Metabolic Efficiency And Metabolic Rate - Doubt

[tyw]

@tyw From what I read it seems you don't agree with a lot of Ray Peat's ideas. I am interested in what you think is an optimal diet then?
All of Peat's ideas are about raising metabolism, clearly you're not in favor of that. Then what would be your approach to disease prevention and vitality?
Does is it all come from complimentary medicine (TCM)?

Best diet is that which causes you the least stress. Seeking a good diet is about "stress reduction", not "energy optimisation".

I do not care for optimising macronutrient ratios unless it is for specific athletic performance purposes.

In my experience, disease is almost always caused by some factor other than nutrition (with the exception of over- and under-nutrition).

it sounds like it might be best to not mess with thyroid meds at all considering it sounds like the body regulates itself regardless & nobody seems to truly know what normal thyroid level really should be if it's so individual(or maybe by ancestry?). do you take thyroid meds? what supplements, if any do you take? btw, thank u so much for your brilliant posts! i've been trying to read through all of them but my add has been really bad lately, do u know of anything i can try instead of adderall?

Never touched any thyroid medications before. Never really did well with natural thyroid as well.

Supplements vary according to needs, though usually it is restricted to methylation support (Mo, Mn, Li, 5-MHTF), and then Pregnenolone and DHEA (oral). Only taken when needed, determined through my wooowooo TCM methodologies.

Occasional herbal remedies as needed in response to pathogens ... too many varieties to list here. As a generic anti-pathogen though, I always carry a lot of Betaine HCL in case of major infection.

.....

 

[haidut]

Best diet is that which causes you the least stress. Seeking a good diet is about "stress reduction", not "energy optimisation".

I do not care for optimising macronutrient ratios unless it is for specific athletic performance purposes.

In my experience, disease is almost always caused by some factor other than nutrition (with the exception of over- and under-nutrition).



Never touched any thyroid medications before. Never really did well with natural thyroid as well.

Supplements vary according to needs, though usually it is restricted to methylation support (Mo, Mn, Li, 5-MHTF), and then Pregnenolone and DHEA (oral). Only taken when needed, determined through my wooowooo TCM methodologies.

Occasional herbal remedies as needed in response to pathogens ... too many varieties to list here. As a generic anti-pathogen though, I always carry a lot of Betaine HCL in case of major infection.

.....

What is the mechanism behind betaine HCL? Isn't mostly to increase gastric acid output?

 

[tyw]

What is the mechanism behind betaine HCL? Isn't mostly to increase gastric acid output?

Largely unknown. It just seems to work well, and had a history of very effective use for infectious disease until its use was stopped in the mid 1930s -- Hydrochloric Acid Therapy

Oral dosages seem to work just as well as intravenous dosages.

Back then, pure hydrochloric acid was used, along with other Cl- ion containing compounds, which means that mechanism is likely tied directly to the presence of Cl- ions. The likely site of action is neutrophil-mediated immunity, which requires Hydrogen Peroxide and Chloride Ions to function well -- Neutrophil - Wikipedia

Adding more Cl- ions via hydrochloric acid probably bolstered this immune response, and served to kill any pathogens that Neutrophils came into contact with.

However, if one reads that first linked article, some of the cures are not adequately explained by immune reactions alone. Hence I say, "mechanism unknown".

Today we prefer Betaine HCL due to the ease of dosing, and somewhat ability to tolerate higher doses without the massive side effects of having to drink or inject other Cl- based compounds.

There is speculation that any Betaine ion is going to be useful in inhibiting the activity of certain viruses (in this case, the most common form of glycine betaine / trimethylglycine was used, and this should be the most common form found in supplements) -- http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b01180

The fact that viruses are known to colonise to the gut, where such supplements will be delivered, makes this mechanic even more potentially promising -- The human gut virome: Inter-individual variation and dynamic response to diet

NOTE: the topic of viruses is a huge and very politically-charged area of research. That one page I just linked to alone has enormous implications for everything related with gut flora. IMO, people study gut flora are completely blind if they do not also study the gut virome.

