Help , Cant Get Magnesium Levels Up!

[stevrd]

"I dont know what to do.I think I am extremy close to resolving my issues ,I just need to understand this final part."

In my experience, this is never true.

No truer words have been said. SuchSaturation is correct with this. Most of the people who will tell you that they've found the holy grail of health are either delusional themselves or lying to make a buck. The reality is, many of us (myself and SuchSaturation) included, have improved our health, but are still not 100% of where we want to be. If we were, there would be no need to be on forums in the first place.

I don't interpret his disagreement with the notion that "health is just around the corner," as pessimistic, but rather, realistic. It's actually quite liberating. It frees you from constant bipolar-like emotions, the ups and downs of thinking you've found the answer, only to be disappointed and confused a week later. It's much better to experiment with things and not expect a certain outcome. Instead, just experiment and see what happens. If it doesn't work, then you drop it and move on. No sense in being emotionally attached to something, because when that happens we are vested in it (especially when we've promoted it so much to others). None of us want to feel stupid for promoting something and then later changing our mind, but you have a lower probability of that if you just stay neutral.

 

[tara]

I don't interpret his disagreement with the notion that "health is just around the corner," as pessimistic, but rather, realistic.

+1

 

[Dave Clark]

"I dont know what to do.I think I am extremy close to resolving my issues ,I just need to understand this final part."



No truer words have been said. SuchSaturation is correct with this. Most of the people who will tell you that they've found the holy grail of health are either delusional themselves or lying to make a buck. The reality is, many of us (myself and SuchSaturation) included, have improved our health, but are still not 100% of where we want to be. If we were, there would be no need to be on forums in the first place.

I don't interpret his disagreement with the notion that "health is just around the corner," as pessimistic, but rather, realistic. It's actually quite liberating. It frees you from constant bipolar-like emotions, the ups and downs of thinking you've found the answer, only to be disappointed and confused a week later. It's much better to experiment with things and not expect a certain outcome. Instead, just experiment and see what happens. If it doesn't work, then you drop it and move on. No sense in being emotionally attached to something, because when that happens we are vested in it (especially when we've promoted it so much to others). None of us want to feel stupid for promoting something and then later changing our mind, but you have a lower probability of that if you just stay neutral.

I agree with what you are saying, and for me it took experience and age to get to that type of thinking. When I was younger I would get very excited about some new anti-aging nutrient, etc. that I found, shout it from the roof-tops, only later to find out it might not be something good to use. It does make you feel stupid, and then going forward, I tend to be more conservative in my recommendations, although I have to admit that I still get optimistic, hopeful, and excited about new discoveries. If we didn't we probably wouldn't be on this forum.

 

[schultz]

You should be able to get all your magnesium from food. If your body actually is low in magnesium, it could be a problem with thyroid since thyroid helps retain magnesium.

So it's possible you're approaching this from the wrong direction. Here are some quotes from Ray which could help.


"Since a very low sodium diet increases the loss of magnesium, by increasing aldosterone synthesis, simply increasing the amount of sodium in the diet can help some people to balance their minerals and minimize stress"

"If cellular energy production is low, as in hypothyroidism, cells tend to lose their magnesium very easily..."

“The toxic effects of excessive intracellular calcium (decreased respiration and increased excitation) are opposed by magnesium. Both thyroid and progesterone improve magnesium retention. Estrogen dominance is often associated with magnesium deficiency, which can be an important factor in osteoporosis (Abraham and Grewal, 1990; Muneyyirci-Delale, et al., 1999).”

“Getting enough sodium in the diet helps to retain magnesium, but both of them are lost easily when thyroid function is low; when the thyroid status is good, the requirement for magnesium is easily met by ordinary foods. The things I most often recommend for magnesium are the water from boiling greens such as beet, chard, turnip and kale, and coffee. Magnesium carbonate is a very good supplement, except that it can cause intestinal irritation. People tell me that they don’t have bowel irritation from magnesium glycinate. Either Mg chloride or Mg sulfate with baking soda can be absorbed through the skin.”

