Haidut Interview Is fasting worth it? With Georgi Dinkov and CarnivoreMD

[area51puy]

He's a md with a large following and has patients who was claiming sugar has zero benefit and eating only meat is the best thing you can do for your health. There is a big difference between a private individual and a person like him changing their opinions, he has influence and a responsibility not to mislead people, which he did.

He was not knowingly misleading people. At the time like millions of other people, many doctors and scientists and many on this board before discovering peats work thought sugar was bad for your health.

Haidut also thought sugar was bad for him before he discovered peats work . Danny roddy was also on the carnivore diet before discovering peats works.

I thought sugar was bad for you health.

He went were the evidence lead him.

 

[ATP]

He was not knowingly misleading people. At the time like millions of other people, many doctors and scientists and many on this board before discovering peats work thought sugar was bad for your health.

Haidut also thought sugar was bad for him before he discovered peats work . Danny roddy was also on the carnivore diet before discovering peats works.

I thought sugar was bad for you health.

He went were the evidence lead him.

The mainstream opinion and dietary advice for structuring a diet is that the majority of calories should be coming from fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. For a md attempting to convince everyone a carnivore/ketogenic diet is optimal then suddenly opposing their own argument can definitely be considered misleading.

 

[Sapien]

The mainstream opinion and dietary advice for structuring a diet is that the majority of calories should be coming from fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

You claim that him going against the mainstream dietary advice AND being wrong is even worse than just being wrong. The mainstream Western diet has been a failure so looking for alternatives is the reasonable approach to take?

For a md attempting to convince everyone a carnivore/ketogenic diet is optimal

Im not sure for what purpose you keep mentioning that hes an MD. He left his job as an MD.

I am not excusing Paul for his mistakes. This is the only point that we are trying to make:

He was not knowingly misleading people.

 

[ATP]

You claim that him going against the mainstream dietary advice AND being wrong is even worse than just being wrong. The mainstream Western diet has been a failure so looking for alternatives is the reasonable approach to take?

Was in the context of him claiming a unique perspective on diet and then contradicting his own opinion to then agree with the mainstream of recommending carbohydrates.

Im not sure for what purpose you keep mentioning that hes an MD. He left his job as an MD.

He literally starts his videos stating he is a double board certified md as an appeal to authority


View: https://youtu.be/6rvelXwG_Tk

 

[LastingJoy]

Hi,

Paul is partly dishonest, even though he changes his speech, he is dogmatic about many things especially when it is his speech of the moment, he did not mind crushing the point of view of some of the people he was interviewing with with mocking, arrogant intonations, he changed his story several times specifically in the timeline of honey and fruit implementations, once he leaves his previous dogmatic speech to hold a new one, instead of criticizing himself as one of the main cultivators of this dogmatism, he asks his audience "you gotta be open minded, dont be dogmatic" , it is a "mêmes" at this level.

When he claimed to have implemented honey in spite of all his anti fructose/sugar dogma, he said "it is still a carnivore diet, honey is carnivore" you could hear in his intonations that he knew it was partially fallacious as reasoning.

In the period around his saying he implemented fruits, he started to change the term "animal based" when at that point it was already an omnivore diet,
and now he eats dairy products, coconut water, fruit, honey, maple syrup, meat, according to his own speech he had reduced the amount of meat he consumes per day to 1 pound (while continuing to claim that 2 pounds is optimal for men), and this pound of meat he consumes, he said that it is mainly heart, and that he eats much less liver too,

He always calls his diet "animal based" to make money and to distinguish himself from others, when in fact it is an omnivore diet with recommended ratios of foods that are not optimal (ratios that make a massive difference in how the person will feel), in the direction he is going he will no longer eat meat, muscle, raw suet, very few organs or none at all, and he will only eat things like dairy products, fruits, coconut water, honey, maple syrup and occasionally meat.

I don't blame him, i wouldn't expect much different from a stressed influencer, potentially that was eating 2 pounds of meat a day, making money by influencing people.

Now the question I ask myself on this subject is, is Paul's change of speech beneficial to others?

