Nicotine Is An Anti-Depressant And Reverses Learned Helplessness

[Parsifal]

Why don't you write to Peat Drareg to ask him what he really thinks about nicotine by giving some studies of Dopaminergic? Would be interesting.

 

[Drareg]

I believe Haidut promotes methylene blue not Peat... I may be wrong though my point was that we advocate many substances that he has never directly recommended or acknowledged. Your posts here have done nothing but stir up controversy which is fine if you actually had substance behind your claims. You have failed to back up any of your claims... Nicotine is severely addictive, Nicotine is comparable to cocaine, Nicotine causes severe withdrawals... empty claims until you can back them up. You are just scaring people away from the topic hence my claim of fear mongering.

What would be better and more constructive is if you stopped creating strawmans.

You have a consistent refusal to engage any other point of view, you only engage discussion if everyone agrees with you. When they don't you post like The above.
You make claims you're right,there your personal claims.

I have given clear examples in your nicotine threads of the questions you have just asked. There is no fear mongering, this topic has been engaged many times on the forum.
Your nicotine spam creates the illusion that Ray Peat is recommending nicotine, he currently recommends better adaptive substance that is A safer hdac inhibitor and cannot induce severe withdrawals.

Most people who post do not try to sound like they have all the facts,nor do they ignore research or others opinions, they don't blatantly claim then have seen no evidence to the contrary. Nor do they react like you when people post contrary evidence, most don't claim they don't care what Peat thinks for that matter, if his adapting paradigm/understanding is not used the forum will be chaos.

 

[Drareg]

Why don't you write to Peat Drareg to ask him what he really thinks about nicotine by giving some studies of Dopaminergic? Would be interesting.

He already writes about it, there is a lot of discussion on here about it.
He probably knows there is more to come on nicotine research. The hdac inhibiting effect is one thing to note.

 

[Dopamine]

Nicotine as an Antidepressant?

"In the study, the researchers recruited 11 people who did not smoke but who were experiencing symptoms of depression. Participants were randomly assigned to wear either a nicotine patch or a placebo patch that did not contain any nicotine. The researchers used a standardized method, a 20-item questionnaire called the Center for Epidemiological Studies Depression scale, to measure depression symptoms among the study participants.

The team found that participants who wore the nicotine patch for at least eight days experienced a significant decline in their depression-assessment rating scores. McClernon said this finding indicates that the drug led to an improvement in depression symptoms."

 

[Dopamine]

I should add that the human dosage for the first study I posted is ~.243mg/kg which for me at 75kg= 18mg nicotine per day.

 

[Luke768]

I personally have been using nicotine for about 3 weeks now, in the form of an inhaler.
Initially I wanted to use it for it's nootropic/stimulant effect to help me with studying as I have chronic fatigue and study a STEM subject.
I wake with joint pain most day, and I've found nicotine not only reduces the pain, but also boosts my motivation, focus, lifts my constant brain fog (although not on every use) and relieves my feeling of helplessness to learn the content on my course.
I am a non smoker and do not find pure nicotine any more addictive than coffee (which i can no longer drink as it causes me intense joint pain). I find the times I have tried a cigarette (maybe 10 pulls in my life) have given a much bigger kick/rush than pure nicotine via the inhaler, and also causes a less clear/clean feeling.
I do not know about the physiologic effects of nicotine but I have had a very good experience with it so far.

I also like niacinamide high doses a lot, and have tried theanine, cypro and tianeptine with good results, although cypro makes me drowsy. Taurine doesn't do anything for me that I have noticed.

I'm currently trying thyroid (American biologics) which I am probably taking too much of (4 tablets a day spaced out) but I can't really 'feel' the effect as much as the instant lift of nicotine. Would taking more be a bad idea? My pulse is around 103 normally (was 115 as a child) but I'm cold sensitive. (Sorry to change the subject, if anybody knows a post addressing this please direct me?)

 

[jyb]

You continually ignore the hdac inhibitor implication.

"hdac inhibitor implication"? Niacinamide is a massive hdac inhibitor. Why are we still rigidly talking about hdac inhibition like it was a new buzzword?

 

[CoolTweetPete]

I believe Haidut promotes methylene blue not Peat... I may be wrong though my point was that we advocate many substances that he has never directly recommended or acknowledged. Your posts here have done nothing but stir up controversy which is fine if you actually had substance behind your claims. You have failed to back up any of your claims... Nicotine is severely addictive, Nicotine is comparable to cocaine, Nicotine causes severe withdrawals... empty claims until you can back them up. You are just scaring people away from the topic hence my claim of fear mongering.