"When you take thyroid, it energizes your cells to make ATP, and it happens that ATP binds magnesium, so you don’t really take up magnesium into the cell very efficiently unless you have adequate thyroid. And when you are low in thyroid, you tend to lose magnesium during stress, and chronically that leads to a crampy, inefficient condition where you waste oxygen, producing your energy, but you can’t retain it because of the lack of magnesium.”

 

[stevrd]

You should be able to get all your magnesium from food. If your body actually is low in magnesium, it could be a problem with thyroid since thyroid helps retain magnesium.

So it's possible you're approaching this from the wrong direction. Here are some quotes from Ray which could help.


"Since a very low sodium diet increases the loss of magnesium, by increasing aldosterone synthesis, simply increasing the amount of sodium in the diet can help some people to balance their minerals and minimize stress"

"If cellular energy production is low, as in hypothyroidism, cells tend to lose their magnesium very easily..."

“The toxic effects of excessive intracellular calcium (decreased respiration and increased excitation) are opposed by magnesium. Both thyroid and progesterone improve magnesium retention. Estrogen dominance is often associated with magnesium deficiency, which can be an important factor in osteoporosis (Abraham and Grewal, 1990; Muneyyirci-Delale, et al., 1999).”

“Getting enough sodium in the diet helps to retain magnesium, but both of them are lost easily when thyroid function is low; when the thyroid status is good, the requirement for magnesium is easily met by ordinary foods. The things I most often recommend for magnesium are the water from boiling greens such as beet, chard, turnip and kale, and coffee. Magnesium carbonate is a very good supplement, except that it can cause intestinal irritation. People tell me that they don’t have bowel irritation from magnesium glycinate. Either Mg chloride or Mg sulfate with baking soda can be absorbed through the skin.”

"When you take thyroid, it energizes your cells to make ATP, and it happens that ATP binds magnesium, so you don’t really take up magnesium into the cell very efficiently unless you have adequate thyroid. And when you are low in thyroid, you tend to lose magnesium during stress, and chronically that leads to a crampy, inefficient condition where you waste oxygen, producing your energy, but you can’t retain it because of the lack of magnesium.”

Schultz makes a great point. The point about aldosterone cannot be overstated. Hyponatremia induces elevated aldosterone, which increases both potassium and magnesium losses. So increasing sodium intake can prevent both of these mineral deficiencies.

The one thing I do disagree with, is the idea that magnesium can be effectively absorbed transdermally. This has been demonstrated to be false multiple times. One study that looked at epsom salt baths vs just plain hot water found no statistically significant difference in serum magnesium levels. The reality is, minerals like magnesium, calcium and sodium are much bigger in size than hormones are, and don't pass through the skin membrane as well.

There is a 500 dalton rule, that is pretty well established. Anything over 500 daltons (mass) is unable to pass the skin membranes: The 500 Dalton rule for the skin penetration of chemical compounds and drugs. - PubMed - NCBI

So in essence, it's better to take magnesium orally. This article explains the controversy of magnesium absorption well: Does Epsom Salt Work?

 

[biffbelvin]

Have you had a hair mineral analysis done?

It will give you an overall view of which electrolytes are imbalanced and in what way.

I had one done and the following ratio's really stuck out:

CA:MG - 15.81 (ideal 6.77)
Na:Mg - 10.97 (ideal 4)

Adjusting my calcium:magnesium ratio to ideal brought my NA:MG close to ideal, showing that i did not need to restrict sodium intake any further, just raise Magnesium.

I've started supplementing 0.5gram Magnesium Chloride with each meal, and only Magnesium Chloride. All other minerals i'm seeking from food as they weren't particularly low/imbalanced.

In 3 months time i intend to take another hair test to see if the ratios have moved in the right direction, then i'll plan my next move.

I think with minerals/electrolytes it's extremely important to take it steady. Supplement too much or mega-dose, and the bodies compensatory mechanisms will simply kick in.