I will not comment further regarding the topic of viruses ​

The above is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the effects are far-reaching. However, we still cannot mechanically describe all these effects.

In any case, it just seems to work ..... and the side effects of even 30 gram a day doses are minor. The only hard thing to tolerate is the burn of having to stomach that much HCL, but again, side effects seem minimal, especially if doses are evenly spread out through the day.

.....

 

[raypeatclips]

@tyw What do you think about increasing the metabolic rate, increasing body temperature, and this clearing any potential infections?

 

[ATP]

Best diet is that which causes you the least stress. Seeking a good diet is about "stress reduction", not "energy optimisation".

I do not care for optimising macronutrient ratios unless it is for specific athletic performance purposes.

In my experience, disease is almost always caused by some factor other than nutrition (with the exception of over- and under-nutrition).



Never touched any thyroid medications before. Never really did well with natural thyroid as well.

Supplements vary according to needs, though usually it is restricted to methylation support (Mo, Mn, Li, 5-MHTF), and then Pregnenolone and DHEA (oral). Only taken when needed, determined through my wooowooo TCM methodologies.

Occasional herbal remedies as needed in response to pathogens ... too many varieties to list here. As a generic anti-pathogen though, I always carry a lot of Betaine HCL in case of major infection.

.....

If diet is of little importance and you use supplements occasionally which are restricted to a small selection. How would you approach a common problem like fatigue? Or diabetes?
I am struggling to figure out what is left except for pharmaceutical prescriptions drugs, which definitely have their place.

I am only asking because I am always wanting to learn and understand everyone's perspective on health.

 

[DaveFoster]

Best diet is that which causes you the least stress. Seeking a good diet is about "stress reduction", not "energy optimisation".

I do not care for optimising macronutrient ratios unless it is for specific athletic performance purposes.

In my experience, disease is almost always caused by some factor other than nutrition (with the exception of over- and under-nutrition).



Never touched any thyroid medications before. Never really did well with natural thyroid as well.

Supplements vary according to needs, though usually it is restricted to methylation support (Mo, Mn, Li, 5-MHTF), and then Pregnenolone and DHEA (oral). Only taken when needed, determined through my wooowooo TCM methodologies.

Occasional herbal remedies as needed in response to pathogens ... too many varieties to list here. As a generic anti-pathogen though, I always carry a lot of Betaine HCL in case of major infection.

.....

You supplement molybdenum? Any sources as to why?

 

[Koveras]

You supplement molybdenum? Any sources as to why?

I referred you earlier to Mark Donohue's report on Sulfoxidation and Sulfation. It's needed for the metabolism/detoxification of a broad variety of compounds.

 

[tyw]

@tyw What do you think about increasing the metabolic rate, increasing body temperature, and this clearing any potential infections?

Too many different potential infections to generalise to a simple answer like "high metabolic rate and/or body temperature clears potential infections".

So many parasites have evolved ways to trick the body's defences. There are too many viruses and protozoa and bacteria and what not, interacting in too many distinct mechanisms, to be able to say that metabolism has anything to do with a specific infection.

Also, the Spanish Flu of 1918 killed the fittest first .....

Specific diseases need specific cures and specific management strategies.

You supplement molybdenum? Any sources as to why?

@Koveras has laid out some of the benefits.

Sidenote: the issue with xanthine oxidase is something that I see a lot of. Lots of times people complain that they can't handle coffee or chocolate. Give them molybdenum and manganese, and suddenly all issues go away.

Of course, this is just a management strategy, and the ideal solution is to fix the root cause of the issues. But it is a decently safe management strategy.​

Oral Molybdenum doses are effective at around 300-500 mcg. Personally, I would go with the higher range.

Absorption efficiency through the gut is very poor, maybe 3-5%, and chelated molydenum is water soluble. Both provide very good practical dosing kinetics, since we can dose exactly how much we want, with little chance of overdose, and with very fast clearance mechanisms even if transient overdose is achieved. Molybdenum in particular is cleared very quickly through urine, and then the rest excreted in faeces.