I'm fairly certain Dr. Peat wrote an entire newsletter about the potential benefits of Methylene Blue.

I use topical nicotine 1-2x per week. I notice a nice creative and metabolic boost. I've never been a regular (tobacco) smoker, but I don't notice any craving.

 

[Dopamine]

I personally have been using nicotine for about 3 weeks now, in the form of an inhaler.
Initially I wanted to use it for it's nootropic/stimulant effect to help me with studying as I have chronic fatigue and study a STEM subject.
I wake with joint pain most day, and I've found nicotine not only reduces the pain, but also boosts my motivation, focus, lifts my constant brain fog (although not on every use) and relieves my feeling of helplessness to learn the content on my course.
I am a non smoker and do not find pure nicotine any more addictive than coffee. I find the times I have tried a cigarette (maybe 10 pulls in my life) have given a much bigger kick/rush than pure nicotine via the inhaler, and also causes a less clear/clean feeling.
I do not know about the physiologic effects of nicotine but I have had a very good experience with it so far.
I also like niacinamide high doses a lot, and have tried theanine, cypro and tianeptine with good results, although cypro makes me drowsy.
I'm currently trying thyroid (American biologics) which I am probably taking too much of (4 tablets a day spaced out) but I can't really 'feel' the effect as much of the instant lift of nicotine. Would taking more be a bad idea? (Sorry to change the subject)

That's good to hear. I have started experimenting with topical nicotine e-juice and also vaping with good results so far in boosting my dopamine pathways (It is also extremely cheap). Niacinamide and theanine are GABA agonists- I find stimulants and GABA agonists go well together because GABA agonists help prevent stress hormone/FFA release from the stimulants.

I think your joint pain and fatigue are from high lactic acid, inflammation, and inefficient glucose metabolism (stress in general):

"The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. Factors that lower the stress hormones, increase carbon dioxide, and help to lower the circulating free fatty acids, lactate, and ammonia, include vitamin B1 (to increase CO2 and reduce lactate), niacinamide (to reduce free fatty acids), sugar (to reduce cortisol, adrenaline, and free fatty acids), salt (to lower adrenaline), thyroid hormone (to increase CO2). Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

I would keep using the niacinamide and also thiamine and aspirin would probaly help you.

I don't know if you should raise your thyroid dose, you may want to try some other things first. A pro thyroid diet is obviously very important. I don't know much about thyroid dosing so maybe someone else can chime in and help you out.

 

[Dopamine]

I'm fairly certain Dr. Peat wrote an entire newsletter about the potential benefits of Methylene Blue.

I use topical nicotine 1-2x per week. I notice a nice creative and metabolic boost. I've never been a regular (tobacco) smoker, but I don't notice any craving.

Yes I know that now, my point was that just because Peat hasn't talked very much about something doesn't mean it's not worth looking at. Peat has recommended nicotine for older people before to prevent cognitive decline which suggests that he is at least open to the idea of its use. Many things are used on this forum that Peat hasn't presented a detailed opinion on.

I started using nicotine topically today so I will see how it goes- good so far

Here are some notes on topical nicotine administration that may be of interest:

Nicotine Chemistry, Metabolism, Kinetics and Biomarkers
"Nicotine base is well absorbed through skin. That is the reason for the occupational risk of nicotine poisoning (green tobacco sickness) in tobacco harvesters who are exposed to wet tobacco leaves (McBride et al. 1998). That is also the basis for transdermal delivery technology."

"Rates of nicotine delivery and plasma nicotine concentrations vary among different transdermal systems (Fant et al. 2000). In all cases, there is an initial lag time of about 1 h before nicotine appears in the bloodstream, and there is continued systemic absorption (about 10% of the total dose) after the patch is removed, the latter due to residual nicotine in the skin."

Transdermal delivery of nicotine in normal human volunteers: a single dose and multiple dose study - Springer
Absorption of nicotine from the trans dermal system was 80–90%

 

[Drareg]

"hdac inhibitor implication"? Niacinamide is a massive hdac inhibitor. Why are we still rigidly talking about hdac inhibition like it was a new buzzword?

Read through the thread and see the points made, they are clear,it's pointless for you to quote one post from me and comment on it without context in mind. You would also see niacinamide has been discussed along with half life etc

There is nothing rigid whatsoever or any use of a buzzword, hdac inhibition and epigentics are hardly buzzwords.

Questioning the rigidity of talking about hdac inhibition like its a new buzzword makes no sense, what are you getting at here?

