My Nutritional Science Blog

[Kyle M]

http://www.nutricrinology.com/?p=185

 

[ecstatichamster]

thanks, very very awesome!!

 

[Let Go]

Great series so far, thanks!

 

[Kyle M]

Fat Stacks: The Unmitigated Success of Government Metabolic Health Research

 

[Kyle M]

Steve Bussinger, who I met at AHS16 after giving a talk about the dangers of being a fat burner, wanted to start a podcast with me. This is the first episode, it's called Nutrition Deconstructed:
Rhapsodizing

 

[Kyle M]

I am speaking at the Ancestral Health Symposium again, this time on insulin resistance and why it is not caused by sugar but rather by fatty acids and inflammation. The title is "Causes and Non-Causes of Insulin Resistance."
http://events.eventzilla.net/e/ancestral-health-symposium--ahs17-2138891941

 

[Let Go]

I am speaking at the Ancestral Health Symposium again, this time on insulin resistance and why it is not caused by sugar but rather by fatty acids and inflammation. The title is "Causes and Non-Causes of Insulin Resistance."
http://events.eventzilla.net/e/ancestral-health-symposium--ahs17-2138891941

What day are you speaking?

 

[Kyle M]

What day are you speaking?

Good question, I haven't received that info yet. I will update when I do.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Kyle M You wrote "The proximal cause of obesity is, of course, the organism storing energy substrate as fat in subcutaneous and visceral adipocytes and ectopically on muscle, rather than using it as energy or reducing intake."

The question is, where does that fat come from? It has to come from somewhere. And it has to become fat first in order to be stored. It's not protein that is stored inside fat cells, it's not sugar that is stored inside fat cells. It's fat. It's not simply energy substrate that is stored, it is fat that is stored in fat cells. So when looking at the only three energy substrates for humans, amino acids, fatty acids and monosaccharides and disaccharides, which of those are converted into fat, the thing that is stored in fat cells? Fatty acids are already fatty acids. They do not need to be converted.

People say really silly things about obesity. It's not complicated. I don't know why people in alt-health circles make it so complicated talking about hormones and other things. Those things shouldn't be the main focus of the conversation. I have to wonder, have any of these people ever been obese themselves? I have. I was almost 240 lbs. at just under 6'. That's obese. Do any of these people know obese people in real life? Do they have obese family members or at least lived with obese roommates? If yes, then they would know what obese people actually eat, if they paid attention, day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. I have news for everyone who didn't pay attention; obese people eat everything. They don't eat "low carb." They don't eat "low fat." They don't eat low anything. They eat high everything. And obese people know they are obese. It's not a secret. We don't care. We know but yet we continue to eat the same way everyday. Again, it's not complicated, for the average otherwise healthy person. I'm not talking about someone who's disabled or has a real endocrine problem. I'm talking about normal people who eat food that makes and keeps them fat for life.

The conversation needs to be about the person and what they eat everyday, not leptin.

.

 

[tca300]

@Westside PUFAs What about people with large appetites who can easily put away 3500+ calories of fruit, rice, potatoes, and fat free dairy? Do you think protein and carbohydrates dont turn to fat even at a large surplus like that?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Do you think protein and carbohydrates dont turn to fat even at a large surplus like that?

Yes I think that.

I think the small amount of naturally occurring fat in low fat foods does what it needs to do for its purposes.

I think females may naturally have a mechanism that may convert sugar into fat much more easily than males, to increase the chances of surviving a pregnancy, but that's doesn't mean that women are naturally obese, it just means they can store more fat more easily. It's not an excuse to be fat.

.

 

[tca300]

@Westside PUFAs Thank you for your time!

 

[Kyle M]

@Kyle MThe conversation needs to be about the person and what they eat everyday, not leptin.

.

