one 2 hours later!

Intermittent fasting might help you detox though Ray Peat is not a fan. That involves delaying breakfast until about 12pm and then eating on and off until 8pm.

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Don't give up your legs. If you find the solution you will need them for hiking and jogging.

Sounds like you haven't looked at diet much.



A few hours is ok. Could be you are ready for your next drink.

Ray Peat explains that fruit sugar and table sugar goes through your liver to be split into single molecules of glucose and fructose.

He reckons it gives a more even supply of energy than eating starch which is a rapidly absorbed chain of glucose.

Try drinking (eating) a smoothie made up of 1kg of ripe spotty bananas, 500ml of water or freshly squeezed Orange Juice, 250g defrosted frozen mango and 5 tablespoons of rinsed desiccated coconut.

That should feed your muscles and brain, calm your nerves and get those legs working more consistently!

Have another one 2 hours later!

Intermittent fasting might help you detox though Ray Peat is not a fan. That involves delaying breakfast until about 12pm and then eating on and off until 8pm.

Thanks for your kind response.

I'm actually doing IF right now. An attempt to improve the chances of sleep / repairing sleep by not digesting anywhere near bed time.

Also... I forgot to mention. I have tried peaty diets. I didn't see much difference on the fight or flighty side of things. I'm currently trying low carb /cyclical ketogenic in the hope that removing blood glucose fluctuations and relying on fat will make my energy a bit more level.

But I guess overall, I see a pharmaceutical cause to my current issues, so I'm wondering how to actively repair the structures/pathways/faulty metabolism that was affected?

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

Sounds like a ****88 up liver to me mate. Maybe some of that glycogen refeeding stuff. Maybe some thyroid wouldn't hurt either. Also how are you as far as avoiding pufa and emf?

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Sounds like a ****88 up liver to me mate. Maybe some of that glycogen refeeding stuff. Maybe some thyroid wouldn't hurt either. Also how are you as far as avoiding pufa and emf?

What test would diagnose or give insight into this theory?

What are some initial supplements or protocols I could follow to test this theory?

I minimize PUFA and emf. Although probably a lot in the past. This seems to have been caused by ssris mainly though? I did not have these symptoms prior to introduction and withdrawal

 

[Richiebogie]

I'm currently trying low carb /cyclical ketogenic in the hope that removing blood glucose fluctuations and relying on fat will make my energy a bit more level.

I know a guy who has done that and has overcome his diabetes.

Denise Minger reckons that there are 2 extreme diets that seem optimal. Either your ketogenic high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet OR a low fat, low protein, high carb diet. The low fat has to be < 10%.

Perhaps we have a winter metabolism and a summer metabolism.

Denise suspects that trying to combine both at once leads to health issues:

In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

 

[Richiebogie]

About a year ago, my friend took up 200mg of aspirin each day with his coffee as a replacement antidepressant when he came off his SSRI's! He was on Aropax for approx 15 years then Escitalopram for 5 years.

His sleep apnoea seems to have gone if he sleeps on his side. He discovered this when his latest CPAP machine (breathing aid) died while on warranty!

 

[artlange]

What are some initial supplements or protocols I could follow to test this theory?

I started thyroid (natural desiccated thyroid) supplement when I discovered my waking body temperature was below 97.8F. I started one tab a day and every week or so increased until the waking temperature rose above 97.8F. I also cleaned up my diet, Milk, Ca eggshell, salt, Vit A, D, E, K, OJ, fruit, collagen, etc,. the normal peaty things discussed elsewhere on thie forum. My HR went from around 70 to 85, indicating increased metabolism. I now sweat a lot when I walk. before I seldom sweated, and was always cold with cold hands. It is all different now. you can check Ray Peat's articles www.raypeat.com regarding thyroid here is a link Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

 

[Energizer]

Hi Johnson, When I've been especially down, drinking extra coffee has been very helpful for my mood and energy I used to and still do occasionally drink a half gallon of very strong coffee. Coffee is very helpful in lowering serotonin as well provided you have it with food and coffee increases the metabolic rate. You may also want to have some thyroid labs done and post these to the forum, your low pulse is a sign you are likely hypothyroid. sorry to hear you're having some issues, I think most of these you will overcome if you can get your metabolic rate up, it's very clear you are having low energy symptoms and these are tied in with the metabolism. I would be cautious with fasting since it tends to lower the metabolic rate and can cause other issues like elevating free fatty acids.

