Metabolic Efficiency And Metabolic Rate - Doubt

[tyw]

I think the centarians and thyroid is essentially a look at thyroid levels near the end of life,they are close to death regardless of being a centarian,they are winding down metabolically.
Could we not construe the study as high RT3 as pushing them closer to death.
Lower active thyroid hormone Its protective to a certain point ,beyond this point is dangerous as with RT3 having a protective effect to a certain point.
I think we would need a full thyroid work up from 80 years old and on to deduce anything from this.

See Mittirs post here on the okinawan diet and longevity,it's an interesting angle,Peat mentioned it before and other have also,the Japanese are notorious for lying about older people's age,some were dead already for 20 years as their children kept collecting their pension and pocketing it.
One example of pension fraud .Sogen Kato - Wikipedia

Mittirs post Epidemiological Evidence?

The amount of Thyroid related hormones is a fine balancing act. And just like my comments with Vit A, D, and Calcium, what is "high Thyroid" for one person is not necessarily considered "high" for another person.

The second paper I quoted showed analysis for Askenazi Jew showed normal T4 and a lot more TSH compared to aged matched subjects. ie: this was not just "at the end of life", and the patterns were observed even 30-40 years prior to death.

These people are different, and what consists "hypothyroid" to the mainstream establishment is not pathological to them.

----

There are enough cases of legitimately verified centenarians on Okinawa to rightfully say that it is an anomaly in terms of greater longevity.

Why? All we can say right now is that they are that way because they are born that way.

Sure, we don't know with certainty but don't you think we have enough evidence pointing in the same direction? Aspirin and caffeine may not be enough as examples but there are others that added up together to paint pretty much the same picture.
Pregnenolone Increases Maximum Lifespan By 60% (animal Model)
Inhibiting Serotonin During Protein Feeding Doubles Maximum Lifespan
Blocking Serotonin Extends Lifespan By 40%, Triples Youthspan
Serotonin Antagonists Extend Lifespan, SSRI Dramatically Shorten It
[INSERT HERE ALL THE STUDIES ON LIFESPAN EXTENSION BY RESTRICTING TYPROPHAN/METHIONINE/CYSTEINE]

So, I am not asking for a definitive answer as I know there is none currently. But when you have all of these chemicals extending maximum (and sometimes average) lifespan the question naturally arises - assuming they all work (and it is a big assumption until more is known) what is the common mechanism behind them. Is there a least common denominator of action so to speak? Well, there may be more than one but the one we do know about is that these all have the effect of increasing RMR. So, if you know of another plausible explanation (even though it may be speculative) please share it as I would like to follow up on it. My post is not so much about "hey these things work" as it about "IF these things work, what else other than metabolism can you suggest as a mechanism".
So, happy to hear your comments on that one.

These are not necessarily mechanism that involve Metabolism, and definitely not about mechanisms that support the idea of increasing metabolism.

Firstly, I will caution against almost any study that is not a human study when discussing human longevity. We are so different to the rest of the animals out there (even primates), that any such comparison is either not very significant, or invalid.

If one really wants to see how complicated the field of Human Longevity is, I have recommended the book 'Human Longevity' by Dave Valentine before. It is expensive, but it will give a full picture about how everything from PUFA regulation to ROS regulation to oxygen restriction to select tissues, are adaptations that humans have geared towards longevity.

Another one of the reasons why I am so against animal studies, is because the Aging process has so many dependent variables depending on the organism in question.

There are the extremes of organisms that start aging the moment they are sexually mature, and then there are Humans, for which aging is controlled largely by the brain (unless there is sudden trauma to other parts of the body).

This isn't a universal mechanic, since you will find similar levels of PUFA in the brain of long-lived pigeons, and short-lived rats -- The Long Life of Birds: The Rat-Pigeon Comparison Revisited .... in other words, the brain does not set the pace of aging for Birds.

The human brain is unlike any other brain, and the regulatory mechanisms that provide for all this hormone regulation must work in concert with the rest of the body in very complex ways that we do not understand.

That is to say, the healthy aged person's brain is able to maintain their "youthful hormonal profile".

Can you replace this using exogenous means? Maybe, but there will be a lot of tweaking required, and there is risk of a hard dependency on exogenous compounds (by shutting down endogenous production or feedback pathways).

----

Unfortunately, there is no single theme that any of the mechanisms described above are converging upon.

Even something like serotonin is subject to regulation by so many uniquely-human factors, that it isn't just a simple matter of "reduce incoming serotonin from food and gut bacteria" (which doesn't answer "how do the serotonergic neurons in the CNS respond to this negative feedback")

Even something like brain responsiveness is not just about energetics, and even if it were just about "more energy is better", then one has to explain all the various mechanisms that the brain has to restrict oxygen and substrate use, and rely heavily on lactate for fuel, and then come to a conclusion as to which regions of the brain should be given more energy, at what times, for how long, etc, etc ....

The only unifying factor that I see in all this study, is "Efficiency" -- energy used when it needs to be used, just enough to deal with the incoming stimulus, and while producing as little waste products (including heat) as possible.

We see this in mitochondria, where those of the longest lived organisms are those which manage to produce little ROS (through whatever means). We see this is the brain, where the most responsive to stimuli are those that are able to relax nervous system potentials and fire them very quickly at will, vs the "always on, high metabolic rate, high waste product" schizophrenic brain:
- Molecular Psychiatry - Mitochondrial dysfunction in schizophrenia: evidence for compromised brain metabolism and oxidative stress
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925492705002052

We have no idea how to achieve this in a generalised manner . All useful strategies are purely defensive strategies, used to avoid damaging stressors when the body is not ready or able to handle them.

.....

 

[haidut]

We see this in mitochondria, where those of the longest lived organisms are those which manage to produce little ROS (through whatever means).

So, if I am reading this correctly, you do subscribe to (a variation maybe) the rate of living theory?

 

[tyw]

So, if I am reading this correctly, you do subscribe to (a variation maybe) the rate of living theory?

No, it is clear that:

- Damage accumulates in biologic tissues, all the way down to the mitochondria (I like Aubrey De Grey's definition of "damage")
- Above a particular damage threshold, all cellular function continue as per usual. Lifecycle functionality and cellular replication can likely continue ad infinitum.
- Once that threshold is crossed, damage causes defects to accumulate, which gets passed on future cells, leading to a vicious cycle.

This has to be viewed all at levels, from the intracellular, to the organ level, but the principle is the same -- good operation until threshold value is reached. What this threshold is for a particular individual, cell, organ system, etc .... we have no clue.

On the other hand, this applies to energy as well, and if energy drops below a certain threshold, the cell starts panicking, and revert to a "conservative phenotype", which Doug Wallace would probably call oncogenic:



In a perfect world, you have 100% efficient metabolism -- pure energy production, no waste products that can cause damage.

That is never the case for any organism on this planet, and every organism needs to weight the tradeoffs of producing energy vs having to clean up the mess of producing that energy.

Balance is the goal, not increased metabolism. (And I already addressed the idea of "undernourishment" here -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA)

.....

 

[Drareg]

The amount of Thyroid related hormones is a fine balancing act. And just like my comments with Vit A, D, and Calcium, what is "high Thyroid" for one person is not necessarily considered "high" for another person.

