Nicotine Is An Anti-Depressant And Reverses Learned Helplessness

[Dopamine]

I will say that personally nicotine hasn't been working well for me. It is hit or miss- sometimes I feel pretty good, most of the time it raises stress and makes me feel worse shortly after dosing. Keep in mind I am really low body-fat, anxious, running on adrenaline and cortisol all the time so I don't think more stimulation is something good for me right now.

I have had much more success with GABA agonists and substances like aspirin and niacinamide to lower free fatty acids. I have a shipment of supplements coming in so I will see what works for my depression/anxiety and what makes things worse. I feel like nicotine has its benefits but its not working for me with my present situation.

 

[tyw]

What does that make you feel like, tyw?

Pretty alert most of the time, not much other side effects at lower doses (which for me, literally means <10mg).

High dose nicotine (like 10mg at one go) will make me feel jittery and slightly light-headed. The effects are obviously strong.

I will say that personally nicotine hasn't been working well for me. It is hit or miss- sometimes I feel pretty good, most of the time it raises stress and makes me feel worse shortly after dosing. Keep in mind I am really low body-fat, anxious, running on adrenaline and cortisol all the time so I don't think more stimulation is something good for me right now.

I have had much more success with GABA agonists and substances like aspirin and niacinamide to lower free fatty acids. I have a shipment of supplements coming in so I will see what works for my depression/anxiety and what makes things worse. I feel like nicotine has its benefits but its not working for me with my present situation.

Yes, it is powerful drug . Use with caution, and you're correct to back off if perceived negative symptoms occur.

Stress states will affect nicotine processing, as will liver health on that particular day (the liver is still where the nicotine -> cotinine conversion takes place)

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More generally, is nicotine a "required drug" in the sense that "does it give a lot of benefit if tolerated". Personally, I would say, NO.

Some benefits, maybe, and if tolerated, it's actually pretty good at raising one out of "depressive scenarios". But I view it like Cannabis -- sometimes therapeutic, but not needed if you're not in a SPECIFICALLY compromised state to begin with.

(Sidenote: and while we're on the topic, NO, I do not advocate the smoking of Cannabis. If anything, the most benefit comes from non-heated, and therefore non-psychoactive Cannabis. Oral heat-treated cannabis is probably less harmful than any lung-based delivery, but still, not strictly needed for therapeutic benefit -- unless "therapy" includes fun times while high)​

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[CoolTweetPete]

@tyw Doesn't cannabis need to be heat treated in order to extract CBD (the compound being reputed as the most beneficial for pain) from the plant? From what I understood, eating unheated marijuana doesn't produce any tangible effect. I think I even did this a while back to check

 

[tyw]

@tyw Doesn't cannabis need to be heat treated in order to extract CBD (the compound being reputed as the most beneficial for pain) from the plant? From what I understood, eating unheated marijuana doesn't produce any tangible effect. I think I even did this a while back to check

NOTE: I have ZERO experience with Cannabis, and will have zero for as long as I remain in Australia . So everything I say is based on second-hand accounts of people I know, and from research.

I also have not studied this area that much, since it really isn't of practical use to me where I am.

The initial video that got me thinking about the topic was this one by Dr William Courtney, who recommended Raw-only consumption.



The recommended dose is 500-600mg of CBD acid (CBDa, the non-heated form). This is probably best by drinking a raw smoothies with a set portion raw cannabis leaves.

Note: It takes just 10mg of THC to get really really high (which is most strains will only get you anywhere from 5-20mg of CBD). It could be a case where the dose in your case was simply not high enough.

Also note, that the CBD to THC ratio also makes a difference in therapeutic outcomes. In general, cannabis contains anywhere from a 2:1 to 1:2 ratio of CBD:THC-acid. Personally, I do not have enough knowledge to comment on specific strains and their ratios

As usual, I'll trust each individual to be responsible for doing what works best for themselves


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Onto the more interesting and speculatory (SPECULATORY!) Information not directly related to your comment

I came across this paper awhile back -- Phosphene phenomenon: A new concept' -- http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.377.2281&rep=rep1&type=pdf

This talks about how Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) and Reactive Nitrogen Species (RNS) can stimulate weak biophoton emissions at reaction sites.