Fair enough, it is more accurate to say fat is stored rather than energy substrate. The thing I can't get on board with is that eating fat makes people fat, since low carb dieters tend to be lean, and young healthy people tend to be able to eat a mixed, high calorie diet and be lean. So although fat seems to be the clear center piece of becoming fat, it's not a 1 to 1 relationship. The same way as sugar is the centerpiece of high blood sugar, but healthy people can consume sugar without it staying in the blood. Healthy people can consume fat without it being stored in fat cells to excess. That's the conversation I'm interested in, the molecular physiology of it, I'm not as interested in the psychology of eating. I'll leave that to someone who is passionate about it.

 

[ecstatichamster]

As metabolism drops glycolysis increases and lipolysis increases and oxidative phosphorylation falls. The body relies on free fatty acids more and more for metabolism. High cortisol and high lactic acid is chronic. This is what I understand from Ray. Diabetics can't use sugar effectively and are locked into fat burning. Ironically the dieting propaganda today is all about turning into a fat burning machine. Making diabetic metabolism some popularly sought ideal. Lol.

High fat does cause insulin resistance. I think high pufa fats destroy beta cells and cause diabetes

 

[Kyle M]

As metabolism drops glycolysis increases and lipolysis increases and oxidative phosphorylation falls. The body relies on free fatty acids more and more for metabolism. High cortisol and high lactic acid is chronic. This is what I understand from Ray. Diabetics can't use sugar effectively and are locked into fat burning. Ironically the dieting propaganda today is all about turning into a fat burning machine. Making diabetic metabolism some popularly sought ideal. Lol.

High fat does cause insulin resistance. I think high pufa fats destroy beta cells and cause diabetes

I agree with all of that. I would even go further and say that fat consumption, especially PUFA, causes and/or exacerbates that situation. I would stop short of saying that fat consumption is the proximal cause of obesity and insulin resistance, however.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The same way as sugar is the centerpiece of high blood sugar, but healthy people can consume sugar without it staying in the blood.

But if they eat a steak and no carbohydrate at all, some of that will be turned into sugar. Blood sugar is not just about dietary sugar because the glucose molecule is such a highly regulated thing in humans, so much so that if you don't eat it we have gluconeogenesis as a back up plan. Blood sugar is a constant thing but people tend to talk about it only in regards to dietary carbohydrate.

and young healthy people tend to be able to eat a mixed, high calorie diet and be lean.

I think they eat to maintenance and don't dip into too much fat storage. We always store and we always burn some amount of fat but the reason why the obese are obese is because they dipped into fat storage by going over maintenance. And when you do that every day, day after day and week after week, one day you wake up and you're obese. A young lean person can eat pizza once a week but they can't eat pizza daily, as the only calorie source. If they did and became fatter, I argue that in that case it's the oil in the dough and the fatty acids from the cheese, not the flour or tomato sauce, that was the energy substrate that was stored in fat cells.

I'm not as interested in the psychology of eating. I'll leave that to someone who is passionate about it.

I'm not either but when I see Robb Wolf talking about leptin and at the same time claims that the obese only got that way because of carbohydrate and pretends that the obese eat some "low fat" diet is just factually wrong.

.

 

[Kyle M]

But if they eat a steak and no carbohydrate at all, some of that will be turned into sugar. Blood sugar is not just about dietary sugar because the glucose molecule is such a highly regulated thing in humans, so much so that if you don't eat it we have gluconeogenesis as a back up plan. Blood sugar is a constant thing but people tend to talk about it only in regards to dietary carbohydrate.

What I meant by "and not stay in the blood" is not having a diabetic response of slow glucose disposal. Obviously the blood always has some glucose, I didn't think that had to be stated.

I think they eat to maintenance and don't dip into too much fat storage. We always store and we always burn some amount of fat but the reason why the obese are obese is because they dipped into fat storage by going over maintenance. And when you do that every day, day after day and week after week, one day you wake up and you're obese. A young lean person can eat pizza once a week but they can't eat pizza daily, as the only calorie source. If they did and became fatter, I argue that in that case it's the oil in the dough and the fatty acids from the cheese, not the flour or tomato sauce, that was the energy substrate that was stored in fat cells.