This also means that for therapeutic purposes, dosages need to be frequent (usually 4-5 times a day), but given the low cost of the compounds, this is generally not an issue.

The same inefficient absorption mechanics apply to Manganese, but not to Lithium and 5-MTHF. The latter two need to be dosed appropriately.

Like I said, I use all these compounds transiently as needed.

....

 

[DaveFoster]

I referred you earlier to Mark Donohue's report on Sulfoxidation and Sulfation. It's needed for the metabolism/detoxification of a broad variety of compounds.

View attachment 3995 View attachment 3996

Thanks for laying that out Koveras; I haven't gotten to 11 yet, but I think I will do so.

@Koveras has laid out some of the benefits.

Sidenote: the issue with xanthine oxidase is something that I see a lot of. Lots of times people complain that they can't handle coffee or chocolate. Give them molybdenum and manganese, and suddenly all issues go away.

Of course, this is just a management strategy, and the ideal solution is to fix the root cause of the issues. But it is a decently safe management strategy.​

Oral Molybdenum doses are effective at around 300-500 mcg. Personally, I would go with the higher range.

Absorption efficiency through the gut is very poor, maybe 3-5%, and chelated molydenum is water soluble. Both provide very good practical dosing kinetics, since we can dose exactly how much we want, with little chance of overdose, and with very fast clearance mechanisms even if transient overdose is achieved. Molybdenum in particular is cleared very quickly through urine, and then the rest excreted in faeces.

This also means that for therapeutic purposes, dosages need to be frequent (usually 4-5 times a day), but given the low cost of the compounds, this is generally not an issue.

The same inefficient absorption mechanics apply to Manganese, but not to Lithium and 5-MTHF. The latter two need to be dosed appropriately.

Like I said, I use all these compounds transiently as needed.

....

Interesting; for lithium, do you use orotate, and what's your dosing schedule like? Do you think it's detrimental long-term? People seem to do well on it for bipolar disorder, and even just for its anxiolytic purposes, lithium seems appealing.

 

[Koveras]

 

[Koveras]

@DaveFoster This is where I was wondering how the sulfur content of DMSO may play into some issues that people experience.

Especially if one is avoiding the foods that naturally have somewhat higher molybdenum (legumes, leafy greens, grains, nuts), avoidance of some methylation support (B9, B12, other methylators when needed), high intake of aspirin and caffeine which stress these pathways, intake of DMSO, occasionally excessive avoidance of some amino acids like methionine, cysteine, histidine, excessive lowering of iron or avoidance of iron (which is a cofactor).

Other cofactors: B6, B2, B5, Magnesium, ATP (Thyroid)

 

[paymanz]

dairy(fat) and white rice seems to be good sources Molybdenum, Hard To Pronounce, Harder Still To Obtain

 

[ecstatichamster]

I like the post. But here is a question. How come anti-serotonin drugs can reverse type II diabetes? Their effect is not really on improving fat oxidation but on restoring fast metabolism in general. Serotonin is the primary brake on metabolism and anything that opposes it is anti-diabetic and anti-cancer. I think it is not so much a hampered beta oxidation as it is hampered oxidation period. Removing the brake on oxidation usually reverses the pathology.

do you have any cites on this? This is very interesting and I haven't heard this before. Thanks @haidut

 

[haidut]

Largely unknown. It just seems to work well, and had a history of very effective use for infectious disease until its use was stopped in the mid 1930s -- Hydrochloric Acid Therapy

Oral dosages seem to work just as well as intravenous dosages.

Back then, pure hydrochloric acid was used, along with other Cl- ion containing compounds, which means that mechanism is likely tied directly to the presence of Cl- ions. The likely site of action is neutrophil-mediated immunity, which requires Hydrogen Peroxide and Chloride Ions to function well -- Neutrophil - Wikipedia

Adding more Cl- ions via hydrochloric acid probably bolstered this immune response, and served to kill any pathogens that Neutrophils came into contact with.