The second paper I quoted showed analysis for Askenazi Jew showed normal T4 and a lot more TSH compared to aged matched subjects. ie: this was not just "at the end of life", and the patterns were observed even 30-40 years prior to death.

These people are different, and what consists "hypothyroid" to the mainstream establishment is not pathological to them.

----

There are enough cases of legitimately verified centenarians on Okinawa to rightfully say that it is an anomaly in terms of greater longevity.

Why? All we can say right now is that they are that way because they are born that way.




These are not necessarily mechanism that involve Metabolism, and definitely not about mechanisms that support the idea of increasing metabolism.

Firstly, I will caution against almost any study that is not a human study when discussing human longevity. We are so different to the rest of the animals out there (even primates), that any such comparison is either not very significant, or invalid.

If one really wants to see how complicated the field of Human Longevity is, I have recommended the book 'Human Longevity' by Dave Valentine before. It is expensive, but it will give a full picture about how everything from PUFA regulation to ROS regulation to oxygen restriction to select tissues, are adaptations that humans have geared towards longevity.

Another one of the reasons why I am so against animal studies, is because the Aging process has so many dependent variables depending on the organism in question.

There are the extremes of organisms that start aging the moment they are sexually mature, and then there are Humans, for which aging is controlled largely by the brain (unless there is sudden trauma to other parts of the body).

This isn't a universal mechanic, since you will find similar levels of PUFA in the brain of long-lived pigeons, and short-lived rats -- The Long Life of Birds: The Rat-Pigeon Comparison Revisited .... in other words, the brain does not set the pace of aging for Birds.

The human brain is unlike any other brain, and the regulatory mechanisms that provide for all this hormone regulation must work in concert with the rest of the body in very complex ways that we do not understand.

That is to say, the healthy aged person's brain is able to maintain their "youthful hormonal profile".

Can you replace this using exogenous means? Maybe, but there will be a lot of tweaking required, and there is risk of a hard dependency on exogenous compounds (by shutting down endogenous production or feedback pathways).

----

Unfortunately, there is no single theme that any of the mechanisms described above are converging upon.

Even something like serotonin is subject to regulation by so many uniquely-human factors, that it isn't just a simple matter of "reduce incoming serotonin from food and gut bacteria" (which doesn't answer "how do the serotonergic neurons in the CNS respond to this negative feedback")

Even something like brain responsiveness is not just about energetics, and even if it were just about "more energy is better", then one has to explain all the various mechanisms that the brain has to restrict oxygen and substrate use, and rely heavily on lactate for fuel, and then come to a conclusion as to which regions of the brain should be given more energy, at what times, for how long, etc, etc ....

The only unifying factor that I see in all this study, is "Efficiency" -- energy used when it needs to be used, just enough to deal with the incoming stimulus, and while producing as little waste products (including heat) as possible.

We see this in mitochondria, where those of the longest lived organisms are those which manage to produce little ROS (through whatever means). We see this is the brain, where the most responsive to stimuli are those that are able to relax nervous system potentials and fire them very quickly at will, vs the "always on, high metabolic rate, high waste product" schizophrenic brain:
- Molecular Psychiatry - Mitochondrial dysfunction in schizophrenia: evidence for compromised brain metabolism and oxidative stress
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925492705002052

We have no idea how to achieve this in a generalised manner . All useful strategies are purely defensive strategies, used to avoid damaging stressors when the body is not ready or able to handle them.

.....

Coherent metabolism is what Peat has mentioned puts you into Lings resting state ready for the action state and back.
Increasing and decreasing metabolism are loose terms for what the Thyroid hormones do,they do more.
I'm sure Co2 can be raised multiple ways,I think many forget this.

In relation to the Okinawans it's still questionable, this article has good balance, I personally would be reluctant to put all my eggs in the okinawan basket.http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol25/7/25-7.pdf

Typologies of Extreme Longevity Myths

 

[tyw]

Coherent metabolism is what Peat has mentioned puts you into Lings resting state ready for the action state and back.
Increasing and decreasing metabolism are loose terms for what the Thyroid hormones do,they do more.
I'm sure Co2 can be raised multiple ways,I think many forget this.

In relation to the Okinawans it's still questionable, this article has good balance, I personally would be reluctant to put all my eggs in the okinawan basket.http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol25/7/25-7.pdf

Typologies of Extreme Longevity Myths

And keep in mind that even Gilbert Ling never ever mentions that CO2 is truly a significant Electron Withdrawing Cardinal Adsorbent (EWC) , and when Danny Roddy quizzed him (in the podcast with Kyle), Ling's response was "more research needed to be done".

I've read most of Ling's work, and there is hardly a role for CO2 specifically. What he is concerned about is the unfolding of specific proteins by strong EWCs, of which ATP is the strongest. Once proteins are unfolded, charge-separated water can form at the hydrophilic interface of the exposed proteins. It is this water, which allows free-flow of charge, that Ling attributes to powering life.

This still requires ATP, and it still remains a fact that the brain produces large chunks of its ATP using lactate. I am in the camp of "lactate as preferred fuel" for the brain, especially since these low oxygen conditions are exactly what is needed to reduce probability of peroxidation of the fragile but necessary fatty acids in the brain.

CO2 is clearly used by the body at a higher level (Bohr effect). Whether or not it magically leads to coherence is yet to be proven.

----

Thyroid hormones affect more things than just metabolism. This makes them even more complex (entwined with more systems), and makes the large variation in healthy Thyroid levels even more inexplicable by existing theories.

----

I will drop the topic of Okinawans, with the point I made being that we have no clue why these populations live as long as they do.

.....

 

[Drareg]

And keep in mind that even Gilbert Ling never ever mentions that CO2 is truly a significant Electron Withdrawing Cardinal Adsorbent (EWC) , and when Danny Roddy quizzed him (in the podcast with Kyle), Ling's response was "more research needed to be done".

I've read most of Ling's work, and there is hardly a role for CO2 specifically. What he is concerned about is the unfolding of specific proteins by strong EWCs, of which ATP is the strongest. Once proteins are unfolded, charge-separated water can form at the hydrophilic interface of the exposed proteins. It is this water, which allows free-flow of charge, that Ling attributes to powering life.

This still requires ATP, and it still remains a fact that the brain produces large chunks of its ATP using lactate. I am in the camp of "lactate as preferred fuel" for the brain, especially since these low oxygen conditions are exactly what is needed to reduce probability of peroxidation of the fragile but necessary fatty acids in the brain.

CO2 is clearly used by the body at a higher level (Bohr effect). Whether or not it magically leads to coherence is yet to be proven.

----

Thyroid hormones affect more things than just metabolism. This makes them even more complex (entwined with more systems), and makes the large variation in healthy Thyroid levels even more inexplicable by existing theories.

----

I will drop the topic of Okinawans, with the point I made being that we have no clue why these populations live as long as they do.

.....

The way water is forming around molecules at the surface giving them a different structure makes it even more difficult for researchers.

Surely then the resting state is where signalling for rebuilding is done and the action when water is in the bulk phase is searching for a signal what's out there and bringing back those signals.(in-forming)
Does it make sense to say there is one underlying coherent state similar in all humans that can be got too that resets the electric current to a more coherent state,potentially kicks out all invaders not needed.

