Link Between PCOS And Testosterone

[StrongMom]

Does anyone know why women with PCOS tend to high testosterone? The classic explain is that women with PCOS tend to have insulin resistance and insulin induces ovaries to produce testosterone. But if you see PCOS as Peat sees as an energy deficiency problem, you do not have to have insulin resistance in order to have PCOS. I think that is the case for me. In that general case, where does testosterone come into play? What is the mechanism? Does anyone have an idea?

Thanks

 

[jaguar43]

Deficiency in thyroid decreases it's conversion to progesterone in the ovaries. Therefore increases the androgens. I think Ray Peat and Broda Barnes said that Women with low thyroid get ovarian cysts.

“Animal experiments show that lack of thyroid hormone can cause cystic ovaries.” -Ray Peat, PhD in “Nutrition for Women”.

“In my own experience, no patient has required a hysterectomy for pathological bleeding unless uterine fibroids were present. If organic problems could be ruled out, as they could in the great majority of cases, thyroid deficiency usually could be detected and treatment with thyroid solved the problem. The need for other surgery may be minimized by adequate thyroid therapy in women with low thyroid function. Cysts on the ovary are common in such women and correction of the thyroid deficiency often eliminates the cysts. Fibroid tumors have been rare in hypothyroid women who have been maintained on adequate thyroid therapy. It is possible to produce fibroids in experimental animals by injection of estrogen, and there is evidence of excess of estrogen in hypothyroid women.” -Dr. Broda Barnes page133 Hypo-thyroidism: the unsuspected illness.

 

[montmorency]

post 99518 The classic explain is that women with PCOS tend to have insulin resistance

Not Peat, but supposedly increasing iodine improves insulin sensitivity, and also tends to counter cysts, so there may be a connection that way.

 

[StrongMom]

First of all, I started this topic after the discussion at:

Some PCOS questions.

That is, I am exploring the PCOS situations without insulin resistance. As Peat sees PCOS as a hypothyroidism symptom, it might be a general energy deficiency problem. I believe my situation applies to that case.

I am trying to understand the mechanics of PCOS, testosterone, thyroids, etc. So, jag2594 thinks that testosterone is being converted to progesterone. This is something I didn't know. Really? Do you have any research discussing that? I would like to read. Thanks

 

[jaguar43]

post 100013 First of all, I started this topic after the discussion at:

Some PCOS questions.

That is, I am exploring the PCOS situations without insulin resistance. As Peat sees PCOS as a hypothyroidism symptom, it might be a general energy deficiency problem. I believe my situation applies to that case.

I am trying to understand the mechanics of PCOS, testosterone, thyroids, etc. So, jag2594 thinks that testosterone is being converted to progesterone. This is something I didn't know. Really? Do you have any research discussing that? I would like to read. Thanks

I think I didn't explain it and well as I could have. What I meant to say is that the lack of progesterone increases testosterone. Ray Peat has said that a decrease in progesterone can lead to increase testosterone ( in women) because progesterone is anti-androgen. Thyroid regulates the conversion cholesterol to the progesterone, therefore the lack of thyroid hormone can cause Polycystic ovarian syndrome. Here is another quote.

PCOS can be produced in animals by removing the thyroid gland. The inability of ovaries to make progesterone without thyroid causes the adrenals to be overstimulated, and they are the source of increased DHEA and other androgens and estrogen.

Ray Peat

http://wiki.raypeatforum.com/index.php/ ... _Exchanges

 

[StrongMom]

Thanks jag2594, so it is the adrenals secreting testosterone, not ovaries.

 

[Giraffe]

The largest amounts of testosterone (>95%) are produced by the testes in men. It is also synthesized in far smaller quantities in women by the thecal cells of the ovaries, by the placenta, as well as by the zona reticularis of the adrenal cortex and even skin in both sexes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

 

[Kray]

Thanks jag2594, so it is the adrenals secreting testosterone, not ovaries.

Hi,

Interested in knowing what happened with your PCOS symptoms and how are you today? What have you changed diet-wise, hormonally, etc? I have daughters with PCOS symptoms, much like what you have described. I don't think theirs is the insulin-resistance thing; we've been Peating for some years so I think our diet is good. Haven't checked out thyroid but was going to suggest they start a progesterone topical. Your thoughts?

Thanks,

 

[haidut]

Actually, in men over 30 the adrenals can provide up to 50% of the testosterone by producing DHEA. Gonads don't work very well without good thyroid. That is why you see many fat-looking but very hairy older men, who look like they are both over-feminized at the core (high estrogen) and over-maculinized on the surface (too much body hair from DHEA).

 

[lvysaur]

Actually, in men over 30 the adrenals can provide up to 50% of the testosterone by producing DHEA. Gonads don't work very well without good thyroid. That is why you see many fat-looking but very hairy older men, who look like they are both over-feminized at the core (high estrogen) and over-maculinized on the surface (too much body hair from DHEA).

For what it's worth, whenever I get very stressed out and anxious, I lose hair and my facial hair grows more. It happens like clockwork.

 

[StrongMom]

Hi,

Interested in knowing what happened with your PCOS symptoms and how are you today? What have you changed diet-wise, hormonally, etc? I have daughters with PCOS symptoms, much like what you have described. I don't think theirs is the insulin-resistance thing; we've been Peating for some years so I think our diet is good. Haven't checked out thyroid but was going to suggest they start a progesterone topical. Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Over time my PCOS turned into amenorrhea unfortunately. I am not having any periods. I am working to increase my metabolism with the hopes that it will help. I have been taking thyroid and pregnenolone; still have not found the ideal combination. For me, I think it is hypoglycemia rather than insulin resistance. That is why i think i am passing the sugar intolerance tests with high stars.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

My anecdotal two cents: I was never diagnosed with PCOS (never missed a period, no cysts etc.), but I went in to see the doc for hormone testing because I had very bad acne and grew a beard!!! My lab results showed very high DHEA, high cortisol and low thyroid. A good diet, more thyroid meds and LOTS of Progest-E has stopped this particular tailspin.

 

[Kray]

Over time my PCOS turned into amenorrhea unfortunately. I am not having any periods. I am working to increase my metabolism with the hopes that it will help. I have been taking thyroid and pregnenolone; still have not found the ideal combination. For me, I think it is hypoglycemia rather than insulin resistance. That is why i think i am passing the sugar intolerance tests with high stars.

And you haven't tried progesterone yet? Would the added progesterone help boost the thyroid function to help with overall improvement?

 

[StrongMom]

And you haven't tried progesterone yet? Would the added progesterone help boost the thyroid function to help with overall improvement?

I was using progesterone at very high dosage and in the meantime had an abnormal bone growth in my foot. I don't know if related or not; a bit scared I decided to switch to pregnenolone as it is being converted to progesterone in the body. I thought this way I might avoid overdoing progesterone.

My problem is low metabolism so I have been working on it. RP says that if progesterone is not helping with PCOS even at high doses you should work on thyroid and diet. That is what I am trying to do.

 

[Kray]

I was using progesterone at very high dosage and in the meantime had an abnormal bone growth in my foot. I don't know if related or not; a bit scared I decided to switch to pregnenolone as it is being converted to progesterone in the body. I thought this way I might avoid overdoing progesterone.

My problem is low metabolism so I have been working on it. RP says that if progesterone is not helping with PCOS even at high doses you should work on thyroid and diet. That is what I am trying to do.

Yes, I seem to remember something about working thyroid first if you suspect it's low. Is it clear that pregnenolone always converts to progesterone in women? I never came away being 100% on that. Can I ask how you're taking the preg-- oral or topical? How long, and have you noticed thyroid improvement yet? My husband is taking the Pansterone, but I've been a little hesitant because of the DHEA, so I found a sublingual 5mg. I still only take that occasionally, as I sometimes feel a little too wired after taking pregnenolone. I may suggest to my daughters to start with pregnenolone rather than starting with progesterone.

Thanks,

 

[StrongMom]

Yes, I seem to remember something about working thyroid first if you suspect it's low. Is it clear that pregnenolone always converts to progesterone in women? I never came away being 100% on that. Can I ask how you're taking the preg-- oral or topical? How long, and have you noticed thyroid improvement yet? My husband is taking the Pansterone, but I've been a little hesitant because of the DHEA, so I found a sublingual 5mg. I still only take that occasionally, as I sometimes feel a little too wired after taking pregnenolone. I may suggest to my daughters to start with pregnenolone rather than starting with progesterone.

Thanks,

I don't know if it's always converted to progesterone but it seems to be converted in my case. I am taking it oral; I am not using haidut's; the one I am taking iis powdered form. Pregnenolone doesn't affect me much; no wired or sleepy feeling.

I think first you should make sure your daughters' metabolisms are good; RP sees PCOS as a thyroid/metabolism problem.

 

[Kray]

I don't know if it's always converted to progesterone but it seems to be converted in my case. I am taking it oral; I am not using haidut's; the one I am taking iis powdered form. Pregnenolone doesn't affect me much; no wired or sleepy feeling.

I think first you should make sure your daughters' metabolisms are good; RP sees PCOS as a thyroid/metabolism problem.

How much pregnenolone do you take?

 

[StrongMom]

How much pregnenolone do you take?

My situation is quite severe; I don't think your daughters' are comparable. My dosage is really high:500mg per day.

 

[StrongMom]

Actually, in men over 30 the adrenals can provide up to 50% of the testosterone by producing DHEA. Gonads don't work very well without good thyroid. That is why you see many fat-looking but very hairy older men, who look like they are both over-feminized at the core (high estrogen) and over-maculinized on the surface (too much body hair from DHEA).

My anecdotal two cents: I was never diagnosed with PCOS (never missed a period, no cysts etc.), but I went in to see the doc for hormone testing because I had very bad acne and grew a beard!!! My lab results showed very high DHEA, high cortisol and low thyroid. A good diet, more thyroid meds and LOTS of Progest-E has stopped this particular tailspin.

So it sounds like DHEA is behind excessive body hair, not testosterone, right? I've never fully understood RP' view on DHEA. Can it be high in PCOS to be protective against estrogen?

 

[thebigpeatowski]

So it sounds like DHEA is behind excessive body hair, not testosterone, right? I've never fully understood RP' view on DHEA. Can it be high in PCOS to be protective against estrogen?

Yep, at least in my situation because my testosterone was not super high.......I think high DHEA is one way a hypothyroid body compensates for not having enough thyroid hormone and then my body was converting some excess DHEA to estrogen too because I was very estrogen dominate.

I'm not entirely certain on all of this...it's my best guess based on my labs and my particular pattern. I really don't know anything about PCOS, I guess I thought it involved too much estrogen and cortisol?