One of the benefits of a correct Ca:Mg ratio is better blood sugar control. Supplementing what is essentially quite a small amount of magnesium (60mg elemental) with each meal is already providing a slight improvement here, so I believe I'm heading in the right direction.

 

[Such_Saturation]

The reality is, many of us (myself and SuchSaturation) included, have improved our health, but are still not 100% of where we want to be. If we were, there would be no need to be on forums in the first place.

I agree. I wish I were even at 50%. It's not about losing hope, it's about having the certainty that you will get there EVENTUALLY. Anyway I stand by my opinion of trying more magnesium forms until he finds one that works.

 

[stevrd]

Have you had a hair mineral analysis done?

It will give you an overall view of which electrolytes are imbalanced and in what way.

I had one done and the following ratio's really stuck out:

CA:MG - 15.81 (ideal 6.77)
Na:Mg - 10.97 (ideal 4)

Adjusting my calcium:magnesium ratio to ideal brought my NA:MG close to ideal, showing that i did not need to restrict sodium intake any further, just raise Magnesium.

I've started supplementing 0.5gram Magnesium Chloride with each meal, and only Magnesium Chloride. All other minerals i'm seeking from food as they weren't particularly low/imbalanced.

In 3 months time i intend to take another hair test to see if the ratios have moved in the right direction, then i'll plan my next move.

I think with minerals/electrolytes it's extremely important to take it steady. Supplement too much or mega-dose, and the bodies compensatory mechanisms will simply kick in.

One of the benefits of a correct Ca:Mg ratio is better blood sugar control. Supplementing what is essentially quite a small amount of magnesium (60mg elemental) with each meal is already providing a slight improvement here, so I believe I'm heading in the right direction.

I've thought about running hair/mineral analysis as well, but the cost is often prohibitive. Do you notice any health benefits by improving the ratios of your minerals, like bringing Ca/Mg to a lower ratio? Thanks

 

[biffbelvin]

I've thought about running hair/mineral analysis as well, but the cost is often prohibitive.

I got mine for £60 (i assume us it would be around $80). I appreciate that it's nothing to sniff at, but one could easily fritter that sum away over a couple of months.

Do you notice any health benefits by improving the ratios of your minerals, like bringing Ca/Mg to a lower ratio? Thanks

It is only 3 weeks and i am a long way off my second hair test, so i cannot confirm if i have actually lowered my Ca/Mg ratio.

Before supplementing the magnesium i could quite easily 'crash' after a meal, feeling sluggish/tired/disorientated. Some times i'd get cold hands and in some cases I even felt I was in a mildly hypoxic state. These effects would be more pronounced if my meal was delayed by an hour or too. Now that i'm taking the magnesium I don't get the rebound effect quite as much (though it can still come about if my eating pattern that day is disordered).

I've also become more tolerant to liquids, i'm instinctively drinking more water and feeling better for it. Urination is less frequent too. I've read that this is due to the fact that a high Ca:Mg ratio causes muscles to contract slightly, reducing bladder size.

Just to add, in addition to direct supplementation, I'm making a more conscious effort to eat magnesium rich foods like green vegetables, orange juice, dark chocolate and chick peas (something I loved to eat in the past, but disregarded when i got into paleo 5 years ago).

 

[stevrd]

I got mine for £60 (i assume us it would be around $80). I appreciate that it's nothing to sniff at, but one could easily fritter that sum away over a couple of months.



It is only 3 weeks and i am a long way off my second hair test, so i cannot confirm if i have actually lowered my Ca/Mg ratio.

Before supplementing the magnesium i could quite easily 'crash' after a meal, feeling sluggish/tired/disorientated. Some times i'd get cold hands and in some cases I even felt I was in a mildly hypoxic state. These effects would be more pronounced if my meal was delayed by an hour or too. Now that i'm taking the magnesium I don't get the rebound effect quite as much (though it can still come about if my eating pattern that day is disordered).

I've also become more tolerant to liquids, i'm instinctively drinking more water and feeling better for it. Urination is less frequent too. I've read that this is due to the fact that a high Ca:Mg ratio causes muscles to contract slightly, reducing bladder size.