One area seems strange to get stuck,the idea with elderly is they are too fragile to increase the flow through all the pipes in the hope you push through the block but the old pipes are fragile and can bust,you need a substance that can heal the pipes as it flows through,I can't be sure but I think this is Peats angle.
A magic pill before sleep everynight!

I understand the call for balance but for most people it's a pascals gamble of sort,getting balance and less stress in your lifestyle as Peats encourages requires a massive lifestyle change for some that just isn't feasible,the gamble then is trying use substance to get close to a resting state after a day in the perfect storm.

The methylation clock is interesting in relation to longevity,it's a small part but relevant.

 

[haidut]

No, it is clear that:

- Damage accumulates in biologic tissues, all the way down to the mitochondria (I like Aubrey De Grey's definition of "damage")
- Above a particular damage threshold, all cellular function continue as per usual. Lifecycle functionality and cellular replication can likely continue ad infinitum.
- Once that threshold is crossed, damage causes defects to accumulate, which gets passed on future cells, leading to a vicious cycle.

This has to be viewed all at levels, from the intracellular, to the organ level, but the principle is the same -- good operation until threshold value is reached. What this threshold is for a particular individual, cell, organ system, etc .... we have no clue.

On the other hand, this applies to energy as well, and if energy drops below a certain threshold, the cell starts panicking, and revert to a "conservative phenotype", which Doug Wallace would probably call oncogenic:



In a perfect world, you have 100% efficient metabolism -- pure energy production, no waste products that can cause damage.

That is never the case for any organism on this planet, and every organism needs to weight the tradeoffs of producing energy vs having to clean up the mess of producing that energy.

Balance is the goal, not increased metabolism. (And I already addressed the idea of "undernourishment" here -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA)

.....

What about disease? If longevity is not dependent so much on high metabolism as it is on "efficient" one, what's your stance on pathologies like diabetes and cancer? Do you also think there is optimal metabolic level too and stimulating metabolism is not wise approach?

 

[lollipop]

@tyw Your explanations gave me the idea of both metabolic balance AND metabolic flexibility give the open dynamic system a good chance to adjust as needed. The system itself decides what is needed for its maximum health and longevity. Like self healing electronics coming out these days. We can support that dynamic system by inputting superior nutritional substances. Have I oversimplified?

It reminds me of cat muscle fiber - relaxed and when at rest you can almost feel the bone beneath the muscle tissue - and the suddenly in a flash that resting, relaxed cat can jump from the ground to the top of a six foot fence using strong contracted fibers. The cat's fibers remain in a healthy state ready to perform whatever action is required or desired. In Yoga this ability to do any range of motion at any moment defines healthy conditioned tissue fiber.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

And keep in mind that even Gilbert Ling never ever mentions that CO2 is truly a significant Electron Withdrawing Cardinal Adsorbent (EWC) , and when Danny Roddy quizzed him (in the podcast with Kyle), Ling's response was "more research needed to be done".

I've read most of Ling's work, and there is hardly a role for CO2 specifically. What he is concerned about is the unfolding of specific proteins by strong EWCs, of which ATP is the strongest. Once proteins are unfolded, charge-separated water can form at the hydrophilic interface of the exposed proteins. It is this water, which allows free-flow of charge, that Ling attributes to powering life.

This still requires ATP, and it still remains a fact that the brain produces large chunks of its ATP using lactate. I am in the camp of "lactate as preferred fuel" for the brain, especially since these low oxygen conditions are exactly what is needed to reduce probability of peroxidation of the fragile but necessary fatty acids in the brain.

CO2 is clearly used by the body at a higher level (Bohr effect). Whether or not it magically leads to coherence is yet to be proven.

----

Thyroid hormones affect more things than just metabolism. This makes them even more complex (entwined with more systems), and makes the large variation in healthy Thyroid levels even more inexplicable by existing theories.

----

I will drop the topic of Okinawans, with the point I made being that we have no clue why these populations live as long as they do.

.....

This is off topic, but do you think delivering ATP directly to cells would be a good idea? Liposomal ATP? Probably not, but still. I wanna hear your thoughts.

 

[tyw]

The way water is forming around molecules at the surface giving them a different structure makes it even more difficult for researchers.

Surely then the resting state is where signalling for rebuilding is done and the action when water is in the bulk phase is searching for a signal what's out there and bringing back those signals.(in-forming)
Does it make sense to say there is one underlying coherent state similar in all humans that can be got too that resets the electric current to a more coherent state,potentially kicks out all invaders not needed.

One area seems strange to get stuck,the idea with elderly is they are too fragile to increase the flow through all the pipes in the hope you push through the block but the old pipes are fragile and can bust,you need a substance that can heal the pipes as it flows through,I can't be sure but I think this is Peats angle.
A magic pill before sleep everynight!

I understand the call for balance but for most people it's a pascals gamble of sort,getting balance and less stress in your lifestyle as Peats encourages requires a massive lifestyle change for some that just isn't feasible,the gamble then is trying use substance to get close to a resting state after a day in the perfect storm.

The methylation clock is interesting in relation to longevity,it's a small part but relevant.

The term "coherent" must be used very specifically, according to it's physical definition of "Same Frequency. Constant Phase difference".

There is no single "coherent state". All there is are:

- connections between specific components in the system (be it through collagen meridians, carbon nanotubes, or tubulin fibrils, etc ....),
- which act as a medium for the transfer of signals between connected components,
- and which allow these connected components to very efficiency relay both energy and information about their respective states,
- and thereby make decisions to deal with whatever stimulus they have to respond to

"Coherence" is just a description of being able to maintain this sort of communication over specific frequencies. What these frequencies are, when they should be used, etc ... all unknown by Western scientific standards, and is described in esoteric as all hell fashion in Chinese Medicine (and hence very inaccessible).

A functioning human body consists of systems that move in and out of coherence with each other depending on stimuli and other factors (like circadian rhythms -- Circadian rhythms and cancer: potential mechanisms <== read this for the circadian rhythm and cancer link)

We should not attribute anything more to the term "coherence" than the above description.

The problem then comes when systems cannot communicate and send compounds / energy between them. As you'd expect, the causes are many fold, and is not possible to describe in this single post.

----

Regarding "resting" and "action" states, I would probably agree that there is a "closed off / desensitised state", where the cell is not as prone to accept inbound signals nor send outbound signals. I personally think that this is the ideal state for intra-cellular activity, but have no proof to back that up.

The reason I don't use "resting state" and "active state" is because I do not want to confuse the terms "action potential" and "resting potential" (which have specific definitions by Gilbert Ling) from the "generally un-responsive state" that the cell that we're making up on the fly right now.​

----

I will say with no proof other than clinical experience and thousands of years of Chinese Medicine, that the "pipes" that transport energy through the body are:
- The collagen meridian system (as documented by the Chinese)
- Muscle Fascia (whole thing is important)
- Blood and Lymph

The drivers of energy are then the various organs.

Lack of flow can be due to:
(a) lack of driving force
(b) lack of pipe capacity (for whatever reason .... pipe burst, pipe blocked, pipe too crowded, etc ...)

I can't really say which is a more common failure route, but as usual, it is probably both that are at play.