 

[Dopamine]

Read through the thread and see the points made, they are clear,it's pointless for you to quote one post from me and comment on it without context in mind. You would also see niacinamide has been discussed along with half life etc

There is nothing rigid whatsoever or any use of a buzzword, hdac inhibition and epigentics are hardly buzzwords.

Questioning the rigidity of talking about hdac inhibition like its a new buzzword makes no sense, what are you getting at here?

You have made nothing clear as to why you are so hung up on HDAC inhibition... whats the big deal? Many Peaty substances are also HDAC inhibitors like niacinamide, caffeine, biotin, and vitamin e metabolites... I thought this was a good thing.

When you look at the big picture you see chronic nicotine lowering pituitary hormones like prolactin, lowering serotonin, raising neurosteroids like pregnenolone and progesterone, raising dopamine, increasing cognition, treating depression/cognitive decline/ADHD etc... Nicotine has systemic benefits reminiscent of caffeine but it stands apart as a unique substance in its own right. I would consider nicotine likely more effective at raising dopamine than caffeine for one thing...

Why is nicotine being a HDAC inhibitor a bad thing? You have not made your opinion very clear.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

I think as long as its used sparingly, it is a great tool for short bursts of metabolic enhancement. I don't know that Drareg's claim of addictive potential and withdrawal symptoms would necessarily apply if used this way.

 

[Drareg]

I have made it very clear my understanding of hdac inhibition, it's limited like many others on here, there is no hang up,just you using words to attempt to discredit facts in front of you.
you jump through the same mental hoops when it is put to you about its half life.

Pretty much everything is effecting Dna methylation ,hdac inhibition etc, Ray Peat has mentioned some and you have above, the difference with what he recommended is the half life and potency.
These withdrawals will get more difficult to handle as stress increases.
if all the substance you mentioned does what nicotine does the question begs, why bother with nicotine when the half life is 2 hours at best and other substance last longer.

My guess is males in particular are getting the adrenalin effect from it and seeing this as a positive, initially you get the positives and as it leaves the system adrenalin kicks in, if it was the other way round,you got adrenalin first and then the positive you would be less inclined to take it.
You are perceiving the adrenalin response differently because of the initial positives , you have told yourself there is no withdrawal and what you are feeling is a positive energy buzz from nicotine,less inclined to panic.

Adrenalin stream of consciousness is Popular these days, it's also seen as more pop social. Mania. It's cool to behave crazy and mad.

 

[Drareg]

I think as long as its used sparingly, it is a great tool for short bursts of metabolic enhancement. I don't know that Drareg's claim of addictive potential and withdrawal symptoms would necessarily apply if used this way.

You answered your own question.

 

[jyb]

Read through the thread and see the points made, they are clear,it's pointless for you to quote one post from me and comment on it without context in mind. You would also see niacinamide has been discussed along with half life etc

Half life? Nicotine is a few hours and cotinine, it's metabolite, is more than that. Coffee and niacinamide is a few hours too, a bit more than nicotine smoked but similar to nicotine delivered through other routes. I still don't see why that's relevant at all, though, because it just means you have to take more or less of caffeine or nicotine to achieve a given quantity after a given amount of hours.

 

[Luann]

i do one or two cigarettes a week, and as long as I don't start "smoking" it's not a big deal, also it feels good. End of story (in my case).

 

[CoolTweetPete]

You answered your own question.

Didn't ask one, now who's the strawman?

In all seriousness, I think you guys agree on more than you disagree on here.

 

[Drareg]

Half life? Nicotine is a few hours and cotinine, it's metabolite, is more than that. Coffee and niacinamide is a few hours too, a bit more than nicotine smoked but similar to nicotine delivered through other routes. I still don't see why that's relevant at all, though, because it just means you have to take more or less of caffeine or nicotine to achieve a given quantity after a given amount of hours.

This is the generic response you both give, questions have been put on cotinine. When old threads start up its likely to take this course.
The least you could do is accept the facts in front of you instead of using the term a few hours. Earlier in the thread this was discussed on half lives.

If you want to smoke or use nicotine people are welcome to it, ignoring the evidence however is pointless Imo, it's being discussed on here before about cannabis smokers justifying it with a culture around it, nicotine use is no different at the moment with e cigarettes and pre workout associations creating their own culture.

 

[Dopamine]

I think as long as its used sparingly, it is a great tool for short bursts of metabolic enhancement. I don't know that Drareg's claim of addictive potential and withdrawal symptoms would necessarily apply if used this way.