I used to eat food similar in fat content to pizza every day, maybe 4k calories worth. I lifted weights in high school and force fed myself to gain weight, and still never got above 170 lbs, with a very low bodyfat percentage. Those cheap electric body fat measurers couldn't measure mine, meaning it was pretty low.

 

[Kyle M]

Proofreading Science: See What is There

 

[Wagner83]

@Kyle M You wrote "The proximal cause of obesity is, of course, the organism storing energy substrate as fat in subcutaneous and visceral adipocytes and ectopically on muscle, rather than using it as energy or reducing intake."

The question is, where does that fat come from? It has to come from somewhere. And it has to become fat first in order to be stored. It's not protein that is stored inside fat cells, it's not sugar that is stored inside fat cells. It's fat. It's not simply energy substrate that is stored, it is fat that is stored in fat cells. So when looking at the only three energy substrates for humans, amino acids, fatty acids and monosaccharides and disaccharides, which of those are converted into fat, the thing that is stored in fat cells? Fatty acids are already fatty acids. They do not need to be converted.

People say really silly things about obesity. It's not complicated. I don't know why people in alt-health circles make it so complicated talking about hormones and other things. Those things shouldn't be the main focus of the conversation. I have to wonder, have any of these people ever been obese themselves? I have. I was almost 240 lbs. at just under 6'. That's obese. Do any of these people know obese people in real life? Do they have obese family members or at least lived with obese roommates? If yes, then they would know what obese people actually eat, if they paid attention, day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. I have news for everyone who didn't pay attention; obese people eat everything. They don't eat "low carb." They don't eat "low fat." They don't eat low anything. They eat high everything. And obese people know they are obese. It's not a secret. We don't care. We know but yet we continue to eat the same way everyday. Again, it's not complicated, for the average otherwise healthy person. I'm not talking about someone who's disabled or has a real endocrine problem. I'm talking about normal people who eat food that makes and keeps them fat for life.

The conversation needs to be about the person and what they eat everyday, not leptin.

.

What do you think about someone young and lean who eats low fat (some coconut oil with each meal, sometimes beef) and develops love handles and weight around the belly? I'm not sure if it's fat or water, but it does seem to be connected with encodrine health (estrogens, health) and such meals as 1kg potatoes with small amount of fat and proteins do seem to increase this tendency in my case. I wouldn't compare it to being obese or grossly fat but it does make me fatter.
Doesn't insulin, glycemic index, quantities of carbs in a meal play part? Is food coma not worrying?

 

[Kyle M]

What do you think about someone young and lean who eats low fat (some coconut oil with each meal, sometimes beef) and develops love handles and weight around the belly? I'm not sure if it's fat or water, but it does seem to be connected with encodrine health (estrogens, health) and such meals as 1kg potatoes with small amount of fat and proteins do seem to increase this tendency in my case. I wouldn't compare it to being obese or grossly fat but it does make me fatter.
Doesn't insulin, glycemic index, quantities of carbs in a meal play part? Is food coma not worrying?

You can figure out if it's fat or not with a skin fold test or an electronic body fat percentage test. If it's shaped like love handles though I wouldn't waste your time, it's fat.

Are you saying that you are lean and had no noticeable fat deposits until this mid-section development post-eating meals of potatoes with coconut oil etc.?

I think all of those things play a part in health, but it's impossible to make an unequivocal statement about it. Some very skinny people who can't gain weight at all eat food that gives them "food comas" often, whereas some obese people don't get that feeling after eating. Personally I get a food coma usually from mixing starches and fats in large amounts, like a meal of rice with a fatty cut of meat. I've seen some attempts at explaining what the food coma is but I am not fully convinced. It seems to have something to do with insulin, but in my experience is related to macronutrient composition more than purely stimulating insulin with sugars.