This is where my friend Dr Josh Lamaro will say, "your posture is horrible, no wonder your liver doesn't work ..... obvious!"

And that brings into the picture a whole can of worms ..... because now we involve Neuromuscular coordination, sarcopenia in the old (which I view as adaptive), existing injuries, etc .... on top of all the stuff regarding metabolism and what not. I will not talk about any of this in this post.

-----

If we believe that longevity and health are a product of environmental stimulus, then that means that we have to adapt both the internal and external environment to one that isn't going to put un-recoverable stress on our system. (note that I consider dietary interventions part of "internal environment modulators")

Some external environments are not recoverable from. I cited the Bill Lagakos article earlier, and it is clear that shift work is one of those fundamentally-disruptive-to-biology stressors.

How to deal with sub-optimal environments is something that then becomes such an idiosyncratic practice, that I can't really comment on without it being considered medical advice (which I am not allowed to give )

----

Finally, methylation is such a complex topic, and I have no idea how to approach it from an analytical perspective. Clinically, there are some interventions I know to test for, but to formulate new insights? Very hard .....

My favourite article on this topic to date -- Aging, health and disease – view from the DNA Methylome | AGINGSCIENCES™ – Anti-Aging Firewalls™ . Very long, very detailed, some basic conclusions regarding how global hypomethylation and specific hypermethylation can cause defects, but nothing really definitive.

This is off topic, but do you think delivering ATP directly to cells would be a good idea? Liposomal ATP? Probably not, but still. I wanna hear your thoughts.

What about disease? If longevity is not dependent so much on high metabolism as it is on "efficient" one, what's your stance on pathologies like diabetes and cancer? Do you also think there is optimal metabolic level too and stimulating metabolism is not wise approach?

Addressing these two together since they are related.

Adding exogenous ATP is probably not going to do anything at all. The typical rule of thumb is that you turnover about your bodymass in ATP a day (that is, a 70kg man turns over 70kg of ATP a day, with each molecule being shuttled back and forth between ATP and ADP many times).

Can we actually add so much exogenous ATP, in the cells that actually need it, as to make a significant contribution to this relative massive need? I personally don't think so, and have not seen exogenous ATP treatments work.

In the case of cancer, which can clearly be triggered by ATP depletion, I doubt exogenous ATP will reset enough cells back to a non-oncogenic phenotype. The problem in cancer is a loss of cell intelligence which comes directly as a result of a loss of metabolic capacity. The cell is then stuck in "primitive proliferative programs" after being significant stressed for whatever reason.

Again, I will refer to him many many times, but Guenter Albrecht-Buehler's work on cell intelligence is some of the most fundamentally ground-breaking work out there -- http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM . It establishes the basics of the metabolism<=>intelligence link, but more of such research has not been done.​

Energetic stress is probably the main cause for the cell adopting this phenotype, but as we all know, fixing a bad situation is much harder than just patching up the original crack ..... all the damage that has already spilled over needs to be cleaned up as well.

eg: you need to gather all the rowdy cells, patch up the botched enzymatic pathways and other damaged machinery is as many of those cells as possible, kill the cells that are beyond saving, and then and only then provide them with enough energy to get back to working like healthy, differentiated cells.

Mina Bissell's work with breast cancer has clearly shown that many a time, this is not an issue with gross energetic production -- you can take a set of cancer cells, give them nutrients, and they continue being cancer cells. But put enough healthy cells to form a quorum that overrides the signalling of said cancer cells, and suddenly the cancer is gone, despite nothing else being changed.

Again, this is clearly a communication problem, whereby some set of cells go rouge, failed to obey established protocols, and eventually establish a large enough of a blob to cause systemic damage.

Methods like using testosterone to fix prostate cancer is simply forcing a signal to cells to get them back to the differentiated phenotype once again.
Methods like using Methylene Blue and certain frequencies of Red Light to free Cyt C Oxidase will work for cases whereby enzymatic complexes are not completely broken.
Methods like wide spectrum red light therapy were described here -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA


"Stimulating metabolism" then is only good insofar as it means bringing back ATP levels to non-pathological levels, and keeping them there. And as we see, this is only one part of a spectrum of adaptations that are needed to maintain the healthy, differentiated state of cells.

I still hold to the idea that communication is the main problem, and a lack of consensus is what causes cells to go rouge. There are clearly states that we go through every day which demands lesser energy usage -- sleep for one, and this is achieved by the forced consensus inflicted upon the body by the night time environment (unless it is disrupted, then bad things start to happen). In other words, all cells in a system communicating and agreeing upon a low energy state is not pathological.

-----

Diabetes has a separate cause altogether. Chris Masterjohn talked about this here, and I agree with the conclusions -- When Fat People Can’t Get Fat Enough and Lean People Get Fat in All the Wrong Places

Diabetes is a case of cellular energy overload, and a resistance to uptake any more nutrients. Ensuring the overload state does not happen chronically is key to preventing this resistance to deal with free substrate. This is a case of "more energy than needed is not good".

....

 

[haidut]

Again, this is clearly a communication problem

Exactly. So, given that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cellular messengers I don't think it is prudent or even achievable to chase each one of them down individually? Steroids are probably the primary category of messengers, and the example with testosterone is pretty relevant I think. Prostate cancer is not the only cancer that has been shown to respond dramatically to such therapy. Before there the AI drugs appeared, women with breast, uterine, and ovarian cancer were treated with DHT and some of its synthetic analogs. Same with men having lung, gastric and connective tissue cancers. If you look at the older studies (the ones for the female patients at least) they show dramatic response rates of 60% - 80% and in most of these cases the cancer never returned. Secondary cancer was almost unheard of until the 1980s. You either recovered from cancer with the steroid treatment or it progressed and killed the host. My point is that while using steroids for treatment is probably still relevant, the master conductor of all such messengers is probably T3. So, instead of chasing down each messenger, why not try to tweak the conductor?
I am not sure I agree with diabetes being energetic overload issue. Again, there are human studies showing complete reversal of diabetes (type II) with T3, aspirin, gelatin, caffeine, taurine, etc. It's hard to argue that the mechanism of action for these chemicals is not energetic stimulation. Cellular communication also breaks down in diabetes, not just in cancer, and the quorum method has been shown to work for reversing it just as in cancer. Instead of trying to look at each condition separately, which could work but is probably intractable in practice, why not focus on the one (or few) master controllers of the quorum? T3, ATP, CO2, insulin, etc are a few of the main ones that come to mind but the latter two depend on T3.
So far, at least it seems to me, the evidence points to ALL disease being due to disturbance of electron flow from food to O2. Of course, simply stimulating more flow when there is a step or two with major roadblocks is not a wise strategy. But the steps where electron flow can get blocked are not that many. PDH is a major one, succinate dehydrogenase is a second one, and cytochrome C is the other. So, ensuring proper electron flow (and not just stimulating metabolism) while also making sure the environmental reason for the blockage is removed is where it seems to be at for pretty much any disease. T3 happens to activate/clear all 3 of these roadblocks, and the cells that are beyond repair simply get overstimulated and die. This was recently confirmed by an animal study with breast cancer where the aspirin reverted the cancer cell phenotype back to normal, and "killed" the cells that were too damaged to be restored to normal.
Aspirin stops breast cancer; reprograms cancer cells into normal

