Invoking Peat's Name: Ethics Of Promoting Products

goodandevil

Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
978
For me, the change was visible almost immediately. When a person is under stress they tend to retain water (due to the cortisol). The 6-keto shrinks/dries me out within an hour or so of taking.
We offer the two options because some people prefer the tocopherol/MCT version as per Peat's advice. I can't officially advocate oral use, only topical. But when I tried oral, it worked just as well but he effect were more short lived.
Ray doesnt recommend tocopherols @haidut. Come on. You know what he's said recently about tocopherols. All i saw ray say via your email was how to experiment with novel chemicals. Why do you keep saying he recommends or has endorsed your products?
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Ray doesnt recommend tocopherols @haidut. Come on. You know what he's said recently about tocopherols. All i saw ray say via your email was how to experiment with novel chemicals. Why do you keep saying he recommends or has endorsed your products?
I could be wrong but I think you didn't understand, he said Ray recommends mct/tocopherols as solvent, not the product. I also mentioned what you said earlier in the thread.
 
OP
goodandevil

goodandevil

Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
978
I could be wrong but I think you didn't understand, he said Ray recommends mct/tocopherols as solvent, not the product. I also mentioned what you said earlier in the thread.
Yeah i saw that before. Ray may've said mct and tocopherols would be less bad than a different solvent, but he never recommended them. And haidut is referencing his product when invoking ray's "advice". And it's something he does frequently that im getting sick of. Anyone with a brain can see that haidut's plasters ray's name over every product introduction he rolls out, while at the same time, when ray warns against his product, haidut ignores ray. That @haidut so frequently uses rays name in endorsing his products is really starting to piss me off. I have no problem with haidut making money, and lisuride and other things are valuable, but he should stand on his own two feet for experimental products, or products which ray has specifically warned against. Ray has warned against tocopherols due to recent changes in the synthetic process of their manufacture, and ray would NOT advise everyone to use this progesterone contaminant, whatever the solvent.
 
OP
goodandevil

goodandevil

Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
978
I could be wrong but I think you didn't understand, he said Ray recommends mct/tocopherols as solvent, not the product. I also mentioned what you said earlier in the thread.
And let's be honest, a few people may voice concerns at the beginning of a haidut thread, but they're buried by 50 more pages and never mentioned again. Instead @haidut accuses people of running a smear campaign.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Yeah i saw that before. Ray may've said mct and tocopherols would be less bad than a different solvent, but he never recommended them. And haidut is referencing his product when invoking ray's "advice". And it's something he does frequently that im getting sick of. Anyone with a brain can see that haidut's plasters ray's name over every product introduction he rolls out, while at the same time, when ray warns against his product, haidut ignores ray. That @haidut so frequently uses rays name in endorsing his products is really starting to piss me off. I have no problem with haidut making money, and lisuride and other things are valuable, but he should stand on his own two feet for experimental products, or products which ray has specifically warned against. Ray has warned against tocopherols due to recent changes in the synthetic process of their manufacture, and ray would NOT advise everyone to use this progesterone contaminant, whatever the solvent.
I see your points. What would you suggest? It's better to have some suggestions rather than directly insult and attack, it's difficult to listen when the form isn't there, although you are of course free to choose your tone. To be honest I didn't see anything obvious besides the mail on the androsterone OP (Ray has spoken against it too, so he seems to change his mind or adapt his answers), and more importantly this one which I already mentioned. I think it's clear that haidut moves on with his own research and after all he does what he wants with idealabs, on the other hand this is 'raypeatforum' (whatever that means), so perhaps more clarity would be needed at times.
 