 

[Tarmander]

I feel for you man. You sound very very depleted.

The meditation thing spiked my interest because I was a big meditator for four years or so, twice a day, mantra, etc. it really does NOT help stabilization in the long term in my experience. At least not how most people teach it.

If I were you man I'd look into getting some NDT, and then I would start consuming liver everyday or every other day and 4-6 egg yolks a day. The egg whites might be too stimulating. The NDT will really help with the everything is stimulating to you. I know this from personal experience. But you'll be back to square one without enough nutrients in about 2 weeks to a month on NDT.

Let me know if you try it so I know if it works for others and not just me.

 

[TeslaFan]

I found that a couple of weeks on Tianeptine was very helpful in permanently getting off an SSRI drug.
After that, diet and nutrition were enough to keep things good. Notably, fat solubles (A, E, K2) and B vitamins.

 

[paymanz]

Taurine and clonidine, give them a try.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

high dose pregnenolone for the mental effects

 

[Peatful]

Thanks for your kind response.

I'm actually doing IF right now. An attempt to improve the chances of sleep / repairing sleep by not digesting anywhere near bed time.

Also... I forgot to mention. I have tried peaty diets. I didn't see much difference on the fight or flighty side of things. I'm currently trying low carb /cyclical ketogenic in the hope that removing blood glucose fluctuations and relying on fat will make my energy a bit more level.

But I guess overall, I see a pharmaceutical cause to my current issues, so I'm wondering how to actively repair the structures/pathways/faulty metabolism that was affected?

I say stop the IF immediately.
U need constant steady good supply of sugars.
You must keep your blood sugar up to calm your adrenals down....to stop the adrenaline and fight or flight feeling u describe.
Also, I would back off on all the supplements to ease up on your liver.
Also, I would say no exercise except for nature walks.
U need to address your diet and nutrition first. Doing the low carb keto diet u state u r doing is a bigger issue than post SSRI effects. Eat carbs/sugars to heal.

 

[Cymatic]

I certainly know what you arr going through. I was only on SSRIs for about a half a year and I'm still dealing with a list of symptoms 8 months later.

I also have the CFS and piss poor concentration. I also have PSSD, which decimated my libido and sexual functioning. From the research it sounds like this is all lasts indefinitely.

Since the PSSD, I've tried all sorts of supplements to try and build a libido but nothing really works. The only thing that made me remotely horny was r-andro which is a reduced form of DHEA and converts to DHT.

Anyways, there are a lot of smart people on this forum so you should get some good advice. Aside from focusing on diet, be sure to be exercising and getting sunlight as much as possible. I believe much of the issues that SSRIs leave are due to neurosteroids. Coincidentally, many people with PSSD have low levels of LH and FSH. I have been keeping an eye on the PFS threads here as well.

I also recommend getting a full hormone panel and TSH, T3/T4, reverse T3 to get a baseline.

 

[Johnson Bagfoot]

Hi all,

I was extremely dizzy today, blacked out and had to go to hospital. I got picked up in an ambulance. Heart, blood sugar, etc, was okay. I heard them call my temperature as 96.1

I told them my history and symptoms. They suggested to get thyroid/endocrine investigated. Other symptoms not mentioned are also frequent urination, hair loss,

Mirroring what you are all suggesting.

I know a guy who has done that and has overcome his diabetes.

