Invoking Peat's Name: Ethics Of Promoting Products

[vulture]

I would prefer if you kept ray's name out of things that he hasn't explicitly recommended for supplementation.

Are you Ray Peat?
Did he fake a quote from Ray?

 

[goodandevil]

Are you Ray Peat?
Did he fake a quote from Ray?

Yes I do think he fakes quotes from ray, and selectively mentions only the things that will help his products sell. Repeatedly he has mentioned benifical things that ray has supposedly said about his supplements, which ray later contradicted when i spoke directly to him. DMSO and androsterone are two examples. Ray has had numerous objections to haidut's supplements, and haidut has selecticely and consistently excluded these remarks from ray. Ray has said he doubts the low estrogen theory that haidut uses to explain side effects, yet it has become accepted as canon law on this forum. I have posted many of ray's direct quotes in opposition to many of haidut's products. All i can say is that i used to think like you guys, but time and evidence have changed my opinion. I wrote ray directly regarding 6-ketoprogesterone and if he writes back, ill post whatever he says here.

I think in this case haidut has taken an already existing weight lifting drug, added ray's name to it as an endorsement, and thinks that will differentiate his product enough to make money, which is evidently the case judging on the remarks here. I dont have anything else to say but ill post rays email if i hear back from him.

 

[mogwog]

... I wrote ray directly regarding 6-ketoprogesterone and if he writes back, ill post whatever he says here.

Thanks for sharing with the forum. I think a lot of people will find this information valuable.

I think in this case haidut has taken an already existing weight lifting drug, added ray's name to it as an endorsement...

Emphasis is mine. I don't take @haidut's act as such and I don't think he infers this in any way.

 

[goodandevil]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

 

[tallglass13]

Omg... I can't believe you're wasting Ray's precious time with this nonsense... And move this damn thread out of here this is about the product, this thread... I just received mine yesterday but I'm not going to give in any reports back until good and evil is out of here!

 

[haidut]

I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky

Where have advertised a product as if Ray is recommending it? Everything we sell is based on my research. I do check what Ray has said about a chemical and if I find something then I post it in the thread. If he has written badly about a specific chemical then I won't release it. So, obviously that leaves only the chemicals which he has either not spoken about so far or has spoken favorably about. It is not because I only extracted his positive comments in a biased manner and ignored his bad ones. I can't know what he is going to say in the future. You saw his response to my email when I asked him about 6-keto. Did that response sound to you like "man, this stuff is dangerous. definitely stay away from it" or did it sound more or less like "if somebody wants to experiment with this I would try low doses and watch carefully for effects on digestion, as that would suggest if it is good or bad"?
Btw, I already added the disclaimer that none of the products should be interpreted as being endorsed by Peat. As others in the thread have already noted, there is only so much one can do to "protect" adults who are capable of making their own decisions. All I can do is not intentionally hide information I know would be relevant to a given product. All the comments about a product, both good and bad, are open for everybody on the entire Internet to see.

 

[Soren]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

Thank you for sharing this. Does he talk about as to the mechanism by which large doses would interfere with progesterone functions? I assume that it would be some kind of negative feedback loop similar to supplementing too many androgens where the bodies natural production of progesterone is shut off or interfered with.

 

[mogwog]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

What's ironic, and sad, is that the very thing @haidut is being accused of (misrepresentation) is the same thing being done to him. Be that as it may, thanks for sharing...

 

[goodandevil]

Thank you for sharing this. Does he talk about as to the mechanism by which large doses would interfere with progesterone functions? I assume that it would be some kind of negative feedback loop similar to supplementing too many androgens where the bodies natural production of progesterone is shut off or interfered with.

That's what i presume, similar to medroxyprogesterone.

 

[haidut]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

I did not think the posts would come off as using his name for selling the products but I see how some people may make the association as @Tarmander mentioned. So, going forward there will no mentioning of Peat in the new product posts except including a quote from him on the chemical if he directly mentioned it somewhere or responded to a question about it. I think it is a reasonable compromise as if he has said something to somebody it should probably be mentioned and not concealed.

 

[Wagner83]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

Did you check ray's mail thread?

 

[moriwatzi]

Health forums attract toxic People. Hope this negativity won't affect Haidut's great work. Ray himself has experimented boldly with so many things it's ridiculious to paint a picture of him as some uber conservative cautionist. Of course he is not endorsing novel substances just for Fun. There is zero upside in it for him and huge downside potential. Let haidut do his thing and those alone that bring openness towards experimenting.

 

[InChristAlone]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."

Please post the screenshot of the email with his address clearly shown. I am sick of people throwing around quotes with no screenshots especially when trying to discredit someone.