Last edited:

Pointless

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2016
Messages
945
Yeah i saw that before. Ray may've said mct and tocopherols would be less bad than a different solvent, but he never recommended them. And haidut is referencing his product when invoking ray's "advice". And it's something he does frequently that im getting sick of. Anyone with a brain can see that haidut's plasters ray's name over every product introduction he rolls out, while at the same time, when ray warns against his product, haidut ignores ray. That @haidut so frequently uses rays name in endorsing his products is really starting to piss me off. I have no problem with haidut making money, and lisuride and other things are valuable, but he should stand on his own two feet for experimental products, or products which ray has specifically warned against. Ray has warned against tocopherols due to recent changes in the synthetic process of their manufacture, and ray would NOT advise everyone to use this progesterone contaminant, whatever the solvent.

Lol blocked
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Yeah i saw that before. Ray may've said mct and tocopherols would be less bad than a different solvent, but he never recommended them. And haidut is referencing his product when invoking ray's "advice". And it's something he does frequently that im getting sick of. Anyone with a brain can see that haidut's plasters ray's name over every product introduction he rolls out, while at the same time, when ray warns against his product, haidut ignores ray. That @haidut so frequently uses rays name in endorsing his products is really starting to piss me off. I have no problem with haidut making money, and lisuride and other things are valuable, but he should stand on his own two feet for experimental products, or products which ray has specifically warned against. Ray has warned against tocopherols due to recent changes in the synthetic process of their manufacture, and ray would NOT advise everyone to use this progesterone contaminant, whatever the solvent.

He repeatedly said tocopherol + oil is a great solvent for steroids, especially progesterone. He even explained why - the emulsifation of tocopherol/fats and conversion into chilomicrons helps steroid absorption as well as avoiding the liver to a large degree. His Progest-E uses vitamin E and "vegetable triglycerides" as solvent. Recently, he recommended using vitamin E + coconut oil (MCT) as a solvent for testosterone, and even said the vitamin E should protect to a degree the conversion of T into estrogen.
And as @Wagner83 mentioned - I meant it as a solvent, even though he actually does recommend vitamin E as a supplement, and has repeatedly said that diluting vitamin E with some oil reduces the risk of gut irritation. I have asked him this question directly, as have many others.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
And let's be honest, a few people may voice concerns at the beginning of a haidut thread, but they're buried by 50 more pages and never mentioned again. Instead @haidut accuses people of running a smear campaign.

Maybe not on this forum, but on the .ORG and Facebook groups - come on:): Adolfo keeps extracting nothing but the few examples where people have complained of side effects (which btw are not hidden and open for anybody to see on this forum), selectively cuts/pastes quotes from email to Peat to make it sound like he disapproves completely of something in any amount (DMSO), selectively pastes my quotes to make it look like I am suggesting the wrong things to people (i.e. using water/vodka to dilute T3 solution, when in fact it was in reference to the old solvent DMSO/ethanol and not the current one SFA/ethanol), telling people he has all the time in the world to do nothing but write essays about me to "expose me", etc. The list goes on, and on, and on.
I understand the vital need for opposition, but there is a very clear line between opposition and malingering. Adolfo is clearly malingering, bordering on defamation. You, for the most part, seem to have honest criticism. Even though I am not sure what to make of your most recent comment about tocopherol/MCT. It makes it sound like I somehow selected a bad solvent and I am ascribing it wrongly to Peat, when it is very clear from Peat's emails that he does in fact think tocopherol/oil is optimal (at least for steroids like progesterone and T). The 6-keto P4 is a form/type of progesterone, hence why tocopherol/MCT was chosen as one of the solvents. And btw, I initially did not want to use tocopherol/MCT purely for logistical reasons as it complicates keeping another solvent in stock and making two versions of a product. But I added it because people on this forum repeatedly asked for it. And I am pretty sure one of those people who kept asking for it is one of the malingerers over at the .ORG website before he got banned.
 