It then talks briefly about how psychedelic compounds induce formation of these ROS and RNS. We can make an argument that one of the reasons "harmful psychedelics" are harmful is because they flood the body with too great a ROS/RNS signal.

"Good psychedelics" provide for controlled ROS/RNS signalling.

An implication of that paper even suggests that all the psychedelic effects are just a by-product of the huge burst of biophoton activity that you get when you take these compounds.


There is more evidence to suggest that cannabis works by producing ROS in the appropriate cells to re-establish cellular signalling, while decreasing ROS production in other cells (see papers below). This would normalise the ROS response to "tune the system to work together".

Again, note that mitochondria produce varying amounts of ROS during regulator metabolism (mostly at Complex 3 during forward-flow ECT, which should be the normal state of affairs if you follow the principles off this community. Search for the paper 'How Mitochondria Produce Reactive Oxygen Species' for details).

That last paragraph is a key point, in the sense that simulating ROS production is almost like a "signal that respiration has occurred". Ideally you'd do this with good metabolism alone, which why I say Cannabis is "not needed" if metabolism is already good.

Chemical reduction of ROS induces light emission at the site of reaction, which transmits information at the site of reaction, and probably has cascading effects to other cells. The most direct effects are local to mitochondria, where you see increased ROS combined with reduced membrane potential leading to things like the shutting down of insulin sensitivity (specific to that cell).

The additinoal "systemic intelligence" effects I then think are apparent from the work of Guenther Albretch-Buehler (http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/cellint0.htm). Mae-Wan Ho may call this improvements in "organisational coherence"

Anyway, some studies that talk about this effect of Cannabis compounds:

- Control over Macrophage ROS production -- CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptors differentially regulate the production of reactive oxygen species by macrophages | Cardiovascular Research

- Reduction of Oxidative Load on rat PC12 neural cells -- Neuroprotective effect of cannabidiol, a non-psychoactive component from Cannabis sativa, on β-amyloid-induced toxicity in PC12 cells - Iuvone - 2004 - Journal of Neurochemistry - Wiley Online Library

- Killing malfunctioning cells with ROS over-production -- Cannabidiol-Induced Apoptosis in Human Leukemia Cells: A Novel Role of Cannabidiol in the Regulation of p22phox and Nox4 Expression

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Again, this logic would indicate that cannabis is not useful for people who already have good bio-energetic function (other than to have a good time :p -- which I fully support BTW)

Use of such compounds DOES NOT "add energy to the system". They help re-establish signalling between components. Energy-additive, metabolism supporting behaviours must be performed in conjunction with these compounds.

This would also imply that overdosing on such compounds is basically an ROS overdose. The net effect I cannot say -- depends on the person's individual ability to deal with ROS.

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Again, remember that this is only my speculation based on stuff I've read . Actual epidemiological studies actually show decent health improvements (like insulin sensitivity) with Marijuana use, but again, I like to try and talk mechanics if possible.

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[CoolTweetPete]

Thanks for that @tyw

I am interested in the idea that a marijuana would not be "needed" in cases where someone's energetic state is maintained by a good metabolism. This is something Danny Roddy actually told me before and I scoffed at him, lol.

But as I've improved my metabolism over the last year, I have found this to be more and more true. Now when I smoke, I feel like I'm using it more recreationally rather than scratching an itch.

 

[Drareg]

Thanks for that @tyw

I am interested in the idea that a marijuana would not be "needed" in cases where someone's energetic state is maintained by a good metabolism. This is something Danny Roddy actually told me before and I scoffed at him, lol.

But as I've improved my metabolism over the last year, I have found this to be more and more true. Now when I smoke, I feel like I'm using it more recreationally rather than scratching an itch.

Their are quotes from Peat on it if you search the forum.
He acknowledges the pro's but unfortunately the cons are estrogenic sides I believe, kind of like alcohol, Peat sees the value of mall amounts for inflammation but doesn't shy away from acknowledging the estrogenic sides.