However, if one reads that first linked article, some of the cures are not adequately explained by immune reactions alone. Hence I say, "mechanism unknown".

Today we prefer Betaine HCL due to the ease of dosing, and somewhat ability to tolerate higher doses without the massive side effects of having to drink or inject other Cl- based compounds.

There is speculation that any Betaine ion is going to be useful in inhibiting the activity of certain viruses (in this case, the most common form of glycine betaine / trimethylglycine was used, and this should be the most common form found in supplements) -- http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b01180

The fact that viruses are known to colonise to the gut, where such supplements will be delivered, makes this mechanic even more potentially promising -- The human gut virome: Inter-individual variation and dynamic response to diet

NOTE: the topic of viruses is a huge and very politically-charged area of research. That one page I just linked to alone has enormous implications for everything related with gut flora. IMO, people study gut flora are completely blind if they do not also study the gut virome.

I will not comment further regarding the topic of viruses ​

The above is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the effects are far-reaching. However, we still cannot mechanically describe all these effects.

In any case, it just seems to work ..... and the side effects of even 30 gram a day doses are minor. The only hard thing to tolerate is the burn of having to stomach that much HCL, but again, side effects seem minimal, especially if doses are evenly spread out through the day.

.....

I know you have reservations about this, but thiamine has shown to work just as well as betaine in raising gastric acid output. Its mechanism of action was found to be not so much the presence of Cl- ions (if thiamine is used ad hydrochloride salt) but more due to the raising of CO2. Co2 also regulates gastric acid output. Glycine does as well, and there is no need to contain Cl- ions as glycine activates the chloride channels. So, using pure glycine and/or thiamine seems to work just as well.
Proper production of gastric acid has been shown to be crucial for the prevention of SIBO and IBS. Now, I don't know if it has effects on viruses in the colon but I don't see why not.
My suspicion is that gastric acid, being a strong Lewis acid is simply a respiration stimulator, and points things back to metabolism Sorry, did not mean to start another heated discussion on this.

 

[haidut]

do you have any cites on this? This is very interesting and I haven't heard this before. Thanks @haidut

Oh my, there is tons of research and some clinical trials as well. Big Pharma is currently trialing a few TPH inhibitors (and as such anti-serotonin) drugs for IBS and quickly found out that these people were also losing weight and getting "remission" from their diabetes. So, one of the TPH inhibitors is now in clinical trials for both obesity and diabetes. The research is not really new and was known even since cyproheptadine and ketanserin were synthesized that they can help diabetes. Look at the ketanserin Wiki page, it says it at the very top. Here are some other recent studies.
Serotonin as a New Therapeutic Target for Diabetes Mellitus and Obesity
Peripheral Serotonin: a New Player in Systemic Energy Homeostasis
Improved oral glucose tolerance following antiserotonin treatment in patients with chemical diabetes. - PubMed - NCBI
Improved oral glucose tolerance following antiserotonin treatment in patients with chemical diabetes

As far as I know, the TPH inhibitor trialed for obesity and diabetes is LX-1031 but cypro, ketanserin, lisuride, bromocriptine, metergoline, etc should all help and it is not a coincidence that bromocriptine is officially approved for diabetes II by the FDA - when used in lower doses it is primarily dopaminergic and anti-serotonergic.
Bromocriptine - Wikipedia

 

[AJC]

Too many different potential infections to generalise to a simple answer like "high metabolic rate and/or body temperature clears potential infections".

So many parasites have evolved ways to trick the body's defences. There are too many viruses and protozoa and bacteria and what not, interacting in too many distinct mechanisms, to be able to say that metabolism has anything to do with a specific infection.

Also, the Spanish Flu of 1918 killed the fittest first .....

Specific diseases need specific cures and specific management strategies.



@Koveras has laid out some of the benefits.

Sidenote: the issue with xanthine oxidase is something that I see a lot of. Lots of times people complain that they can't handle coffee or chocolate. Give them molybdenum and manganese, and suddenly all issues go away.