OP
goodandevil

goodandevil

Member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
978
Maybe not on this forum, but on the .ORG and Facebook groups - come on:): Adolfo keeps extracting nothing but the few examples where people have complained of side effects (which btw are not hidden and open for anybody to see on this forum), selectively cuts/pastes quotes from email to Peat to make it sound like he disapproves completely of something in any amount (DMSO), selectively pastes my quotes to make it look like I am suggesting the wrong things to people (i.e. using water/vodka to dilute T3 solution, when in fact it was in reference to the old solvent DMSO/ethanol and not the current one SFA/ethanol), telling people he has all the time in the world to do nothing but write essays about me to "expose me", etc. The list goes on, and on, and on.
I understand the vital need for opposition, but there is a very clear line between opposition and malingering. Adolfo is clearly malingering, bordering on defamation. You, for the most part, seem to have honest criticism. Even though I am not sure what to make of your most recent comment about tocopherol/MCT. It makes it sound like I somehow selected a bad solvent and I am ascribing it wrongly to Peat, when it is very clear from Peat's emails that he does in fact think tocopherol/oil is optimal (at least for steroids like progesterone and T). The 6-keto P4 is a form/type of progesterone, hence why tocopherol/MCT was chosen as one of the solvents. And btw, I initially did not want to use tocopherol/MCT purely for logistical reasons as it complicates keeping another solvent in stock and making two versions of a product. But I added it because people on this forum repeatedly asked for it. And I am pretty sure one of those people who kept asking for it is one of the malingerers over at the .ORG website before he got banned.
Yeah, ok, if it were something lkke progesterone i wouldnt have a problem with that, but these novel chemicals that ray hasn't explicitly endorsed is another matter. Just because you dont know what the effects of these new chemicals would he, and it could lead someone who reads your introduction to these products to give up on ray's work. Because you reference ray with every product. Couldnt you simply list the available solvents, or whatever, without constantly invoking his name? Because he hasnt endorsed this product, and i think others would agree with that.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Yeah, ok, if it were something lkke progesterone i wouldnt have a problem with that, but these novel chemicals that ray hasn't explicitly endorsed is another matter. Just because you dont know what the effects of these new chemicals would he, and it could lead someone who reads your introduction to these products to give up on ray's work. Because you reference ray with every product. Couldnt you simply list the available solvents, or whatever, without constantly invoking his name? Because he hasnt endorsed this product, and i think others would agree with that.