Lithium has been shown to act the same way in the brain - it restores mitochondrial function or kills the cells that cannot be restored.
Sodium, Lithium, Parkinson's

I think the parallels between cancer and diabetes are way too many to treat these as somehow separate conditions. Cancer seems to be just a more extreme version of diabetes. Both conditions are dominated by preference of cells for fat oxidation.
Achilles Heel Of Cancer Found - Its Addiction To Fat

So, it would be interesting to see a trial of something like Mildronate and aspirin for any cancer.
Finally, the primary environmental messenger of stress that puts cells in a disorganized communication state is serotonin. It is not a coincidence that development of cancer requires a serotonin (5-HT2B) receptor and blocking that receptor is so beneficial.
The Serotonin Receptor 5-HT2B Is Required For Cancer; Can Be Blocked

I think you also said something along those lines in the thread on bromocriptine and breast cancer.
LSD-derivatives Like Bromocriptine Can Fully Cure Breast Cancer

So, would simply giving T3 cure disease? Possibly yes for many conditions except cancer. For cancer, T3, fat oxidation inhibitor, and a de-stressor (like a serotonin antagonist or dopamine agonist), possibly in very high doses is what seems to be needed to restore the proper quorum. Correct me if I am wrong, but to have proper cellular communication proper oxidative metabolism is needed. So, the deranged communication maybe a cause BUT also is a result of the deranged metabolism. As such, stimulating respiration is probably a viable (albeit partial) approach in all cases.
So far I have not seen evidence refuting that such an approach would work. That's how it works in science, right - by refutation. So far, there has been none. Yes, it seems very complicated and there is plenty more to learn as it is an open system. But to say "we have no idea" as to how to reverse many of these serious conditions is too strong of a statement IMO.
Just my 2c.

 

[Drareg]

Exactly. So, given that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cellular messengers I don't think it is prudent or even achievable to chase each one of them down individually? Steroids are probably the primary category of messengers, and the example with testosterone is pretty relevant I think. Prostate cancer is not the only cancer that has been shown to respond dramatically to such therapy. Before there the AI drugs appeared, women with breast, uterine, and ovarian cancer were treated with DHT and some of its synthetic analogs. Same with men having lung, gastric and connective tissue cancers. If you look at the older studies (the ones for the female patients at least) they show dramatic response rates of 60% - 80% and in most of these cases the cancer never returned. Secondary cancer was almost unheard of until the 1980s. You either recovered from cancer with the steroid treatment or it progressed and killed the host. My point is that while using steroids for treatment is probably still relevant, the master conductor of all such messengers is probably T3. So, instead of chasing down each messenger, why not try to tweak the conductor?
I am not sure I agree with diabetes being energetic overload issue. Again, there are human studies showing complete reversal of diabetes (type II) with T3, aspirin, gelatin, caffeine, taurine, etc. It's hard to argue that the mechanism of action for these chemicals is not energetic stimulation. Cellular communication also breaks down in diabetes, not just in cancer, and the quorum method has been shown to work for reversing it just as in cancer. Instead of trying to look at each condition separately, which could work but is probably intractable in practice, why not focus on the one (or few) master controllers of the quorum? T3, ATP, CO2, insulin, etc are a few of the main ones that come to mind but the latter two depend on T3.
So far, at least it seems to me, the evidence points to ALL disease being due to disturbance of electron flow from food to O2. Of course, simply stimulating more flow when there is a step or two with major roadblocks is not a wise strategy. But the steps where electron flow can get blocked are not that many. PDH is a major one, succinate dehydrogenase is a second one, and cytochrome C is the other. So, ensuring proper electron flow (and not just stimulating metabolism) while also making sure the environmental reason for the blockage is removed is where it seems to be at for pretty much any disease. T3 happens to activate/clear all 3 of these roadblocks, and the cells that are beyond repair simply get overstimulated and die. This was recently confirmed by an animal study with breast cancer where the aspirin reverted the cancer cell phenotype back to normal, and "killed" the cells that were too damaged to be restored to normal.
Aspirin stops breast cancer; reprograms cancer cells into normal

Lithium has been shown to act the same way in the brain - it restores mitochondrial function or kills the cells that cannot be restored.
Sodium, Lithium, Parkinson's

I think the parallels between cancer and diabetes are way too many to treat these as somehow separate conditions. Cancer seems to be just a more extreme version of diabetes. Both conditions are dominated by preference of cells for fat oxidation.
Achilles Heel Of Cancer Found - Its Addiction To Fat

So, it would be interesting to see a trial of something like Mildronate and aspirin for any cancer.
Finally, the primary environmental messenger of stress that puts cells in a disorganized communication state is serotonin. It is not a coincidence that development of cancer requires a serotonin receptor and blocking that receptor is so beneficial.
The Serotonin Receptor 5-HT2B Is Required For Cancer; Can Be Blocked

I think you also said something along those lines in the thread on bromocriptine and breast cancer.
LSD-derivatives Like Bromocriptine Can Fully Cure Breast Cancer

So, would simply giving T3 cure disease? Possibly yes for many conditions except cancer. For cancer, T3, fat oxidation inhibitor, and a de-stressor (like a serotonin antagonist or dopamine agonist), possibly in very high doses is what seems to be needed to restore the proper quorum. Correct me if I am wrong, but to have proper cellular communication proper oxidative metabolism is needed. So, the deranged communication maybe a cause BUT also is a result of the deranged metabolism. As such, stimulating respiration is probably a viable (albeit partial) approach in all cases.
So far I have not seen evidence refuting that such an approach would work. That's how it works in science, right - by refutation. So far, there has been none. Yes, it seems very complicated and there is plenty more to learn as it is an open system. But to say "we have no idea" as to how to reverse many of these serious conditions is too strong of a statement IMO.
Just my 2c.

T3 is relatively harmless in a lose dose like Peat recommended ,1mcg per hour for delicate states,an example is after a heart transplant,if the scare mongering about T3 blowing metabolism through the roof we couldn't do this surely?
Many people don't even notice to T3 in low doses. For me it was the least noticeable supplement,where I did notice it was mentally,I reacted less negatively to sudden changes in work throughout the day,I would says its so subtle that your performance level needs to be quite high to pick up on it or the opposite when truly ill.

 

[Drareg]

The term "coherent" must be used very specifically, according to it's physical definition of "Same Frequency. Constant Phase difference".

There is no single "coherent state". All there is are:

- connections between specific components in the system (be it through collagen meridians, carbon nanotubes, or tubulin fibrils, etc ....),
- which act as a medium for the transfer of signals between connected components,
- and which allow these connected components to very efficiency relay both energy and information about their respective states,
- and thereby make decisions to deal with whatever stimulus they have to respond to

"Coherence" is just a description of being able to maintain this sort of communication over specific frequencies. What these frequencies are, when they should be used, etc ... all unknown by Western scientific standards, and is described in esoteric as all hell fashion in Chinese Medicine (and hence very inaccessible).

A functioning human body consists of systems that move in and out of coherence with each other depending on stimuli and other factors (like circadian rhythms -- Circadian rhythms and cancer: potential mechanisms <== read this for the circadian rhythm and cancer link)

We should not attribute anything more to the term "coherence" than the above description.

