Invoking Peat's Name: Ethics Of Promoting Products

[Dhair]

I dont have any problem with experimentation, and i appreciate that haidut has lisuride, cypro, and other things that ray has specifically endorsed. I used to think the way you did, but ive been here for a few years, and ive suffered side effects from haiduts supplements, as have others.

LOOOL. This is called the Ray Peat forum. If Ray Peat says the following comments about NOT using a potentially very risky substance, it's an extremely relevant comment to make.

[quote = Ray Peat]"Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems."

[/QUOTE]
I understand that you guys have had problems with Idealabs products, and it seems that you're still upset about it. I have reacted VERY badly to a few of them myself. But this is really getting out of hand.
The Idealabs supplements are extremely powerful and unlike anything else that is being sold. Everything that @haidut sells is above board and he personally responds to every single question or complaint regarding his products. I don't think you appreciate how truly rare this is.
I have seen you criticize haidut on the other forum and here, and I wonder if you will ever be satisfied with the modifications that he makes when it comes to selling his products. He doesn't aggressively market his products ANYWHERE on the internet, not even on this forum. Would you truly be content if he never mentioned Ray's name in the threads for his products?

 

[tca300]

I'm not going to post ray's email address, but here's a screenshot. If we could make screenshots of emails a universal thing in product forums I'd be all for that.

Thank you for not posting Rays email address.

 

[tca300]

Please post the screenshot of the email with his address clearly shown. I am sick of people throwing around quotes with no screenshots especially when trying to discredit someone.

Please dont encourage people to openly display Rays email address. We're likely to lose all contact with him if it gets out to every on looker.

 

[vulture]

Yes I do think he fakes quotes from ray, and selectively mentions only the things that will help his products sell. Repeatedly he has mentioned benifical things that ray has supposedly said about his supplements, which ray later contradicted when i spoke directly to him. DMSO and androsterone are two examples. Ray has had numerous objections to haidut's supplements, and haidut has selecticely and consistently excluded these remarks from ray. Ray has said he doubts the low estrogen theory that haidut uses to explain side effects, yet it has become accepted as canon law on this forum. I have posted many of ray's direct quotes in opposition to many of haidut's products. All i can say is that i used to think like you guys, but time and evidence have changed my opinion. I wrote ray directly regarding 6-ketoprogesterone and if he writes back, ill post whatever he says here.

I think in this case haidut has taken an already existing weight lifting drug, added ray's name to it as an endorsement, and thinks that will differentiate his product enough to make money, which is evidently the case judging on the remarks here. I dont have anything else to say but ill post rays email if i hear back from him.

Well, let's do something, let's tell Ray that we would like to have a CC of his response emails to a @raypeatforum.com email (which @Blossom and @charlie could read and post) and that way I don't have to believe your neither haidut when you say what Ray said...Problem here is that both of you are talking in Ray's name and I don't see anything published by raypeat.com stating that. Another option would be an automated log where Ray could send CC emails to his website account and would get automatically published into an official email repository.

 

[Blossom]

Well, let's do something, let's tell Ray that we would like to have a CC of his response emails to a @raypeatforum.com email (which @Blossom and @charlie could read and post) and that way I don't have to believe your neither haidut when you say what Ray said...Problem here is that both of you are talking in Ray's name and I don't see anything published by raypeat.com stating that. Another option would be an automated log where Ray could send CC emails to his website account and would get automatically published into an official email repository.

As a mod I don't get forum email so I'll defer to @charlie on this. Thanks for alerting me vulture.

 

[vulture]

Please post the screenshot of the email with his address clearly shown. I am sick of people throwing around quotes with no screenshots especially when trying to discredit someone.

I could easily edit an image to show Ray's email.
I think he shall use email CC to forum admins or even publishing his responses in his own website to be sure he actually said that.

 

[InChristAlone]

Please dont encourage people to openly display Rays email address. We're likely to lose all contact with him if it gets out to every on looker.