That is a valid point. But before I release anything I do check with him. His first comments on 11-keto DHT were "looks like it would have similar effects to DHT, daily dose should probably not exceed 2mg-3mg". So, I released it. Later on he seems to have changed the tone a bit, but in later emails he would still sometimes tell people it's OK to use but no more than 2mg. He never explisitly said "this is bad, don't use it". Same with 5a-DHP - his first response to me was not that it would be dangerous but that it would have more specific and brain-centric effects than progesterone, so he prefers progesterone, but thought 5a-DHO was OK to try. So, again, I released it. Later on he sent those studies about breast cancer and if you remember, I pulled it from the store for a week. You suggested to leave it there but put a disclaimer about his comments, which I did. Same with androsterone. My first email to him got that response that it would be good to try for cancer and neurodegenartive disease. So, again, I released it. And again in later emails he changed the tune a bit, but he still responds favorably to some people when they ask him about androsterone and says a few milligrams would probably be safe. And now the 6-keto, which is actually a progesterone and was used as an orally bioavailable progesterone in the 1950s and 1960s. I again asked him before I released it and he seemed to not be against it. So, so far there is nothing I have released that has not been sent to him beforehand to ask his opinion.
That being said, you do have a point, as I acknowledged above. What I can do is add a disclaimer to every new such product saying something along the lines of "The fact that this post and product description contains quotes from Ray Peat does not mean he endorses/approves of this product. Please seek his opinion independently on any chemical, solvent, ingredient, etc that you may have concerns/questions about".
How's that? Would that make it better or less biased?
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
That is a valid point. But before I release anything I do check with him. His first comments on 11-keto DHT were "looks like it would have similar effects to DHT, daily dose should probably not exceed 2mg-3mg". So, I released it. Later on he seems to have changed the tone a bit, but in later emails he would still sometimes tell people it's OK to use but no more than 2mg. He never explisitly said "this is bad, don't use it". Same with 5a-DHP - his first response to me was not that it would be dangerous but that it would have more specific and brain-centric effects than progesterone, so he prefers progesterone, but thought 5a-DHO was OK to try. So, again, I released it. Later on he sent those studies about breast cancer and if you remember, I pulled it from the store for a week. You suggested to leave it there but put a disclaimer about his comments, which I did. Same with androsterone. My first email to him got that response that it would be good to try for cancer and neurodegenartive disease. So, again, I released it. And again in later emails he changed the tune a bit, but he still responds favorably to some people when they ask him about androsterone and says a few milligrams would probably be safe. And now the 6-keto, which is actually a progesterone and was used as an orally bioavailable progesterone in the 1950s and 1960s. I again asked him before I released it and he seemed to not be against it. So, so far there is nothing I have released that has not been sent to him beforehand to ask his opinion.
That being said, you do have a point, as I acknowledged above. What I can do is add a disclaimer to every new such product saying something along the lines of "The fact that this post and product description contains quotes from Ray Peat does not mean he endorses/approves of this product. Please seek his opinion independently on any chemical, solvent, ingredient, etc that you may have concerns/questions about".
How's that? Would that make it better or less biased?
I think it would be great. And also not put the emails with or without bold parts, either because the negative ones are not mentioned as well, or because it sounds like you are trying to show us he endorses them. I'd say the Androsterone thread is obvious because the mail is at the top and the negative ones aren't posted, and the one here is really the worst because it doesn't sound like he was addressing the particular compound but gave a nice generic answer, so it seems almost irrelevant to the op.
An other thing, perhaps you can ask yourself where the line is between the products you sell to the crowd here, most often uneducated in the field, and ray's approval. If he clearly says he wouldn't use it himself but it might be ok is it enough? Could you sell a product he is against if you are convinced otherwise? You might be more comfortable with experimenting than he is but keep in mind you appeal to a lot of clueless people in the process, sometimes 18yo looking for bigger muscles to get laid. So how comfortable are you with your knowledge and experience to have all these people try products /hormones based on your word and presentatio? We already discussed some of that in pms, I'm no one to tell you anything nor judge but it's good to at least consider those questions and I'm sure you have already.


PS: There will be no future edition.

Edit: I lied.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
I think it would be great. And also not put the emails with or without bold parts, either because the negative ones are not mentioned as well, or because it sounds like you are trying to show us he endorses them. I'd say the Androsterone thread is obvious because the mail is at the top and the negative ones aren't posted, and the one here is really the worst because it doesn't sound like he was addressing the particular compound but gave a nice generic answer, so it seems almost irrelevant to the op.
An other thing, perhaps you can ask yourself where the line is between the products you sell to the crowd here, most often uneducated in the field, and ray's approval. If he clearly says he wouldn't use it himself but it might be ok is it enough? Could you sell a product he is against if you are convinced you otherwise? You might be more comfortable with experimenting than he is but keep in mind you appeal to a lot of clueless people in the process, sometimes 18yo looking for bigger muscles to get laid. So how comfortable are you with your knowledge and experience to have all these people try products /hormones based on your word and presentation. We already discussed some of that in pms, so I'm no one to tell you anything nor do I judge but it's good to at least consider those questions.


PS: There will be no future edition.