The problem then comes when systems cannot communicate and send compounds / energy between them. As you'd expect, the causes are many fold, and is not possible to describe in this single post.

----

Regarding "resting" and "action" states, I would probably agree that there is a "closed off / desensitised state", where the cell is not as prone to accept inbound signals nor send outbound signals. I personally think that this is the ideal state for intra-cellular activity, but have no proof to back that up.

The reason I don't use "resting state" and "active state" is because I do not want to confuse the terms "action potential" and "resting potential" (which have specific definitions by Gilbert Ling) from the "generally un-responsive state" that the cell that we're making up on the fly right now.​

----

I will say with no proof other than clinical experience and thousands of years of Chinese Medicine, that the "pipes" that transport energy through the body are:
- The collagen meridian system (as documented by the Chinese)
- Muscle Fascia (whole thing is important)
- Blood and Lymph

The drivers of energy are then the various organs.

Lack of flow can be due to:
(a) lack of driving force
(b) lack of pipe capacity (for whatever reason .... pipe burst, pipe blocked, pipe too crowded, etc ...)

I can't really say which is a more common failure route, but as usual, it is probably both that are at play.

This is where my friend Dr Josh Lamaro will say, "your posture is horrible, no wonder your liver doesn't work ..... obvious!"

And that brings into the picture a whole can of worms ..... because now we involve Neuromuscular coordination, sarcopenia in the old (which I view as adaptive), existing injuries, etc .... on top of all the stuff regarding metabolism and what not. I will not talk about any of this in this post.

-----

If we believe that longevity and health are a product of environmental stimulus, then that means that we have to adapt both the internal and external environment to one that isn't going to put un-recoverable stress on our system. (note that I consider dietary interventions part of "internal environment modulators")

Some external environments are not recoverable from. I cited the Bill Lagakos article earlier, and it is clear that shift work is one of those fundamentally-disruptive-to-biology stressors.

How to deal with sub-optimal environments is something that then becomes such an idiosyncratic practice, that I can't really comment on without it being considered medical advice (which I am not allowed to give )

----

Finally, methylation is such a complex topic, and I have no idea how to approach it from an analytical perspective. Clinically, there are some interventions I know to test for, but to formulate new insights? Very hard .....

My favourite article on this topic to date -- Aging, health and disease – view from the DNA Methylome | AGINGSCIENCES™ – Anti-Aging Firewalls™ . Very long, very detailed, some basic conclusions regarding how global hypomethylation and specific hypermethylation can cause defects, but nothing really definitive.






Addressing these two together since they are related.

Adding exogenous ATP is probably not going to do anything at all. The typical rule of thumb is that you turnover about your bodymass in ATP a day (that is, a 70kg man turns over 70kg of ATP a day, with each molecule being shuttled back and forth between ATP and ADP many times).

Can we actually add so much exogenous ATP, in the cells that actually need it, as to make a significant contribution to this relative massive need? I personally don't think so, and have not seen exogenous ATP treatments work.

In the case of cancer, which can clearly be triggered by ATP depletion, I doubt exogenous ATP will reset enough cells back to a non-oncogenic phenotype. The problem in cancer is a loss of cell intelligence which comes directly as a result of a loss of metabolic capacity. The cell is then stuck in "primitive proliferative programs" after being significant stressed for whatever reason.

Again, I will refer to him many many times, but Guenter Albrecht-Buehler's work on cell intelligence is some of the most fundamentally ground-breaking work out there -- http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM . It establishes the basics of the metabolism<=>intelligence link, but more of such research has not been done.​

Energetic stress is probably the main cause for the cell adopting this phenotype, but as we all know, fixing a bad situation is much harder than just patching up the original crack ..... all the damage that has already spilled over needs to be cleaned up as well.

eg: you need to gather all the rowdy cells, patch up the botched enzymatic pathways and other damaged machinery is as many of those cells as possible, kill the cells that are beyond saving, and then and only then provide them with enough energy to get back to working like healthy, differentiated cells.

Mina Bissell's work with breast cancer has clearly shown that many a time, this is not an issue with gross energetic production -- you can take a set of cancer cells, give them nutrients, and they continue being cancer cells. But put enough healthy cells to form a quorum that overrides the signalling of said cancer cells, and suddenly the cancer is gone, despite nothing else being changed.

Again, this is clearly a communication problem, whereby some set of cells go rouge, failed to obey established protocols, and eventually establish a large enough of a blob to cause systemic damage.

Methods like using testosterone to fix prostate cancer is simply forcing a signal to cells to get them back to the differentiated phenotype once again.
Methods like using Methylene Blue and certain frequencies of Red Light to free Cyt C Oxidase will work for cases whereby enzymatic complexes are not completely broken.
Methods like wide spectrum red light therapy were described here -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA


"Stimulating metabolism" then is only good insofar as it means bringing back ATP levels to non-pathological levels, and keeping them there. And as we see, this is only one part of a spectrum of adaptations that are needed to maintain the healthy, differentiated state of cells.

I still hold to the idea that communication is the main problem, and a lack of consensus is what causes cells to go rouge. There are clearly states that we go through every day which demands lesser energy usage -- sleep for one, and this is achieved by the forced consensus inflicted upon the body by the night time environment (unless it is disrupted, then bad things start to happen). In other words, all cells in a system communicating and agreeing upon a low energy state is not pathological.

-----

Diabetes has a separate cause altogether. Chris Masterjohn talked about this here, and I agree with the conclusions -- When Fat People Can’t Get Fat Enough and Lean People Get Fat in All the Wrong Places

Diabetes is a case of cellular energy overload, and a resistance to uptake any more nutrients. Ensuring the overload state does not happen chronically is key to preventing this resistance to deal with free substrate. This is a case of "more energy than needed is not good".

....

I would differ on the coherent state,I think there is an underlying similar form between all organs,they can't exist otherwise. It's this platform I speak of.
I think Mae Wan Ho covers some of the following-
Its internal chaos to our perceptions and it's water as the main player,water is almost perfect symmetry this is why we can see through it,anything with true perfect symmetry humans can't perceive. I think the closer we get to perfect symmetry the more chaotic things appear to our perceptions.

The inside of a water is random/chaotic yet it's a perfect sphere on the outside,the randomness creates the surface tension,it seems to organise itself this way when their is enough energy/substance to do it,what does the organising into different areas is possibly the morphogenic field or sound waves we don't know yet but we do know once surfactants go over a certain threshold of chaos in areas they form organised patterns,it seems you have to push them beyond this level.
The surface is where you need the energy most it seems. You don't get the best possible communication on the surface until the density builds up internally.
If all systems want to reach a stable energised state they minimise their surface area, I think if not enough density they may attempt to shrink down,can this explain the macro level?
Vesicles have been shown to change into organised shapes by sound and with temperature.
Erich Sackmann showed the most stable shape of vesicles is the human cell/torus, it became more torus like as temperature increased.


It seems to be also about density,for me this is energy and Peat styled recommendations aim to achieve this,what's doing the shuttling to deferent areas is for arguments sake the morphogenic field or sound waves ,when the kidneys have enough density to form they form and disperse the excess energy accordingly,the area needing more density first gets it first,the morphogenic filed or sounds waves seems to be doing its job,it's a lack of energy to keep the form or play the music being the issue,see the human as an orchestra where some members have been starved and sleep deprived for days and the rest feel great,the tired guys know how to play but just don't have the energy.
If we give the tired guys speed or adderall it will never work as well as sleep.