 

[haidut]

Health forums attract toxic People. Hope this negativity won't affect Haidut's great work. Ray himself has experimented boldly with so many things it's ridiculious to paint a picture of him as some uber conservative cautionist. Of course he is not endorsing novel substances just for Fun. There is zero upside in it for him and huge downside potential. Let haidut do his thing and those alone that bring openness towards experimenting.

Thank you! It won't affect me, if may change some things about how I present new products. I also want to point out (for those that have any doubts) that just as Ray is likely not some uberconservative cautionst, I am also not jumping on every chemical I think can make profit. A lot of reading goes into any chemical before it makes it into the likely list of products, then I use it myself for months, usually in doses multiples times higher than what the label suggests or what I think people will try to use. The next few chemicals I plan on releasing have extensive human usage record on them and are considered basically as safe as water. So, they should generate much less controversy than this one.

 

[mogwog]

Thank you! It won't affect me, if may change some things about how I present new products. I also want to point out (for those that have any doubts) that just as Ray is likely not some uberconservative cautionst, I am also not jumping on every chemical I think can make profit. A lot of reading goes into any chemical before it makes it into the likely list of products, then I use it myself for months, usually in doses multiples times higher than what the label suggests or what I think people will try to use. The next few chemicals I plan on releasing have extensive human usage record on them and are considered basically as safe as water. So, they should generate much less controversy than this one.

Thank you for your great contribution and continued diligence, @haidut.

 

[goodandevil]

Please post the screenshot of the email with his address clearly shown. I am sick of people throwing around quotes with no screenshots especially when trying to discredit someone.

I'm not going to post ray's email address, but here's a screenshot. If we could make screenshots of emails a universal thing in product forums I'd be all for that.

 

[goodandevil]

Did you check ray's mail thread?

I just saw it now.

 

[goodandevil]

Health forums attract toxic People. Hope this negativity won't affect Haidut's great work. Ray himself has experimented boldly with so many things it's ridiculious to paint a picture of him as some uber conservative cautionist. Of course he is not endorsing novel substances just for Fun. There is zero upside in it for him and huge downside potential. Let haidut do his thing and those alone that bring openness towards experimenting.

I dont have any problem with experimentation, and i appreciate that haidut has lisuride, cypro, and other things that ray has specifically endorsed. I used to think the way you did, but ive been here for a few years, and ive suffered side effects from haiduts supplements, as have others.

 

[opethfeldt]

I dont have any problem with experimentation, and i appreciate that haidut has lisuride, cypro, and other things that ray has specifically endorsed. I used to think the way you did, but ive been here for a few years, and ive suffered side effects from haiduts supplements, as have others.

While I'm on board with you advocating for better marketing practices from Idealabs, saying his products are unsafe because you experienced side effects is hardly fair. For example, it's well known that using more than 5mg of Pansterone at a time can increase estrogen. This is hardly the fault of Haidut or Idealabs. Almost any compound can be dangerous when used improperly. In addition, some people won't tolerate a specific compound very well because of individual variances in physiology. Idealab's products sort of lend themselves to self experimentation, which operates on the same risk/reward system as anything else. Haidut simply can't guarantee there will be no side effects for any of his products and neither can anyone else in the supplement industry.

 

[aquaman]

Omg... I can't believe you're wasting Ray's precious time with this nonsense... And move this damn thread out of here this is about the product, this thread... I just received mine yesterday but I'm not going to give in any reports back until good and evil is out of here!

LOOOL. This is called the Ray Peat forum. If Ray Peat says the following comments about NOT using a potentially very risky substance, it's an extremely relevant comment to make.

[quote = Ray Peat]"Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems."[/quote]

Email subject: 6-ketoprogesterone
Q: "Hi ray, i was wondering if i could get your thoughts on this compound. Haidut has quoted you as saying that it's structural features could impart properties on it of the main beneficial steroids you've written about, and he quoted you describing sleep and dream quality as a way of ascertaining the utility of novel compounds. I personally dont like how he uses your name to sell his products, but some say im over reacting, and im wondering if you had any feelings on that as well, haidut quoting you, explicitly or implicitly, to sell his products."

Ray: "If something has been seriously investigated for several decades, with a perfect safety record, I might cautiously experiment with it myself, but that’s something I have rarely done. I hear that people are selling things as if I had recommended them, often things that I have warned could be risky. Here are other email comments I’ve made about that particular substance:
= Where have you heard about it? I’ve seen it advertised for body builders, but I don’t know of actual research with it. Large doses seem very likely to interfere with progesterone functions, which might cause brain problems.

= It’s that progesterone has extensive functions that are essential for survival in good health, and something which closely resembles its structure is likely to interfere in those processes. It could take years for irreversible and disastrous effects to be noticed.

= I think there’s far too little information to judge the risks confidently; I would want at least some good long term animal studies before I tried one of them."