Also fair points. To answer your question - if he is clearly against a product when I ask him then I will NOT release it. You don't see me selling fish oil or arginine, right? There is a reason for that. There is also something to be said about trying new things. It is a fine art to balance between not doing anything even remotely risky and ensuring progress by trying new things. I am pretty sure everything released so far falls either into the "pretty obviously Peat-approved" all the way up to "not so sure, but he is not explicitly against it". Given that I don't push/market anything explicitly, I think it is a decent compromise between never trying anything new and assuming some risk. Experimentation (as safely as possible) is the only way forward :): And I am the first guinea pig before anything is released, and the experiments on myself typically last several months before anything moves forward.
As far as the androsterone - his comment at the top of the thread is his first and only response to me about androsterone. So, that's what I put there because it is the only thing I had from him and I was the first to ask him about it. His later comments sounding less enthusiastic about it are all in the androsterone thread, albeit dispersed maybe 20 pages. I think it would be best if people put them in the Peat email advice thread, which people do read front to back even though it is long.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
I think it would be great. And also not put the emails with or without bold parts, either because the negative ones are not mentioned as well, or because it sounds like you are trying to show us he endorses them. I'd say the Androsterone thread is obvious because the mail is at the top and the negative ones aren't posted, and the one here is really the worst because it doesn't sound like he was addressing the particular compound but gave a nice generic answer, so it seems almost irrelevant to the op.
Also perhaps you can ask yourself where the line is between the products you sell to the crowd here, most often uneducated in the field, and ray's approval. If he clearly says he wouldn't use it himself but it might be ok is it enough? Could you sell a product he is against if you are convinced you otherwise? You might be more comfortable with experimenting than he is but keep in mind you appeal a lot of clueless people in the process, sometimes 18yo looking for bigger muscles to get laid. Etc..
I must say that I think the complaint against @haidut is bit out of proportion to what has actually been represented. I am one and assume there are others that are completely aware and conscious that these are experimental substances that mostly follow the overall philosophy and direction of Ray’s ideas. Ray does not need to endorse a product for me to want to experiment. I do my own research and decide if this is a substance I want to try. I also see Haidut providing waaay superior quality products to what is out there.

This witch hunt against Haidut and IdeaLabs has gone too far. Look at Good and Evil’s post and the venom he spewed. You also at times have been tough on Haidut. Do you truthfully believe his products have caused more harm than help? Again, research the supplement industry. You guys go to Natural Products Expo East or West and tell me that these large companies have your best interest at heart. I would place my bet on Haidut’s genuineness any day of the week. Go back and read ALL of Haidut’s posts, see his genuine character, and then honestly assess if these continued attacks on him are justified? I have never seen such a cruel post from him as what he receives from opposition.

Is there a way to reduce these biased attacks on Haidut?
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
I must say that I think the complaint against @haidut is bit out of proportion to what has actually been represented. I am one and assume there are others that are completely aware and conscious that these are experimental substances that mostly follow the overall philosophy and direction of Ray’s ideas. Ray does not need to endorse a product for me to want to experiment. I do my own research and decide if this is a substance I want to try. I also see Haidut providing waaay superior quality products to what is out there.

This witch hunt against Haidut and IdeaLabs has gone too far. Look at Good and Evil’s post and the venom he spewed. You also at times have been tough on Haidut. Do you truthfully believe his products have caused more harm than help? Again, research the supplement industry. You guys go to Natural Products Expo East or West and tell me that these large companies have your best interest at heart. I would place my bet on Haidut’s genuineness any day of the week. Go back and read ALL of Haidut’s posts, see his genuine character, and then honestly assess if these continued attacks on him are justified? I have never seen such a cruel post from him as what he receives from opposition.

Is there a way to reduce these biased attacks on Haidut?