The blocks you speak of could be an area that is siphoning energy as its loosing form from an injury,if you don't have enough energy coming in the body it can't build up enough density to heal so goes into maintenance mode and most energy goes to this area when you get any energy,you need more energy to heal/rebuild it,it's surface still communicates its issue as its shrinking,there is only so long before you die,this is why they are saying aging is a disease.

Carbon has exceptional symmetry and conducting ability I think.

 

[Peater Piper]

I think the parallels between cancer and diabetes are way too many to treat these as somehow separate conditions. Cancer seems to be just a more extreme version of diabetes. Both conditions are dominated by preference of cells for fat oxidation.
Achilles Heel Of Cancer Found - Its Addiction To Fat

I created a post discussing beta oxidation and diabetes. It seems, at least in some cases, it's not a preference of cells to burn fat, it's actually an inability to efficiently burn fat. The cells still desire glucose, but insulin signaling is impaired by the byproducts of incomplete fatty acid oxidation, which leaves them stuck trying to burn fat, which they can't properly use. There's also some evidence that the earliest symptom of metabolic dysfunction in healthy relatives of type 2 diabetics begins with an inability to switch efficiently from glucose oxidation to beta oxidation.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-oxidation-or-excessive-beta-oxidation.12459/

 

[BigYellowLemon]

The term "coherent" must be used very specifically, according to it's physical definition of "Same Frequency. Constant Phase difference".

There is no single "coherent state". All there is are:

- connections between specific components in the system (be it through collagen meridians, carbon nanotubes, or tubulin fibrils, etc ....),
- which act as a medium for the transfer of signals between connected components,
- and which allow these connected components to very efficiency relay both energy and information about their respective states,
- and thereby make decisions to deal with whatever stimulus they have to respond to

"Coherence" is just a description of being able to maintain this sort of communication over specific frequencies. What these frequencies are, when they should be used, etc ... all unknown by Western scientific standards, and is described in esoteric as all hell fashion in Chinese Medicine (and hence very inaccessible).

A functioning human body consists of systems that move in and out of coherence with each other depending on stimuli and other factors (like circadian rhythms -- Circadian rhythms and cancer: potential mechanisms <== read this for the circadian rhythm and cancer link)

We should not attribute anything more to the term "coherence" than the above description.

The problem then comes when systems cannot communicate and send compounds / energy between them. As you'd expect, the causes are many fold, and is not possible to describe in this single post.

----

Regarding "resting" and "action" states, I would probably agree that there is a "closed off / desensitised state", where the cell is not as prone to accept inbound signals nor send outbound signals. I personally think that this is the ideal state for intra-cellular activity, but have no proof to back that up.

The reason I don't use "resting state" and "active state" is because I do not want to confuse the terms "action potential" and "resting potential" (which have specific definitions by Gilbert Ling) from the "generally un-responsive state" that the cell that we're making up on the fly right now.​

----

I will say with no proof other than clinical experience and thousands of years of Chinese Medicine, that the "pipes" that transport energy through the body are:
- The collagen meridian system (as documented by the Chinese)
- Muscle Fascia (whole thing is important)
- Blood and Lymph

The drivers of energy are then the various organs.

Lack of flow can be due to:
(a) lack of driving force
(b) lack of pipe capacity (for whatever reason .... pipe burst, pipe blocked, pipe too crowded, etc ...)

I can't really say which is a more common failure route, but as usual, it is probably both that are at play.

This is where my friend Dr Josh Lamaro will say, "your posture is horrible, no wonder your liver doesn't work ..... obvious!"

And that brings into the picture a whole can of worms ..... because now we involve Neuromuscular coordination, sarcopenia in the old (which I view as adaptive), existing injuries, etc .... on top of all the stuff regarding metabolism and what not. I will not talk about any of this in this post.

-----

If we believe that longevity and health are a product of environmental stimulus, then that means that we have to adapt both the internal and external environment to one that isn't going to put un-recoverable stress on our system. (note that I consider dietary interventions part of "internal environment modulators")

Some external environments are not recoverable from. I cited the Bill Lagakos article earlier, and it is clear that shift work is one of those fundamentally-disruptive-to-biology stressors.

How to deal with sub-optimal environments is something that then becomes such an idiosyncratic practice, that I can't really comment on without it being considered medical advice (which I am not allowed to give )

----

Finally, methylation is such a complex topic, and I have no idea how to approach it from an analytical perspective. Clinically, there are some interventions I know to test for, but to formulate new insights? Very hard .....

My favourite article on this topic to date -- Aging, health and disease – view from the DNA Methylome | AGINGSCIENCES™ – Anti-Aging Firewalls™ . Very long, very detailed, some basic conclusions regarding how global hypomethylation and specific hypermethylation can cause defects, but nothing really definitive.






Addressing these two together since they are related.

Adding exogenous ATP is probably not going to do anything at all. The typical rule of thumb is that you turnover about your bodymass in ATP a day (that is, a 70kg man turns over 70kg of ATP a day, with each molecule being shuttled back and forth between ATP and ADP many times).

Can we actually add so much exogenous ATP, in the cells that actually need it, as to make a significant contribution to this relative massive need? I personally don't think so, and have not seen exogenous ATP treatments work.

In the case of cancer, which can clearly be triggered by ATP depletion, I doubt exogenous ATP will reset enough cells back to a non-oncogenic phenotype. The problem in cancer is a loss of cell intelligence which comes directly as a result of a loss of metabolic capacity. The cell is then stuck in "primitive proliferative programs" after being significant stressed for whatever reason.

Again, I will refer to him many many times, but Guenter Albrecht-Buehler's work on cell intelligence is some of the most fundamentally ground-breaking work out there -- http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/g-buehler/FRAME.HTM . It establishes the basics of the metabolism<=>intelligence link, but more of such research has not been done.​

Energetic stress is probably the main cause for the cell adopting this phenotype, but as we all know, fixing a bad situation is much harder than just patching up the original crack ..... all the damage that has already spilled over needs to be cleaned up as well.

eg: you need to gather all the rowdy cells, patch up the botched enzymatic pathways and other damaged machinery is as many of those cells as possible, kill the cells that are beyond saving, and then and only then provide them with enough energy to get back to working like healthy, differentiated cells.

Mina Bissell's work with breast cancer has clearly shown that many a time, this is not an issue with gross energetic production -- you can take a set of cancer cells, give them nutrients, and they continue being cancer cells. But put enough healthy cells to form a quorum that overrides the signalling of said cancer cells, and suddenly the cancer is gone, despite nothing else being changed.

Again, this is clearly a communication problem, whereby some set of cells go rouge, failed to obey established protocols, and eventually establish a large enough of a blob to cause systemic damage.