I figured most who find Ray can get his email. And he answers probably hundreds a week. He will just not answer if he doesn't want to. Plus in his interviews with the herb Drs they give out his email. This fear is unfounded. https://www.l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-349

 

[InChristAlone]

I could easily edit an image to show Ray's email.
I think he shall use email CC to forum admins or even publishing his responses in his own website to be sure he actually said that.

Yeah I agree that when it comes to discrediting a business associated with Ray Peat's work we should make sure someone isn't forging emails from him to scare people. I do know it's hard to keep track of the advice he gives. People should set the record straight in an interview with him.

 

[tca300]

I figured most who find Ray can get his email. And he answers probably hundreds a week. He will just not answer if he doesn't want to. Plus in his interviews with the herb Drs they give out his email. This fear is unfounded. https://www.l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-349

It seems you are right. I retract my earlier statement.

 

[Wagner83]

Yeah I agree that when it comes to discrediting a business associated with Ray Peat's work we should make sure someone isn't forging emails from him to scare people. I do know it's hard to keep track of the advice he gives. People should set the record straight in an interview with him.

Did you check the mail I posted in the mail thread? Look at when it was posted.

I hope you guys are joking about annoying Ray anymore with that crap.

 

[Wagner83]

Health forums attract toxic People. Hope this negativity won't affect Haidut's great work. Ray himself has experimented boldly with so many things it's ridiculious to paint a picture of him as some uber conservative cautionist.

What has he tried extensively or recommended that wasn't backed up by decades of research as he said himself in the mail?

I dont have any problem with experimentation, and i appreciate that haidut has lisuride, cypro, and other things that ray has specifically endorsed. I used to think the way you did, but ive been here for a few years, and ive suffered side effects from haiduts supplements, as have others.

All drugs have side effects that's no big news. If you are talking about dmso then the issue was beaten to death.

 

[moriwatzi]

What has he tried extensively or recommended that wasn't backed up by decades of research as he said himself in the mail?

Wheat germ, teeth.

 

[Wagner83]

Wheat germ, teeth.

, and that's when he decided to ftop.

 

[moriwatzi]

, and that's when he decided to ftop.

ahahaha

 

[stevski]

So, if I ask him about a chemical I am thinking of releasing and he responds, should I keep this out of the thread?

No, dont keep his responses out of the thread. I, for one, like to hear what Peat has to say in any and every occasion. especially when it comes to your enquiries. Only a fool would perceive his responses as directly endorsing your products when he obviously has not. disclaimers dont need to be explicitly mentioned. But, if some people's sensibilities get but hurt about it, then fine, include the disclaimers. But, your wisdom and intelligence in your posts are obvious to those who are not as vocal. Trust your own judgements Haidut. I do.

 

[haidut]

No, dont keep his responses out of the thread. I, for one, like to hear what Peat has to say in any and every occasion. especially when it comes to your enquiries. Only a fool would perceive his responses as directly endorsing your products when he obviously has not. disclaimers dont need to be explicitly mentioned. But, if some people's sensibilities get but hurt about it, then fine, include the disclaimers. But, your wisdom and intelligence in your posts are obvious to those who are not as vocal. Trust your own judgements Haidut. I do.

Thank you! Will do.

 

[cats]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

This is super fake. Ray does not write like this at all and some of the facts here are dubious. If you are familiar with his writing you can see that the "quotes" are not written in Ray's voice, instead they sound like an uneducated person trying to sound smart. I encourage the forum to read the "quotes" carefully in their entirety, but here are some individual examples:

phrasing like a millennial would: "actual research"
beginning a sentence with "It's that"
weird phrasing: "essential for survival in good health"
hyperbole used in reference to speculation: "irreversible and disastrous"