It depends, a "healthy diet" such as an "animal base diet" or a "ray peat diet" has equal potential to be bad or good for people, the most determining factor in the result is, does the person implements this diet with too high a degree of dogmatism, or does the person sufficiently consider the nuances, the context, and their influence on whether a food is good or bad for the person, and is willing to experiment with things that come out of their ideal paradigm.

Paul Saladino's speech despite repeating his mêmes "you gotta do whats works best for you", is not at all optimal as a whole to influence his listeners to give enough consideration to nuances and contexts,

So the general theme, that fruits, dairy products, animal products from healthy animals, honey are foods that may be ideal for humans, good, the way he puts it into perspective, far from optimal.

 

[Sapien]

agree with the mainstream of recommending carbohydrates.

The food pyramid reccomends grains

Ray and Paul do not

The food pyramid reccomend keeping sugars/sweets to less than 5% of carbs

Paul and ray do not

The dietary guidelines reccomend fruits as alow calorie food, not as a source of caloric energy like Paul and Ray do

The dietary guidelines reccomend 4 servings of fruit a day. This equates to only one cup of fruit juice , which is only 111 calories

The dietary guidelines reccomend eating vegtables. Ray and Paul would not


Paul’s current dietary recommendations are literally the polar opposite of the main stream guidelines

 

[Sapien]

animal based

I don’t see why this term bothers you. It is obvious that humans digest animal protein better than plant, and animal nutrients better than plant. It is a reversal of the plant based ideology (beyond meat, anti- farming, etc etc) being pushed to us. What’s wrong with that??

 

[ATP]

He always calls his diet "animal based" to make money and to distinguish himself from others, when in fact it is an omnivore diet with recommended ratios of foods that are not optimal (ratios that make a massive difference in how the person will feel), in the direction he is going he will no longer eat meat, muscle, raw suet, very few organs or none at all, and he will only eat things like dairy products, fruits, coconut water, honey, maple syrup and occasionally meat.

I don't blame him, i wouldn't expect much different from a stressed influencer, potentially that was eating 2 pounds of meat a day, making money by influencing people.

Exactly.

 

[LastingJoy]

I don’t see why this term bothers you. It is obvious that humans digest animal protein better than plant, and animal nutrients better than plant. It is a reversal of the plant based ideology (beyond meat, anti- farming, etc etc) being pushed to us. What’s wrong with that??

Hi, I don't mind the term, I suggest it's partially fraudulent to call his diet "animal-based" rather than "omnivorous" while adjusting the ratio of "animal foods" and "vegetable foods" as much he wants, even when he eats 1 lb of meat a day and potentially less, while eating lots of fruit and coconut water

 

[Sapien]

as one of the main cultivators of this dogmatism

I really don’t see how Paul was being dogmatic.

dogmatism- “the tendency to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true, without consideration of evidence or the opinions of others”

Since the beginning Paul has done things such as debate people he disagreed with.

Having the opinion that a zero carb carnivore diet is the optimal diet for humans then then pushing this message to your audience is not “dogmatic” just because he wrong. Dogmatic would be refusing to look at opposing scientific literature, creating an echo chamber by never debating anyone, etc.

It seems to me Paul have been in search of the Truth since the beginning, and just because he made some wrong turns in his journey doesn’t mean he’s a bad person/ a charlaton. Even in his old videos about keto he’s really delving into research articles to try to explain in laymans terms the science behind his argument. This is the opposite of “dogmatic”

 

[ATP]

The food pyramid reccomends grains

Ray and Paul do not

The food pyramid reccomend keeping sugars/sweets to less than 5% of carbs

Paul and ray do not

The dietary guidelines reccomend fruits as alow calorie food, not as a source of caloric energy like Paul and Ray do

The dietary guidelines reccomend 4 servings of fruit a day. This equates to only one cup of fruit juice , which is only 111 calories

The dietary guidelines reccomend eating vegtables. Ray and Paul would not


Paul’s current dietary recommendations are literally the polar opposite of the main stream guidelines

Not sure why you're unable to understand context. Never mentioned the food pyramid.