Remember too what the French research uncovered,pregnenolone increases to block the THC receptor, the THC has to be high content for this to happen, most modern strains are potent. It seems pregnenolone is playing a major role in cannabis vibes. The study is on the forum somewhere.

 

[Drareg]

I will say that personally nicotine hasn't been working well for me. It is hit or miss- sometimes I feel pretty good, most of the time it raises stress and makes me feel worse shortly after dosing. Keep in mind I am really low body-fat, anxious, running on adrenaline and cortisol all the time so I don't think more stimulation is something good for me right now.

I have had much more success with GABA agonists and substances like aspirin and niacinamide to lower free fatty acids. I have a shipment of supplements coming in so I will see what works for my depression/anxiety and what makes things worse. I feel like nicotine has its benefits but its not working for me with my present situation.

You should try lithium, it's sides are brain fogginess, effects thyroid in higher doses, obviously salt is similar but requires a lot, lithium seems more potent. To offset the brain fog you could use thiamine. It's a short term experiment to determine if adrenalin is the main issue.
You could also explore taurine in high doses for adrenalin, you would have to offset the prolactin effect however.
Nicotine with either of these substances should paint an interesting picture, it lowers prolactin, should offset brain fog.
Short term experiment would be the reasonable way forward.

Aspirin and niacinamide are involved with adrenalin I believe, niacinamide is a co factor, Im not sure they specifically stop adrenalin? Lower free fatty acids they do, stopping overactive adrenalin specifically I'm not so sure.
I'm confused on this at the moment,need more research.

 

[Dopamine]

You should try lithium, it's sides are brain fogginess, effects thyroid in higher doses, obviously salt is similar but requires a lot, lithium seems more potent. To offset the brain fog you could use thiamine. It's a short term experiment to determine if adrenalin is the main issue.
You could also explore taurine in high doses for adrenalin, you would have to offset the prolactin effect however.
Nicotine with either of these substances should paint an interesting picture, it lowers prolactin, should offset brain fog.
Short term experiment would be the reasonable way forward.

Aspirin and niacinamide are involved with adrenalin I believe, niacinamide is a co factor, Im not sure they specifically stop adrenalin? Lower free fatty acids they do, stopping overactive adrenalin specifically I'm not so sure.
I'm confused on this at the moment,need more research.

Thanks- I am planning on trying taurine, glycine, theanine, and more lysine so I will see how it goes. I think my problem is high cortisol because I feel terrible in the morning and better in the afternoon corresponding with cortisol fluctuations. I might try lithium I'll have to look into it more.

 

[Luke768]

That's good to hear. I have started experimenting with topical nicotine e-juice and also vaping with good results so far in boosting my dopamine pathways (It is also extremely cheap). Niacinamide and theanine are GABA agonists- I find stimulants and GABA agonists go well together because GABA agonists help prevent stress hormone/FFA release from the stimulants.

I think your joint pain and fatigue are from high lactic acid, inflammation, and inefficient glucose metabolism (stress in general):

"The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. Factors that lower the stress hormones, increase carbon dioxide, and help to lower the circulating free fatty acids, lactate, and ammonia, include vitamin B1 (to increase CO2 and reduce lactate), niacinamide (to reduce free fatty acids), sugar (to reduce cortisol, adrenaline, and free fatty acids), salt (to lower adrenaline), thyroid hormone (to increase CO2). Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

I would keep using the niacinamide and also thiamine and aspirin would probaly help you.

I don't know if you should raise your thyroid dose, you may want to try some other things first. A pro thyroid diet is obviously very important. I don't know much about thyroid dosing so maybe someone else can chime in and help you out.

Thanks a lot! I'm going to try everything you just recommended :).

 

[CoolTweetPete]

@Drareg

Thanks. I think I have seen that as well. IIRC he talks about the estrogenicity of smoking anything. I dont see how people can claim inhaling combustion products, even of marijuana, is innocuous.