It's best used chronically though ie everyday... just like caffeine. Caffeine has addictive potential and causes withdrawals also... Many of the benefits of nicotine come from chronic use and chronic adaptation. The negative effects- prolactin/ffa/stress raises/angiogenesis do not generally occur with chronic use (unless already under high stress) but can occur with acute use especially when administered with low blood sugar... caffeine is the same way. Haidut posted a study showing adaptations to caffeine take place within 4 days, nicotine is the same- I found I adapted within 1-2 days. Adaptations begin after the 1st administration... The body already has become desensitized to prolactin after first administration and subsequent doses for 24h show progressively lowered prolactin. I can find the study if you want it. This is why chronic nicotine users have much lower prolactin levels...

if all the substance you mentioned does what nicotine does the question begs, why bother with nicotine when the half life is 2 hours at best and other substance last longer.

They don't do what nicotine does... you are blantantly ignoring the positive benefits of nicotine while getting hung up on HDAC inhibition.

You did not address my statement:

When you look at the big picture you see chronic nicotine lowering pituitary hormones like prolactin, lowering serotonin, raising neurosteroids like pregnenolone and progesterone, raising dopamine, increasing cognition, treating depression/cognitive decline/ADHD etc... Nicotine has systemic benefits reminiscent of caffeine but it stands apart as a unique substance in its own right. I would consider nicotine likely more effective at raising dopamine than caffeine for one thing...

Countless beneficial effects... and nicotine is declared worthless in your eyes just because it is a HDAC inhibitor and has a short half life? The main metabolite of nicotine (cotinine) has a half life of 16-19 hours anyway making your short half-life point mute. You can just take nicotine several times a day anyway... big deal. I have to eat several times a day too.

Ray talks about addiction. How we become addicted to substances because they make up for a deficit in our physiology. I posted studies showing pregnenolone and progesterone administration lessen withdrawals to opiates and benzos and studies showing nicotine self administration decreases during pregnancy (due to higher physiological progesterone). So addictive potential is dependent on capacity to fill a need or make up for a deficit. Once this void is decreased with healthy thyroid and nutrition- the void should lessen and need for the drug will decrease. This makes sense as you see the people most heavily addicted to smoking are schizophrenics, depressives, anxiety suffers etc... those suffering from high serotonin and low dopamine... those who benefit most from nicotine's serotonin lowering and dopamine boosting effects. Nicotine is perceived as a tool to make up for their physiological disfunction and it is used/abused as such.

I think anything in this light can be seen as addictive so long as it is perceived as helpful or necessary to our condition. Food can be seen as addictive. We need to get this fix continuously and we suffer when we don't. Food (just like nicotine) satisfies a particular need, if we eliminate the need then we eliminate the addiction. It is foolish to eliminate an addiction without simultaneously fixing the underlying need that it was patching over- this leads to withdrawals.

My guess is males in particular are getting the adrenalin effect from it and seeing this as a positive, initially you get the positives and as it leaves the system adrenalin kicks in, if it was the other way round,you got adrenalin first and then the positive you would be less inclined to take it.

Your guess is incorrect:

"Smoking may alter physiological systems involved in the stress response. Smokers show attenuated (Lowered) cortisol and systolic blood pressure response to acute stressors when compared to nonsmokers. The extent to which absent cortisol response is due to an enhanced negative feedback caused by the higher basal cortisol concentrations or to attenuated sensitivity to stress-related physiological activation is not yet clear. Potential central mechanisms involved in the altered stress response include a reduction in the number or affinity of receptors mediating effects of nicotine in different central nervous system structures that integrate the neuroendocrine stress response (al'Absi et al., 2003). Chronic nicotine consumption may also lead to lower responses of other stress hormones (ACTH, prolactin, growth hormone) to a variety of stimuli (Kirschbaum et al., 1994)."

Now some smokers have been shown to have higher basal cortisol levels- keyword "smokers." tobacco contains MAO inhibitors which raise cortisol levels independent from nicotine. Also there are many other components in cigarettes that have been shown to raise cortisol independent from nicotine (like carbon monoxide).

Smoking, cortisol and nicotine. - PubMed - NCBI
"These results suggest that the nicotine supplied through patches was not sufficient to block the cortisol reduction following smoking cessation."

In this study when smokers quit smoking- basal cortisol levels decreased. Administering nicotine did not stop the cortisol decrease suggesting that something else in the cigarettes is raising cortisol...

You can offset acute stress effects from stimulants anyways with salt, sugar, GABA agonists, B6, B3 etc...

Also to be clear I don't recommend cigarettes. Nicotine is another story.