It is extremely unlikely that Ray would have seen 6-ketoprogesterone advertised for bodybuilders since it is very, very obscure in the bodybuilding world with only a few tiny companies selling it and only a few small mentions on bodybuilding forums that come up in a web search. I very much doubt that Ray reads bodybuilding forums, which tend to be full of biologically ignorant people who are only interested in getting huge, or looks at products from companies with silly marketing aimed at the same. Furthermore, if you are familiar with Ray's writing you know that he does experiment with substances that have less than "several decades" of investigation and less than a "perfect safety record." Several decades would be almost the entire history of modern research. I also doubt that he would claim that something which is structurally similar to progesterone would interfere with its functions or cause "brain problems" without further elaborating on why that might be the case.

 

[Such_Saturation]

an automated log where Ray could send CC emails to his website account and would get automatically published into an official email repository.

And have it as a reward for Patreon

 

[goodandevil]

This is super fake. Ray does not write like this at all and some of the facts here are dubious. If you are familiar with his writing you can see that the "quotes" are not written in Ray's voice, instead they sound like an uneducated person trying to sound smart. I encourage the forum to read the "quotes" carefully in their entirety, but here are some individual examples:

phrasing like a millennial would: "actual research"
beginning a sentence with "It's that"
weird phrasing: "essential for survival in good health"
hyperbole used in reference to speculation: "irreversible and disastrous"

It is extremely unlikely that Ray would have seen 6-ketoprogesterone advertised for bodybuilders since it is very, very obscure in the bodybuilding world with only a few tiny companies selling it and only a few small mentions on bodybuilding forums that come up in a web search. I very much doubt that Ray reads bodybuilding forums, which tend to be full of biologically ignorant people who are only interested in getting huge, or looks at products from companies with silly marketing aimed at the same. Furthermore, if you are familiar with Ray's writing you know that he does experiment with substances that have less than "several decades" of investigation and less than a "perfect safety record." Several decades would be almost the entire history of modern research. I also doubt that he would claim that something which is structurally similar to progesterone would interfere with its functions or cause "brain problems" without further elaborating on why that might be the case.

@Wagner83 posted exact elements of what i quoted from ray in the email advice thread. Not saying wagner83 agrees with what im saying, but he posted quotes from ray in the email advice thread that match what i posted exactly. If you still doubt my email, why dont you email ray yourself and ask who's telling the truth. @Janelle525 had similar doubts, and she has ray's email, too, so why dont you guys email ray and he'll tell you the same thing he told me.

 

[vulture]

This is super fake. Ray does not write like this at all and some of the facts here are dubious. If you are familiar with his writing you can see that the "quotes" are not written in Ray's voice, instead they sound like an uneducated person trying to sound smart. I encourage the forum to read the "quotes" carefully in their entirety, but here are some individual examples:

phrasing like a millennial would: "actual research"
beginning a sentence with "It's that"
weird phrasing: "essential for survival in good health"
hyperbole used in reference to speculation: "irreversible and disastrous"

It is extremely unlikely that Ray would have seen 6-ketoprogesterone advertised for bodybuilders since it is very, very obscure in the bodybuilding world with only a few tiny companies selling it and only a few small mentions on bodybuilding forums that come up in a web search. I very much doubt that Ray reads bodybuilding forums, which tend to be full of biologically ignorant people who are only interested in getting huge, or looks at products from companies with silly marketing aimed at the same. Furthermore, if you are familiar with Ray's writing you know that he does experiment with substances that have less than "several decades" of investigation and less than a "perfect safety record." Several decades would be almost the entire history of modern research. I also doubt that he would claim that something which is structurally similar to progesterone would interfere with its functions or cause "brain problems" without further elaborating on why that might be the case.

That's why I just said that Ray shall CC emails to an raypeatforum.com account or, even better, raypeat.com page with all those email responses automatically updating, like raypeat.com/emails. It's not such a programming feat to make that and would avoid all this mess where anyone could come and say: "Ray said it was ok to drink low dose cyanide".