Just to add, in addition to direct supplementation, I'm making a more conscious effort to eat magnesium rich foods like green vegetables, orange juice, dark chocolate and chick peas (something I loved to eat in the past, but disregarded when i got into paleo 5 years ago).

Good points. I have noticed the same thing with drinking fresh orange juice throughout the day. The quality of oranges cannot be overstated, like Peat says. This is why I go to the local grocery, and purchase 80 oranges for $25 and juice my own. I juice and drink about 8 oranges a day and have noticed a huge benefit. I eat two to three squares of dark chocolate a day as well. I think it is magnesium, potassium, and copper that are helping me. I will try the magnesium with meals, since it makes sense to me. I have been dosing mg at 400mg per day before bed and it helps me sleep, but I probably am not absorbing much of it since it is a large dose.

 

[biffbelvin]

If you can handle potatoes they're a great source of potassium.

I melt coconut oil with juice of 1 lemon then mix it into an emulsion and add to boiled potatoes. Fat/acid is supposed to lower gi of potatoes and increase formation of resistant starch. Very warming food.

 

[mayweatherking]

test ur aldosterone to really see if you are low in salt

 

[tara]

The one thing I do disagree with, is the idea that magnesium can be effectively absorbed transdermally. This has been demonstrated to be false multiple times. One study that looked at epsom salt baths vs just plain hot water found no statistically significant difference in serum magnesium levels. The reality is, minerals like magnesium, calcium and sodium are much bigger in size than hormones are, and don't pass through the skin membrane as well.

I'm interested in this too.

I'm currently supplementing Mg carbonate daily, and topical Mg chloride if/when I get any crampy symptoms.
The fact that topical Mg chloride usually resolves cramps within seconds seems to me to indicate that some of it is indeed absorbed.

On the other hand, I've had white flecks in my fingernails for as long as I can remember, and the only time they've every gone away is when I've been really consistent about oral Mg supplementation. When I've dropped or reduced that, in favour of more regular topical Mg chloride, those white flecks have grown back up, sometimes quite spectacularly.

I also eat leaves and drink their broth regularly, and salt food reasonably generously to taste.

I guess I could consider another small boost to the thyroid. Still considering the hair analysis.

 

[tara]

I've started supplementing 0.5gram Magnesium Chloride with each meal, and only Magnesium Chloride.

This is interesting too. I tried drinking a bit of Mg chloride with OJ for a bit, but I went off the taste. Looks like you've experienced some benefit from much smaller quantities than I was using.

 

[Mossy]

I once thought of supplementing with magnesium bicarbonate, but I didn't push thru with it. I think that with the amount of magnesium I'm taking, I would have to take in plenty of bicarbonate. With that much, I was afraid I would be taking in too much bicarbonates. Too much of it could disturb the chemistry in our body. Too much bicarb in the blood takes about 3 days to be corrected, through the kidney and thru the urine. In the meantime, it could upset the electrolyte balance, and could affect the heart. This is how I see it. Others may want to chime in if I'm wrong about this.

I was not aware of bicarbonate potentially causing an electrolyte imbalance--I need to look into this. I was under the impression that magnesium bicarbonate is more absorbing/available, as far as magnesium supplements go (as noted on this forum).

I'm not too anxious to take any more magnesium bicarbonate until I understand this better. I see the OP, J4son, had mentioned an electrolyte concern as well. Learning, learning.

 

[EIRE24]

I'm interested in this too.

I'm currently supplementing Mg carbonate daily, and topical Mg chloride if/when I get any crampy symptoms.
The fact that topical Mg chloride usually resolves cramps within seconds seems to me to indicate that some of it is indeed absorbed.

On the other hand, I've had white flecks in my fingernails for as long as I can remember, and the only time they've every gone away is when I've been really consistent about oral Mg supplementation. When I've dropped or reduced that, in favour of more regular topical Mg chloride, those white flecks have grown back up, sometimes quite spectacularly.