Thanks Lisa, much appreciated!
@Wagner83 and @goodandevil - see the disclaimer I put for 6-keto, 5a-DHP, and androsterone. These so far are probably the most controversial products, but if complaints arrive about other ones I will consider putting the disclaimer there too. Let me know if it looks good.
Btw, as Lisa pointed out (thanks again!), the quotes from Peat are not meant to imply he endorses my products. They are there mostly to show that I checked what he has written/said about a specific chemical before releasing anything. Combined with asking him directly before releasing anything, I think this is about as much as I can do before I release a product. If his opinions change in the future, I will reconsider a product but so far he has not really said directly "No" to anything I have released, and quite a few people have asked him so far.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Also fair points. To answer your question - if he is clearly against a product when I ask him then I will NOT release it. You don't see me selling fish oil or arginine, right? There is a reason for that. There is also something to be said about trying new things. It is a fine art to balance between not doing anything even remotely risky and ensuring progress by trying new things. I am pretty sure everything released so far falls either into the "pretty obviously Peat-approved" all the way up to "not so sure, but he is not explicitly against it". Given that I don't push/market anything explicitly, I think it is a decent compromise between never trying anything new and assuming some risk. Experimentation (as safely as possible) is the only way forward :): And I am the first guinea pig before anything is released, and the experiments on myself typically last several months before anything moves forward.
As far as the androsterone - his comment at the top of the thread is his first and only response to me about androsterone. So, that's what I put there because it is the only thing I had from him and I was the first to ask him about it. His later comments sounding less enthusiastic about it are all in the androsterone thread, albeit dispersed maybe 20 pages. I think it would be best if people put them in the Peat email advice thread, which people do read front to back even though it is long.
First, you also believed there would be no further edition, abd so did I when I wrote it. Not that there was anything significant anyway.
Second the mail in the Androsterone thread will still be the only one most people will ever read (their fault but still) , it is at the top of OP after all. And again you add bold and underlined parts which seem, to me, unnecessary. When ray said other things about it and given that you have the powa to edit your posts, you could have changed things a bit.
Third I want fish oil in dmso.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
I must say that I think the complaint against @haidut is bit out of proportion to what has actually been represented. I am one and assume there are others that are completely aware and conscious that these are experimental substances that mostly follow the overall philosophy and direction of Ray’s ideas. Ray does not need to endorse a product for me to want to experiment. I do my own research and decide if this is a substance I want to try. I also see Haidut providing waaay superior quality products to what is out there.

This witch hunt against Haidut and IdeaLabs has gone too far. Look at Good and Evil’s post and the venom he spewed. You also at times have been tough on Haidut. Do you truthfully believe his products have caused more harm than help? Again, research the supplement industry. You guys go to Natural Products Expo East or West and tell me that these large companies have your best interest at heart. I would place my bet on Haidut’s genuineness any day of the week. Go back and read ALL of Haidut’s posts, see his genuine character, and then honestly assess if these continued attacks on him are justified? I have never seen such a cruel post from him as what he receives from opposition.

Is there a way to reduce these biased attacks on Haidut?
I don't think you read what I wrote, more like what you felt I wrote. "more harm than help"? "witch hunt"? I think it's nice to discuss this with him. I don't claim to be right btw. I discussed this with him in the past too. I don't think ray needs to endorse his products, in fact I said so a few posts earlier, just a bit more clarity would be nice at times, and it seems he agreed with it to an extent and addressed the concern.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
First, you also believed there would be no further edition, abd so did I when I wrote it. Not that there was anything significant anyway.
Second the mail in the Androsterone thread will still be the only one most people will ever read (their fault but still) , it is at the top of OP after all. And again you add bold and underlined parts which seem, to me, unnecessary. When ray said other things about it and given that you have the powa to edit your posts, you could have changed things a bit.
Third I want fish oil in dmso.

Fair enough, I removed the bold part from his quote on androsterone.
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
Fair enough, I removed the bold part from his quote on androsterone.
As I said above, I'm making suggestions, people might have different perceptions and all but thanks for being open about remarks.
 

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
As I said above, I'm making suggestions, people might have different perceptions and all but thanks for being open about remarks.

Sure, no problem. I probably won't please everybody but I am sure a middle ground that is acceptable to most people can be found.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
I don't think you read what I wrote, more like what you felt I wrote. "more harm than help"? "witch hunt"? I think it's nice to discuss this with him. I don't claim to be right btw. I discussed this with him in the past too. I don't think ray needs to endorse his products, in fact I said so a few posts earlier, just a bit more clarity would be nice at times, and it seems he agreed with it to an extent and addressed the concern.
I was more speaking to the tone of Good and Evil’s posts and on FB and other forums. My bad I should have clarified. Also, I remember your posts about DMSO and that got muddled in. Honestly, I was not meaning you, but it would be nice if members like yourself that post a lot could post balanced perspectives to the attacking posts - just like you did actually.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom