Acne Is Likely Caused By Estrogen, NOT Androgens

[haidut]

Hello all,

I just wanted to put my 2cents in. I have had acne since 20 years old and hasn't stopped until about 6 months ago. I have been in Menopause for 1 1/2 years now, but I just started using progesterone within that time frame too. they say progesterone drops more so then estrogen but come menopause estrogen drops too, but if your ratio is way off you can still be estrogen dominant. I have had awsome skin before that in high school but when I got married I went on birth control pills for only 8 months because I started breaking out and haven't stopped until recently. I had a history of hypothyroidism at that time too (goiter). I also had endometriosis. I also experienced crazy symptoms a year ago when a cyst on my ovary ruptured (only have one, the other was removed, wish I didn't do that, anyway) so now I believe I have just about no more ovary function is why I think I use alot of progesterone. so my point is I think from estrogen dominance but if adrenal excess can cause it that would be my number one cause unless it goes hand in hand with estrogen dominance. I also get chin hairs too.

Thank you

What a coincidence! Did you see this post from today?
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...n-25-may-be-a-sign-of-systemic-disease.14025/

 

[haidut]

Devil's Advocate question: Wouldn't men turn into women as they get older, since estrogen rises ?

I'd say yes, most of them become quite effeminate as they age. Beyond a certain age, probably around 80, there is no hormonal difference between the sexes. Estrogen also rises a lot in critically ill people too and feminizes them as well. I know it's just an N=1 example but do a Google image search for the late Queen singer Freddie Mercury. Some of the picture are quite disturbing, especially just before he passed, but the one striking thing was how effeminate he was in the last months of his life. There is one picture of him that looks like he used eyeliners but is in fact without makeup and just looks like 100% bonafide woman. In his healthier years, he looked like a normal male, body hair and everything. He lost all of the body hair when he got sick and I don't think that was a coincidence.

 

[beachbum]

What a coincidence! Did you see this post from today?
Acne At An Age Older Than 25 May Be A Sign Of Systemic Disease

Yes I did and just reread it. I didn't get the connection at first. I would like to add to the picture about progesterone cream suppose to reduce dht but I notice if I use to much pc my chin hairs get worse and I get some acne, so reading threads on dht I am thinking dht is a good thing. I have learned alot from you all science minded members. when I thought dht was the bad guy I would use dht inhibitors with weird effects. now the more I think about it I truly believe it is estrogen and cortisol. I know the pc lowers cortisol too. so now I am thinking to keep my pc at a certain level no to reduce dht too much but will armotose inhibitor be good to add, would that lower cortisol too. if not what foods lower it. now if I make alot dht does that convert to estrogen.

Thank yooooooou for this site.

 

[bohogirl]

I've been working on a book about acne, sort of in the style as how Danny Roddy writes about hair loss, where my own and Ray's research emulsify into sound logic, and this study is a big foundation in my research and theories, It's the smoking gun for sure. I definitely believe adrenal stress could have a lot to do with it also. When I was younger, anxiety and mental stress's were huge recurring states, and I believe it definitely had a big contribution to my acne for sure. Other things like diet, gut issues, chronic tobacco and marijuana use I'm sure factored into it, (more so gut issues) but poor self image, depression, and anxiety I believe were the largest factors.
Im hoping I can contribute novel ways to eradicate this condition in a sound and effective way.

+1 anxiety and mental stress

Have you found anything that works? Is your acne triggered by certain foods?

 

[Evan]

Sorry this took so long to respond to, Ive tried many things over the years and my skin is finally at the best its been for awhile. I started with juicing which helped when I did it, but i think the big things are the gut and intestinal inflammation/allergies, and mental/emotional stress and anxiety along with general inflammation, lipid peroxidation from degenerated foods.

Activated charcoal at effective doses and times per day in water is a huge help. Aspirin/vitamin E, vitamin A,

@bohogirl

 

[bohogirl]

Sorry this took so long to respond to, Ive tried many things over the years and my skin is finally at the best its been for awhile. I started with juicing which helped when I did it, but i think the big things are the gut and intestinal inflammation/allergies, and mental/emotional stress and anxiety along with general inflammation, lipid peroxidation from degenerated foods.

Activated charcoal at effective doses and times per day in water is a huge help. Aspirin/vitamin E, vitamin A,

@bohogirl

Thanks. When will your book be done?

I have yet to try charcoal. I'm using aspirin now, but probably not at the right dose. I think I will try antibitocs once again, I found when I was doing antibiotics and aspirin at same time, it helped to heal very quickly. If I can heal the breakouts quickly, it won't be as bad trying to figure things out.

 

[bohogirl]

Sorry this took so long to respond to, Ive tried many things over the years and my skin is finally at the best its been for awhile. I started with juicing which helped when I did it, but i think the big things are the gut and intestinal inflammation/allergies, and mental/emotional stress and anxiety along with general inflammation, lipid peroxidation from degenerated foods.

Activated charcoal at effective doses and times per day in water is a huge help. Aspirin/vitamin E, vitamin A,

@bohogirl

Also, what did you do exactly to clear your acne?

 

[beachbum]

Sorry this took so long to respond to, Ive tried many things over the years and my skin is finally at the best its been for awhile. I started with juicing which helped when I did it, but i think the big things are the gut and intestinal inflammation/allergies, and mental/emotional stress and anxiety along with general inflammation, lipid peroxidation from degenerated foods.

Activated charcoal at effective doses and times per day in water is a huge help. Aspirin/vitamin E, vitamin A,

@bohogirl

I was wondering if you think when you become more regular (bathroom wise) would that stir up toxins and give a purge of acne. I became more regular but I find I breakout and my skin seems to be shedding kind of healing thing, hard to explain. What started this I started eating some coconut oil in the morning coffee, not alot 1/2 teaspoon.

Beachbum

 

[TheHound]

Sorry this took so long to respond to, Ive tried many things over the years and my skin is finally at the best its been for awhile. I started with juicing which helped when I did it, but i think the big things are the gut and intestinal inflammation/allergies, and mental/emotional stress and anxiety along with general inflammation, lipid peroxidation from degenerated foods.

Activated charcoal at effective doses and times per day in water is a huge help. Aspirin/vitamin E, vitamin A,

@bohogirl

and what are the effective doses and time for activated charcoal?

 

[tomisonbottom]

Ray wrote several times that acne and its occurrence in "syndromes" like PCOS is an estrogen-driven phenomenon. However, the medical profession is firmly holding onto its dear idea that it is androgens like DHT, DHEA, T, and androsterone that are causing the acne and the insulin resistance in PCOS.
This study found no link between any androgen and acne. It concludes that previous studies linking acne and androgens suffer from methodological flaws - i.e. the population as a whole has very high (50%+) prevalence of acne and other studies have not really been able to isolate a true control group without acne in order to properly compare links between androgens and acne. Now, given that the connection between non-bacterial acne and one or more hormones is pretty well established, what remains is mostly estrogen and progesterone. And given that progesterone is commonly reported to ease acne, estrogen remains as the lone likely culprit as the second study below shows (at least in males).

Acne is not associated with abnormal plasma androgens. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Our data would be consistent with a weak relationship between acne and free DHT. However, it is important that this correlation should not be regarded as implying causation. Male DHT levels are much higher than female levels. Even the males with the lowest acne grades had mean DHT levels of at least three times that of the females with severe acne. Clearly, circulating DHT is not causing acne. However, DHT arises partly by peripheral conversion from testosterone and the results are consistent with greater rates of conversion in skin containing active sebaceous glands."

"...To conclude, there is little evidence that high levels of androgens are responsible for some young people having particularly severe acne. Circulating androgens play, at the most, a permissive role in acne. Much of the published clinical evidence is based upon an unsound experimental approach that fails to recognize the consequences ofthe high prevalence of acne."

Serum hormone levels in men with severe acne. - PubMed - NCBI
"...In order to evaluate the hormonal milieu in young men with severe acne, we measured serum estradiol (E2), total testosterone (T), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S), and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels in sixteen male patients aged 20-30 years with severe acne, including twelve cases of nodular-cystic acne, and in seventeen age-matched normal controls. There were no significant differences in the serum levels of T, FT, DHT, DHEA-S, or SHBG between the patients and the controls, but serum E2 was significantly higher in the patient population. Thus, the hemodynamics of serum androgens in male patients with acne do not seem to differ significantly from that of normal controls. Elevated E2 levels might affect the inflammatory response of acne vulgaris through the release of thymic hormones, as reported in the literature."

Could it be that's because they're only looking at blood levels and not tissue levels of androgens?


What you're saying makes sense to me, except for my experience seems to conflict, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

The only thing that ever worked for my lifelong acne (before I discovered Peat) was Spironolactone.

And it worked REALLY well, but it's known for antagonizing androgens, and increasing estrogen.

So why did raising estrogen (via spironolactone) help in my case?

 

[ddjd]

Ray wrote several times that acne and its occurrence in "syndromes" like PCOS is an estrogen-driven phenomenon. However, the medical profession is firmly holding onto its dear idea that it is androgens like DHT, DHEA, T, and androsterone that are causing the acne and the insulin resistance in PCOS.
This study found no link between any androgen and acne. It concludes that previous studies linking acne and androgens suffer from methodological flaws - i.e. the population as a whole has very high (50%+) prevalence of acne and other studies have not really been able to isolate a true control group without acne in order to properly compare links between androgens and acne. Now, given that the connection between non-bacterial acne and one or more hormones is pretty well established, what remains is mostly estrogen and progesterone. And given that progesterone is commonly reported to ease acne, estrogen remains as the lone likely culprit as the second study below shows (at least in males).