Of course, this is just a management strategy, and the ideal solution is to fix the root cause of the issues. But it is a decently safe management strategy.​

Oral Molybdenum doses are effective at around 300-500 mcg. Personally, I would go with the higher range.

Absorption efficiency through the gut is very poor, maybe 3-5%, and chelated molydenum is water soluble. Both provide very good practical dosing kinetics, since we can dose exactly how much we want, with little chance of overdose, and with very fast clearance mechanisms even if transient overdose is achieved. Molybdenum in particular is cleared very quickly through urine, and then the rest excreted in faeces.

This also means that for therapeutic purposes, dosages need to be frequent (usually 4-5 times a day), but given the low cost of the compounds, this is generally not an issue.

The same inefficient absorption mechanics apply to Manganese, but not to Lithium and 5-MTHF. The latter two need to be dosed appropriately.

Like I said, I use all these compounds transiently as needed.

....

Very curious about this xanthine oxidase support, it's the first time I've heard of it.

As a person who has developed a "sensitivity" to coffee and chocolate (two of my favorite foods in the world) I'm very interested in experimenting with Mn and Mb to see if it helps. It looks like from your above post that a reasonable "transient dose" would be about 300-500mg each of Mb and Mn 4-5 times through the day. Would there be a benefit to someone doing this every day, or just the day or two up to when they want to experiment with the "sensitive" foods?

Actually to add, because I don't know where else this tedium of information would fit: I've noticed over the past month or two that when I drink coffee my urine actually smells extremely strongly of coffee, and it comes on quickly as if my body is not metabolizing the coffee and using it properly. Do you think a deficiency in this methylation support could be playing a role?

 

[amethyst]

One can easily take a digestive enzyme containing Betaine HCL with a meal. It works wonders for your digestion. I used to have SIBO and sulfur plus the digestive enzymes keep any sort of tummy problem in check. For anyone, NOW Super Ezymes work great.

 

[DaveFoster]

@DaveFoster This is where I was wondering how the sulfur content of DMSO may play into some issues that people experience.

Especially if one is avoiding the foods that naturally have somewhat higher molybdenum (legumes, leafy greens, grains, nuts), avoidance of some methylation support (B9, B12, other methylators when needed), high intake of aspirin and caffeine which stress these pathways, intake of DMSO, occasionally excessive avoidance of some amino acids like methionine, cysteine, histidine, excessive lowering of iron or avoidance of iron (which is a cofactor).

Other cofactors: B6, B2, B5, Magnesium, ATP (Thyroid)

You've just described the Peat diet; given the harmful effects of excess methylation (linked with B12 and B5 supplementation), which haidut and I discussed on another thread, I see where'd this would be a problem.

Do you think Mo and B2 supplementation to support sulfite oxidase can alleviate the negative effects of DMSO?

Also, in addition to sulfite test strips, do you think the sulfate urine test strips are a good self-diagnosis of any toxicity?

 

[MB50]

@DaveFoster This is where I was wondering how the sulfur content of DMSO may play into some issues that people experience.

Especially if one is avoiding the foods that naturally have somewhat higher molybdenum (legumes, leafy greens, grains, nuts), avoidance of some methylation support (B9, B12, other methylators when needed), high intake of aspirin and caffeine which stress these pathways, intake of DMSO, occasionally excessive avoidance of some amino acids like methionine, cysteine, histidine, excessive lowering of iron or avoidance of iron (which is a cofactor).

Other cofactors: B6, B2, B5, Magnesium, ATP (Thyroid)

Very curious about this xanthine oxidase support, it's the first time I've heard of it.

As a person who has developed a "sensitivity" to coffee and chocolate (two of my favorite foods in the world) I'm very interested in experimenting with Mn and Mb to see if it helps. It looks like from your above post that a reasonable "transient dose" would be about 300-500mg each of Mb and Mn 4-5 times through the day. Would there be a benefit to someone doing this every day, or just the day or two up to when they want to experiment with the "sensitive" foods?