I also eat leaves and drink their broth regularly, and salt food reasonably generously to taste.

I guess I could consider another small boost to the thyroid. Still considering the hair analysis.

I always wondered what white specks on nails meant. This has happened me a lot recently.

 

[mmb82]

I always wondered what white specks on nails meant. This has happened me a lot recently.

I thought white spots on the nails was related to a copper/zinc imbalance in the body, with copper being too high. This would make sense with what @tara mentioned about taking magnesium to reduce the white spots on the nails. Magnesium helps to bind copper to protein, so when magnesium levels are low, the amount of "free" copper increases, at which point it can be considered toxic because it is free to accumulate in organs rather than being "bio-available". The body can get rid of some of the unbound copper through natural detoxification, but if the liver is overwhelmed with the amount of free copper it has to detox, the excess can show up in the hair, nails, skin, etc.

Maybe it is a stretch, but if you want to experiment, try supplementing with magnesium (oral, topical, or some combination of the two) to see if it helps. If that doesn't work, you can consider taking zinc for a month or so to see if there is any improvement, but I would not do a zinc supplement long term unless you are sure of your copper and zinc status.

 

[EIRE24]

I thought white spots on the nails was related to a copper/zinc imbalance in the body, with copper being too high. This would make sense with what @tara mentioned about taking magnesium to reduce the white spots on the nails. Magnesium helps to bind copper to protein, so when magnesium levels are low, the amount of "free" copper increases, at which point it can be considered toxic because it is free to accumulate in organs rather than being "bio-available". The body can get rid of some of the unbound copper through natural detoxification, but if the liver is overwhelmed with the amount of free copper it has to detox, the excess can show up in the hair, nails, skin, etc.

Maybe it is a stretch, but if you want to experiment, try supplementing with magnesium (oral, topical, or some combination of the two) to see if it helps. If that doesn't work, you can consider taking zinc for a month or so to see if there is any improvement, but I would not do a zinc supplement long term unless you are sure of your copper and zinc status.

Always did think copper was a problem for me as whenever I ate liver I got worse skin etc which is weird. Copper would show up as acne in the skin I'm guessing. So, through magnesium is the best way to lower this rather than zinc supplementation due to worsening the ratio...got it.

Thanks a million.

 

[biffbelvin]

I was not aware of bicarbonate potentially causing an electrolyte imbalance--I need to look into this. I was under the impression that magnesium bicarbonate is more absorbing/available, as far as magnesium supplements go (as noted on this forum).

I'm not too anxious to take any more magnesium bicarbonate until I understand this better. I see the OP, J4son, had mentioned an electrolyte concern as well. Learning, learning.

Magnesium Bicarbonate is a very alkaline solution. I discovered this when I drank a glass of it with a meal and then had awful reflux symptoms. I passed up some food and the acompanying liquid was in no way acidic.

After googling this I found out my mistake. It's recommended that you drink Mag BiCarb 1 hour before meals (apparently the alkalinity stimulates more stomach acid production, but this could be a zero-sum situation).

Either way, such an alkaline solution is going to necessitate compensatory mechanisms to maintain Correct PH in the body. That's why I've opted for magnesium chloride as it is only slightly acidic (Ph of 6)

This is interesting too. I tried drinking a bit of Mg chloride with OJ for a bit, but I went off the taste. Looks like you've experienced some benefit from much smaller quantities than I was using.

It's incredibly bitter when taken neat, but at the amounts that i use it makes a glass (200ml) of OJ taste slightly better.

 

[J4son]

b) do you/did you ever take a D3 supplement?
.

Yes , before experimenting with magnesium , I experimented with vitamin d.I took large doses , my blood levels rose significantly(to a very high level) but I didnt notice no other improvement whatsoever

What is the relationship between magnesium and vitamin d?Does vitamin d need magnesium to work?What would happen if I became magnesium sufficient?Would stored vitamin d be used up

I also have found this article Vitamin D cannot be metabolized without sufficient magnesium levels, review finds