Acne is not associated with abnormal plasma androgens. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Our data would be consistent with a weak relationship between acne and free DHT. However, it is important that this correlation should not be regarded as implying causation. Male DHT levels are much higher than female levels. Even the males with the lowest acne grades had mean DHT levels of at least three times that of the females with severe acne. Clearly, circulating DHT is not causing acne. However, DHT arises partly by peripheral conversion from testosterone and the results are consistent with greater rates of conversion in skin containing active sebaceous glands."

"...To conclude, there is little evidence that high levels of androgens are responsible for some young people having particularly severe acne. Circulating androgens play, at the most, a permissive role in acne. Much of the published clinical evidence is based upon an unsound experimental approach that fails to recognize the consequences ofthe high prevalence of acne."

Serum hormone levels in men with severe acne. - PubMed - NCBI
"...In order to evaluate the hormonal milieu in young men with severe acne, we measured serum estradiol (E2), total testosterone (T), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S), and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels in sixteen male patients aged 20-30 years with severe acne, including twelve cases of nodular-cystic acne, and in seventeen age-matched normal controls. There were no significant differences in the serum levels of T, FT, DHT, DHEA-S, or SHBG between the patients and the controls, but serum E2 was significantly higher in the patient population. Thus, the hemodynamics of serum androgens in male patients with acne do not seem to differ significantly from that of normal controls. Elevated E2 levels might affect the inflammatory response of acne vulgaris through the release of thymic hormones, as reported in the literature."

Nothing to do with Acne but I'm pretty much certain Estrogen is the primary cause of dandruff.

All of the idealabs anti estrogen supplements completely stop my dandruff along with all the other peat tricks

Estrogen is a real bastard

 

[dookie]

@haidut

Your points about people becoming "effeminate" when really sick are interesting. But the question then becomes, how does someone in a really sick condition reverse this? As your probably know, DHEA is more likely to aromatize under stress, and progesterone will lower androgens, so most supplements would probably add to the "estrogenic" or "anti-androgenic" burden, especially in someone who is very sick and fragile. At that point, like in Freddie Mercury's case, what is there left that can be done (if you think anything can be done at all)?

 

[Hairfedup]

Why do I suffer from extreme hair loss but with zero acne ever?

 

[haidut]

@haidut

Your points about people becoming "effeminate" when really sick are interesting. But the question then becomes, how does someone in a really sick condition reverse this? As your probably know, DHEA is more likely to aromatize under stress, and progesterone will lower androgens, so most supplements would probably add to the "estrogenic" or "anti-androgenic" burden, especially in someone who is very sick and fragile. At that point, like in Freddie Mercury's case, what is there left that can be done (if you think anything can be done at all)?

Progesterone will help stop the estrogen/cortisol vicious circle and that is what contributes to feminization the most. In extreme states like that, I would try progesterone + DHT, or progesterone + T. If neither T nor DHT are available then progesterone + androsterone would be my second choice and adding just a small amount of DHEA (2mg-3mg) should potentiate the effects without much risk of aromatization. Cyproheptadine can also be very helpful in extreme cases like that as it would lower cortisol synthesis and block estrogen's effects. That's is why it is used on people with cachexia, including people with HIV. Unfortunately, when Freddie was wasting away to AIDS they did not know much about cypro's beneficial effects for such states.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

In my experience it's primarily caused by high androgens in the presence of low thyroid. (yes you can be in those two states concurrently, at least for a short while). Dropping dairy is a temporary fix, but you really have to restore thyroid hormones to normal levels. Hypothyroidism made my skin look disastrous. I didn't even look that bad as a teen which is the hey-day of acne for nearly everyone.

 

[Momado965]

@haidut what I understood from this is that acne on chest and other body parts is an estrogen and adrenal driven condition. Can pregnenolone be used instead of progestrone in a way that it stops the cycle of stress if not then whats so special about progrstrone that pregnenolone lacks? I have used the combination above fof quite some time now and I still have acne on my chest. What can be done?

 

[Hgreen56]

so this is why most dairy consumers have acne break outs

 

[Vegancrossfit]

so this is why most dairy consumers have acne break outs

estrogen in dairy is very low

 

[SamYo123]

estrogen in dairy is very low

But people still get the break outs

I had 1 cup of milk now I have 2 boil spots on my upper back