 

[Sapien]

animal-based

Hi, I don't mind the term, I suggest it's partially fraudulent to call his diet "animal-based" rather than "omnivorous" while adjusting the ratio of "animal foods" and "vegetable foods" as much he wants, even when he eats 1 lb of meat a day and potentially less, while eating lots of fruit and coconut water

the fact that we as a society have been told that animal fats cause heart disease is good enough reason to call his diet “animal based” in rebuttal to a “plant based” diet

The reason he didn’t stop using this term is because he still eats organs- the most nutrient dense foods on the planet, meat- a very high quality protein with some b vitamins too, and animal fats, the proper fats

This is opposed to the reccomend actions to get our protein from plant sources, nutrients from plants, and fats from plants.

How is that not an animal based diet?

He used to call himself carnivore, meaning only animal foods, now he eats animal based, meaning animal foods make up the basis of his diet.

 

[Sapien]

Not sure why you're unable to understand context. Never mentioned the food pyramid.

Yes you did you said “mainstream dietary advice” which is essentially synonymous with the food pyramid as that is (was) the mainstream dietary advice.

 

[Sapien]

it is still a carnivore diet, honey is carnivore

I agree that his handling of that was terrible. A real apology was warranted. I remember watching that video and was like wtf this dude that told me to eat only meat is eating pure sugar now.

Overall @LastingJoy and @ATP i agree with a lot of your points.

 

[Sapien]

you gotta do whats works best for you

What’s wrong with that?

Sounds like perceive think act to me

 

[ATP]

Yes you did you said “mainstream dietary advice” which is essentially synonymous with the food pyramid as that is (was) the mainstream dietary advice.

Yeah, the collective opinion of the majority is that carbohydrates should be a major part of the diet which he argued against but he now agrees with. Very simple.

 

[Sapien]

Yeah, the
the diet which he argued against but he now agrees with. Very simple.

I don’t think he agrees with eating 60 % of your calories coming from glyphosate ridden, iron fortified, insuligenic, nutrient devoid food…

the collective opinion of the majority

Well the majority of people following the SAD are metabolically unhealthy. Like I said previously it is a very reasonable reaction to go against the mainstream when the mainstream advice is killing people.

I don’t know why you’re criticizing him for this.

Paul saught to find the root cause of chronic disease etc; choosing to take an holistic, eastern approach to health and wellness after his experience in western medicine.

He concluded it was PUFA and carbohydrate.

He was only half right, but does that make him a villain?

 

[ATP]

I don’t think he agrees with eating 60 % of your calories coming from glyphosate ridden, iron fortified, insuligenic, nutrient devoid food…


Well the majority of people following the SAD are metabolically unhealthy. Like I said previously it is a very reasonable reaction to go against the mainstream when the mainstream advice is killing people.

I don’t know why you’re criticizing him for this.

Paul saught to find the root cause of chronic disease etc; choosing to take an holistic, eastern approach to medicine after his experience in western medicine.

He concluded it was PUFA and carbohydrate.

He was only half right, but does that make him a villain?

I wasn't sure if you were just not understanding what I was saying or were intentionally misrepresenting my words but it is now obvious. Let's just agree to disagree. Similar to what Lastingjoy said, my opinion is that he is a hypocritical influencer changing his opinion trying to stay relevant all the while profiting from doing so, and you think he is not, and that's fine.

 

[Jonk]

I wasn't sure if you were just not understanding what I was saying or were intentionally misrepresenting my words but it is now obvious. Let's just agree to disagree. Similar to what Lastingjoy said, my opinion is that he is a hypocritical influencer changing his opinion trying to stay relevant all the while profiting from doing so, and you think he is not, and that's fine.

He's a salesman first that's for sure. Problem with that is he's often giving only part of the truth or half truths. Like "we all know sugar is bad, but organic wild honey is great" or "we all now salt is bad but mineral rich Himalayan salt is great". He can't just speak plain with pros and cons because it won't fit his nutritional aesthetic. With that said, I don't really care. It's good to see more big names moving in the right direction

 

[Sapien]

we all know sugar is bad, but organic wild honey is great

in his defense he did cite actual literature backing up that point Is honey really the same as sugar

It’s still a bad take, and demonstrates some “appeal to nature” fallacious ideology

From my interpretation this statement demonstrates an error in logic rather than a flaw in character.

I get your point, I just believe he said these kind of things because he actually believed them, not just to make money.