 

[lvysaur]

A question for anyone who takes nicotine: What are its qualitative subjective effects, especially as compared to those of caffeine?

I always take caffeine (as coffee) in the morning, and it has a very relaxing energetic effect.

 

[DaveFoster]

Can we re-open the nicotine can? I'm curious to note any experiences with it. Personally, I find it's marvelously stimulative, moreso than caffeine, and in a less direct, more uncomfortable way (buzzing).

 

[Herbie]

So if your addicted to something you have learned helplessness right?

So does nicotine cause learned helplessness or has the person them selfs already learned helplessness?

Ps Ray mensions MB in a KMUD episode

 

[papaya]

So if your addicted to something you have learned helplessness right?

So does nicotine cause learned helplessness or has the person them selfs already learned helplessness?

Ps Ray mensions MB in a KMUD episode

it sounds to me like nicotine is more of a cure for learned helplessness. maybe the repetitive action of actually smoking the cig could cause learned helplessness? is mb methylene blue? if so, does ray say it helps with learned helplessness?

 

[Herbie]

it sounds to me like nicotine is more of a cure for learned helplessness. maybe the repetitive action of actually smoking the cig could cause learned helplessness? is mb methylene blue? if so, does ray say it helps with learned helplessness?

I never smoked as a teenager as I was made to believe it was very bad for health and that people who smoked were weak and to be looked down on. I remember that smokers would say smoking relaxes me, it helps me calm down when I get stressed from life circumstances. I remember non smokers saying smokers say they need a smoke to calm them down why don't they just stop smoking then they won't get stressed as they believe the stress is a result of nicotine and smokers are slaves to nicotine.

I started smoking a few months ago at the age of 29 and I feel the more stressed I am the better the experience of the cigarette for example I recently completed a 15 hour international flight in economy class and when I got off the flight I had a cigarette it and made me feel a lot better. If I didn't have the cigarette I would be stuck in the stressed state for longer.

From my experience I think the person has learned helplessness separate from smoking and that smoking therapeutic for them and is an aid to managing stress and I see amount of smoking as a gauge for stress. The more cigarettes I feel like smoking the more stressed I am and need to consider changing my environment.

Dopamine wrote that he knows Haidut promotes methylene blue and wasn't sure if Ray did and Ive herd ray speak about it in a kmud episode.

 

[papaya]

I never smoked as a teenager as I was made to believe it was very bad for health and that people who smoked were weak and to be looked down on. I remember that smokers would say smoking relaxes me, it helps me calm down when I get stressed from life circumstances. I remember non smokers saying smokers say they need a smoke to calm them down why don't they just stop smoking then they won't get stressed as they believe the stress is a result of nicotine and smokers are slaves to nicotine.

I started smoking a few months ago at the age of 29 and I feel the more stressed I am the better the experience of the cigarette for example I recently completed a 15 hour international flight in economy class and when I got off the flight I had a cigarette it and made me feel a lot better. If I didn't have the cigarette I would be stuck in the stressed state for longer.

From my experience I think the person has learned helplessness separate from smoking and that smoking therapeutic for them and is an aid to managing stress and I see amount of smoking as a gauge for stress. The more cigarettes I feel like smoking the more stressed I am and need to consider changing my environment.

Dopamine wrote that he knows Haidut promotes methylene blue and wasn't sure if Ray did and Ive herd ray speak about it in a kmud episode.

wow, thanks for the info. i've never smoked, but i am considering trying nicotine gum to help with my add, & my procrastination issues. i take methylene blue only when i'm getting sick, maybe i should be taking it more often.

 

[Herbie]

Thats ok,

I haven't tried the methylene blue yet but have read the many positives of using it.

I was in the Amazon jungle a few years ago with some elder native medicine men and they smoked tobacco and said that it was protective for them.

I still don't know if tobacco/nicotine is good or bad for health but i do enjoy the experience of it.

 

[papaya]

Thats ok,

I haven't tried the methylene blue yet but have read the many positives of using it.

I was in the Amazon jungle a few years ago with some elder native medicine men and they smoked tobacco and said that it was protective for them.