Denise Minger reckons that there are 2 extreme diets that seem optimal. Either your ketogenic high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet OR a low fat, low protein, high carb diet. The low fat has to be < 10%.

Perhaps we have a winter metabolism and a summer metabolism.

Denise suspects that trying to combine both at once leads to health issues:

In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

I haven't seen diet make a big difference in my condition yet. The theory is probably close to the truth though. There are differences in tolerance.

About a year ago, my friend took up 200mg of aspirin each day with his coffee as a replacement antidepressant when he came off his SSRI's! He was on Aropax for approx 15 years then Escitalopram for 5 years.

His sleep apnoea seems to have gone if he sleeps on his side. He discovered this when his latest CPAP machine (breathing aid) died while on warranty!

Not sure how this is relevant?

Hi Johnson, When I've been especially down, drinking extra coffee has been very helpful for my mood and energy I used to and still do occasionally drink a half gallon of very strong coffee. Coffee is very helpful in lowering serotonin as well provided you have it with food and coffee increases the metabolic rate. You may also want to have some thyroid labs done and post these to the forum, your low pulse is a sign you are likely hypothyroid. sorry to hear you're having some issues, I think most of these you will overcome if you can get your metabolic rate up, it's very clear you are having low energy symptoms and these are tied in with the metabolism. I would be cautious with fasting since it tends to lower the metabolic rate and can cause other issues like elevating free fatty acids.

I have zero tolerance to caffeine. Even a tiny bit makes me incredible jittery and triggers "fight or flight mode", it feels very much like I've swallowed some poison.

I will definitely get thyroids done and post them up.

I feel for you man. You sound very very depleted.

The meditation thing spiked my interest because I was a big meditator for four years or so, twice a day, mantra, etc. it really does NOT help stabilization in the long term in my experience. At least not how most people teach it.

If I were you man I'd look into getting some NDT, and then I would start consuming liver everyday or every other day and 4-6 egg yolks a day. The egg whites might be too stimulating. The NDT will really help with the everything is stimulating to you. I know this from personal experience. But you'll be back to square one without enough nutrients in about 2 weeks to a month on NDT.

Let me know if you try it so I know if it works for others and not just me.

Yes depleted is definitely the word. I feel like I'm hanging on to life by the fingernails, and yet tests so far have come back okay. Yes I'm aware that meditation can be quite deststabilising, I agree, it should carry a warning label much like medicines do.

What's NDT? And what does liver contain that will be useful? Is gelatin also useful in the same way?

I found that a couple of weeks on Tianeptine was very helpful in permanently getting off an SSRI drug.
After that, diet and nutrition were enough to keep things good. Notably, fat solubles (A, E, K2) and B vitamins.

I have extremely bad reactions to the last few pharmaceuticals I've taken, so I want to stay away for now. K2 MK4 also seems to trigger fight or flight, not sure why?

Taurine and clonidine, give them a try.

high dose pregnenolone for the mental effects

These seem premature before I know more precisely what's wrong? I've had a very bad reaction to many substances and don't want to make myself worse.

Or could you explain more how it might help or be safe in my instance? I'm curious about the biochemistry.

I say stop the IF immediately.
U need constant steady good supply of sugars.
You must keep your blood sugar up to calm your adrenals down....to stop the adrenaline and fight or flight feeling u describe.
Also, I would back off on all the supplements to ease up on your liver.
Also, I would say no exercise except for nature walks.
U need to address your diet and nutrition first. Doing the low carb keto diet u state u r doing is a bigger issue than post SSRI effects. Eat carbs/sugars to heal.

I've had a high sugar diet before, lots of milk, etc, it didnt seem to improve my symptoms, I would just crash harder?

-Johnson

 

[Cymatic]

You could also try pansterone and niacinimide. I agree that your symptoms sound like you're continuosly crashing into a stress state from a compromised liver. Niacinimide and carbs should help you store some more energy and stabilize you.

Oh and stop the IF too