Actually to add, because I don't know where else this tedium of information would fit: I've noticed over the past month or two that when I drink coffee my urine actually smells extremely strongly of coffee, and it comes on quickly as if my body is not metabolizing the coffee and using it properly. Do you think a deficiency in this methylation support could be playing a role?

I had some first-hand experience with this during a high-dose caffeine period lasting about 3 months, along with occasional aspirin and supplements in DMSO. I think some other underlying issues may have contributed to bad feelings during this period, but the caffeine with a low intake of molybdenum and other methylation supporting supplements clearly had an effect. Adding in methylation support (300-600 micrograms molybdenum 3x/day, 5mg 2x/day lithium orotate, 1mg MTHF 3x/day, 16 mg Manganese/ 2x day) and magnesium has really stabilized mood. Lithium and manganese are taken at breakfast and dinner.

I also thinks its important to note that I never had any issues with caffeine previously. I have been restricting caffeine for the past several weeks but will gradually re-introduce it in the future. I suspect there will no longer be issues, but I will not be exceeding the amount of caffeine in a cup or coffee or two.

 

[tyw]

I know you have reservations about this, but thiamine has shown to work just as well as betaine in raising gastric acid output. Its mechanism of action was found to be not so much the presence of Cl- ions (if thiamine is used ad hydrochloride salt) but more due to the raising of CO2. Co2 also regulates gastric acid output. Glycine does as well, and there is no need to contain Cl- ions as glycine activates the chloride channels. So, using pure glycine and/or thiamine seems to work just as well.
Proper production of gastric acid has been shown to be crucial for the prevention of SIBO and IBS. Now, I don't know if it has effects on viruses in the colon but I don't see why not.
My suspicion is that gastric acid, being a strong Lewis acid is simply a respiration stimulator, and points things back to metabolism :) Sorry, did not mean to start another heated discussion on this.

The results described in the first article and early experimentation with Cl- ions clearly show that the effect is purely mediated by the presence of supra-physiological doses of Cl- ions.

Thiamine does nothing to support this level of Cl-. It is the presence of Cl- that pathogens cannot stand for some reason, and there is no way to achieve this amount of Cl- ions except with direct Cl- supplementation (through Betaine HCL or otherwise).

This has nothing to do with metabolism (in the context of fighting infection).

The use cases for high doses are strictly for infection control when there is active infection present, and this is by far one of the best generic anti-pathogens around. It is not intended as a chronic supplement in high doses, although some people seem to like a chronic low dose, though I don't, and only use it acutely in specific cases.

Very curious about this xanthine oxidase support, it's the first time I've heard of it.

As a person who has developed a "sensitivity" to coffee and chocolate (two of my favorite foods in the world) I'm very interested in experimenting with Mn and Mb to see if it helps. It looks like from your above post that a reasonable "transient dose" would be about 300-500mg each of Mb and Mn 4-5 times through the day. Would there be a benefit to someone doing this every day, or just the day or two up to when they want to experiment with the "sensitive" foods?

Actually to add, because I don't know where else this tedium of information would fit: I've noticed over the past month or two that when I drink coffee my urine actually smells extremely strongly of coffee, and it comes on quickly as if my body is not metabolizing the coffee and using it properly. Do you think a deficiency in this methylation support could be playing a role?

Standard dose would probably be, Molydenum 300-500mcg x 4 a day, and Manganese 10-20mg x 2 a day, both spread out as evenly as possible, and/or timed with intake of substances that will potentially increase demand for methylation pathways.

Pharmacokinetics are pretty fast with these compounds, which means that effects are seen quickly, and effects are lost quick. Acute dosing will usually demonstrate significant effects, to which one can use as a basis to see if these pathways are indeed compromised in a particular individual. I cannot make recommendations for chronic dosing.

Methyl xanthines are just one of the components that require these transition metals for handling. Some of the material that Koveras posted is useful in determining what else may benefit from this. Generally, any handling of sulfates tends to require such pathways, and this will generalise to foods like certain leafy greens, pork, shellfish, and anything that contains a lot of sulfur-containing amino acids.

.....