I still don't know if tobacco/nicotine is good or bad for health but i do enjoy the experience of it.

I definitely recommend mb if you feel like you're getting sick. It really works. I feel like I've heard that before abt tobacco. Smoking tho is very bad for the lungs, plus all of the other chemicals. I wonder if eating tobacco leaves would be better than nicotine gum?

 

[DaveFoster]

I posted studies showing pregnenolone and progesterone administration lessen withdrawals to opiates and benzos and studies showing nicotine self administration decreases during pregnancy (due to higher physiological progesterone). So addictive potential is dependent on capacity to fill a need or make up for a deficit. Once this void is decreased with healthy thyroid and nutrition- the void should lessen and need for the drug will decrease. This makes sense as you see the people most heavily addicted to smoking are schizophrenics, depressives, anxiety suffers etc... those suffering from high serotonin and low dopamine... those who benefit most from nicotine's serotonin lowering and dopamine boosting effects. Nicotine is perceived as a tool to make up for their physiological disfunction and it is used/abused as such.

I completely agree; the dogmatic idea that nicotine causes depression and anxiety because tobacco users tend to have co-morbid mental illnesses should be rejected.

Niacinamide can probably reduce the need for nicotine, and the former lowers free fatty acids, rather than increases them.

A friend of mine has warned me about using nicotine in the morning before breakfast; it often leads to intense anxiety and nausea, so the nutritional context plays a role based upon this anecdote.

 

[Drareg]

I completely agree; the dogmatic idea that nicotine causes depression and anxiety because tobacco users tend to have co-morbid mental illnesses should be rejected.

Niacinamide can probably reduce the need for nicotine, and the former lowers free fatty acids, rather than increases them.

A friend of mine has warned me about using nicotine in the morning before breakfast; it often leads to intense anxiety and nausea, so the nutritional context plays a role based upon this anecdote.

Nicotine so effects on 3a-hsd are interesting to note,this study on dogs claims it blocked 3a-hsd which will stop DHT from breaking down into 3-diol.
They use the word "blocked" ,it's now shown that this enzyme has oxidative and reductive capabilities,nad+ keeps leaning toward the oxidative path.
It's discussed below.
5a-dehydroprogesterone And 3a- Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase

I'm currently looking at more studies on said enzyme,its expressed in skin and this was speculated to be the cause of dht having little effect for some as it was metabolised so fast,all speuclations but it seems if somebody does end high DHT as high relative to their original,status it could deplete nad+?

Nicotine and cotinine effects on 3 alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase in canine prostate. - PubMed - NCBI
"We have recently observed that cigarette smoking affects plasma androgen concentrations. The effects of nicotine and cotinine, two products of cigarette smoking, on testosterone metabolism were determined. The activity of delta 4 steroid 5 alpha-reductase, which converts testosterone to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) was measured in isolated dog prostate nuclei using testosterone (0-200 nM) as substrate and NADPH as cofactor. Activity of 3 alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (HSD), which converts DHT to 3 alpha-androstanediol (3 alpha-diol) and is a reversible enzyme, was measured in isolated dog prostate microsomes with DHT (0-20 microM) as substrate and NADPH as cofactor. When microsomal fractions were incubated for 1 hour with and without nicotine (0-50 microM) and cotinine (0-100 microM), enzyme activity of HSD was significantly suppressed (p less than 0.001). The Vmax was not affected significantly (p greater than 0.60) and Km increased with increasing concentrations of nicotine and cotinine (p less than 0.05). Both nicotine and cotinine are competitive inhibitors of HSD in dog prostate microsomes with Ki's of 61 and 89 microM, respectively. The apparent 5 alpha-reductase activity was unaffected by nicotine and cotinine. The inhibitors produced a marked effect on activity of HSD when used in concentrations achieved in humans who smoke cigarettes. The results suggest that nicotine and cotinine are competitive inhibitors of the HSD, an important enzyme involved in the metabolism of DHT and produce an accumulation of DHT. These products of cigarette smoking could alter androgen action in tissue such as skin and prostate."