Methods like using testosterone to fix prostate cancer is simply forcing a signal to cells to get them back to the differentiated phenotype once again.
Methods like using Methylene Blue and certain frequencies of Red Light to free Cyt C Oxidase will work for cases whereby enzymatic complexes are not completely broken.
Methods like wide spectrum red light therapy were described here -- Haidut's Summary Of PUFA


"Stimulating metabolism" then is only good insofar as it means bringing back ATP levels to non-pathological levels, and keeping them there. And as we see, this is only one part of a spectrum of adaptations that are needed to maintain the healthy, differentiated state of cells.

I still hold to the idea that communication is the main problem, and a lack of consensus is what causes cells to go rouge. There are clearly states that we go through every day which demands lesser energy usage -- sleep for one, and this is achieved by the forced consensus inflicted upon the body by the night time environment (unless it is disrupted, then bad things start to happen). In other words, all cells in a system communicating and agreeing upon a low energy state is not pathological.

-----

Diabetes has a separate cause altogether. Chris Masterjohn talked about this here, and I agree with the conclusions -- When Fat People Can’t Get Fat Enough and Lean People Get Fat in All the Wrong Places

Diabetes is a case of cellular energy overload, and a resistance to uptake any more nutrients. Ensuring the overload state does not happen chronically is key to preventing this resistance to deal with free substrate. This is a case of "more energy than needed is not good".

....

***t I forget about that, that's a crazy amount of ATP.

Good post.

 

[tyw]

@haidut

What you say is valid. Our disagreement is in a matter of perspective, with myself taking a much more fundamentalist approach to disease of metabolism. I will then think that all the things you describe are management strategies that do not get to the root cause of a disease like cancer.

So when you say:

So far, at least it seems to me, the evidence points to ALL disease being due to disturbance of electron flow from food to O2.

I will agree.

But when you say:

But the steps where electron flow can get blocked are not that many

This is where I disagree, and the possible blockages are numerous and hard to account for.

The fundamental question that needs to be answered is the one I raised in a previous post -- https://raypeatforum.com/community/...s-insulin-resistance.12212/page-6#post-170614

Metabolism stimulates Cell Intelligence, and Cell Intelligence permits better metabolism. Yet metabolism is Broken. WTF? ​

There must be a stressor that affects a substantial amount of cells, causing them to fail to a de-differentiated state, and then being able to establish a quorum to dominate over any healthy cells which would otherwise keep them in check.

Attacking a cell via hormonal disruption is too high level of a stressor to cause this sort of fundamental shift in cell programming. You have to attack the very basics of metabolism, at base enzymatic pathways, DNA damage, methylation disregulation, etc .... In the linked post, I claim that infections are a big deal in causing such metabolism disruption. Likewise, stuff like ionizing radiation will lead to damage to a cell at its basic component level, and if severe enough, will lead to either Apoptosis or Oncogenesis. (Let's assume that there is no more energy left for autophagy)

And still, when presented with this choice between Apoptosis or Oncogenesis, why does a cell choose one path over the other? We can say for sure that the external environment of that cell affects this decision, and that the other cells around this cell constitute an important factor in this environment (and most likely, these neighbouring cells are the most important factor, seeing at how effective Stem Cell therapy works).

And again, infection risk is huge, and some countries are plagued with this more so than others (with the US suffering heavy risk).


All management strategies are useful. I am just a pedantic idiot who wants more than just management strategies , an in that pedantic realm, nope, we have no idea how and why at what causes this failure of metabolism.

----

@Drareg -- I will not disagree. I just don't think that this overall coherence is important in the realm of maintaining good health outcomes. Note that I am biased towards the Chinese Medicine map of the organs and meridians, and there are clear channels for regulation and dysfunction to happen. Maybe for ultimate enlightenment, one needs to "a thoroughly coherent whole", but for health, I'm just concerned about efficient cycling of energy from the various organs, and the asynchronous communication mechanisms that exist between those organs.

I used to discuss such potential physical concepts a lot on the Jack Kruse forum. Now I just speculate on what is directly useful (like the above discussion on metabolism), and don't really worry too much about finding out the truth about everything.

......

 

[tca300]

Diabetes is a case of cellular energy overload, and a resistance to uptake any more nutrients. Ensuring the overload state does not happen chronically is key to preventing this resistance to deal with free substrate. This is a case of "more energy than needed is not good".

Haha what!? My wifes grandmother is a Skelton at a whopping 75lbs, and has never over eaten, yet she is diabetic, my grandmother on my mothers side is very skinny and yet, is diabetic, and to finish, my father who is 48 years old is 120lbs of skeleton, never hit over 150lbs his whole life, and is diabetic. I've bulked up to 210lbs before at 5'9" heavily overeating for several years, and never had blood sugar problems, my 74 year old grandma on my fathers side is only 5'2" and weighs 215lbs and has normal blood sugar. To conclude overweight people and or people overeating are the only ones who are diabetic is ridiculous. Although I shouldn't be surprised since it seems like with your personal opinion maintaining a particular body fat % seems to be the alpha and omega of health, which is overly simplistic, and is not shown to be accurate in a predictable way in reality.

 

[tyw]

Haha what!? My wifes grandmother is a Skelton at a whopping 75lbs, and has never over eaten, yet she is diabetic, my grandmother on my mothers side is very skinny and yet, is diabetic, and to finish, my father who is 48 years old is 120lbs of skeleton, never hit over 150lbs his whole life, and is diabetic. I've bulked up to 210lbs before at 5'9" heavily overeating for several years, and never had blood sugar problems, my 74 year old grandma on my fathers side is only 5'2" and weights 215lbs and has normal blood sugar. To conclude overweight people and or people overeating are the only ones who are diabetic is ridiculous. Although I shouldn't be surprised since it seems like with your personal opinion maintaining a particular body fat % seems to be the alpha and omega of health, which is overly simplistic, and is not shown to be accurate in a predictable way in reality.

Listen to Masterjohn's podcast. "Cellular Energy Overload" does not necessarily have anything to do with body mass nor body fat percentage.

.....

 

[haidut]

I created a post discussing beta oxidation and diabetes. It seems, at least in some cases, it's not a preference of cells to burn fat, it's actually an inability to efficiently burn fat. The cells still desire glucose, but insulin signaling is impaired by the byproducts of incomplete fatty acid oxidation, which leaves them stuck trying to burn fat, which they can't properly use. There's also some evidence that the earliest symptom of metabolic dysfunction in healthy relatives of type 2 diabetics begins with an inability to switch efficiently from glucose oxidation to beta oxidation.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-oxidation-or-excessive-beta-oxidation.12459/

I like the post. But here is a question. How come anti-serotonin drugs can reverse type II diabetes? Their effect is not really on improving fat oxidation but on restoring fast metabolism in general. Serotonin is the primary brake on metabolism and anything that opposes it is anti-diabetic and anti-cancer. I think it is not so much a hampered beta oxidation as it is hampered oxidation period. Removing the brake on oxidation usually reverses the pathology.

 

[Peater Piper]

I like the post. But here is a question. How come anti-serotonin drugs can reverse type II diabetes? Their effect is not really on improving fat oxidation but on restoring fast metabolism in general. Serotonin is the primary brake on metabolism and anything that opposes it is anti-diabetic and anti-cancer. I think it is not so much a hampered beta oxidation as it is hampered oxidation period. Removing the brake on oxidation usually reverses the pathology.

Well you're getting out of the range of what I've researched in terms of anti-serotonin drugs, but I do agree with your final point.