Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Blossom]

whoever posted they had anxiety:

@Janelle525

 

[InChristAlone]

It's way more understudied than vit C, and it's not uncommon to find official statements that an actual deficiency of C is rare, but this doesn't mean more isn't going to be beneficial. You need massive doses of molybdenum to reach toxicity.

I agree that we should be getting optimal amounts not just the bare minimum, but wouldn't Peat be supplementing if he thought his recommended foods were deficient? Or rather wouldn't he be suffering from caffeine intolerance by now?

 

[Blossom]

@Janelle525

 

[Jennifer]

was puzzled why I was getting symptoms of lack of poison A (or of being too detoxified) in spite of making sure all aspects were taken care of, the only exception was molybdenum. After deciding to try it, I have confirmed over and over again that adding it was the absent piece for the intoxication to succeed.

The only problem is that it's not too sustainable as a supplement, its case appears to be more delicate than with other nutrients, it's preferable to leave this option as a last resource and use it occasionally. I don't know what gets affects when ingested alone, but it seems beyond just copper, perhaps other trace minerals are supposed to be present along. Foods don't tend to cause these issues of trace minerals imbalances.

Thank you very much for sharing! Just one more question if you don't mind? If a person doesn't digest beans well, do you think a couple eggs a day are adequate if no molybdenum deficiency is suspected?

 

[InChristAlone]

View attachment 12240
@Janelle525

Thanks! Yeah that's similar to mine, likely means there is some trouble excreting them.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks! Yeah that's similar to mine, likely means there is some trouble excreting them.

I’m glad you know what you’re looking at because I sure don’t!

 

[InChristAlone]

(Sorry if I skip any important posts, there's too much going on, though I will say I liked the longer post by Steve, you'll see why)

Here is a highly likely rate-limiting sugar and pathway (PPP) in RA effects:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531708002091


Ribose is needed to produce PRPP which is expensive for cells to produce and often compromised and when it drops it limits all of these critical enzymes:
Phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate - Wikipedia


This is regarded to be an issue in the ME/CFS community where despite the risk from high reactivity of ribose (AGEs), people chug it like fructose (almost) and have gotten temporary relief from it, up to 15g/day and recommended by some prominent ME/CFS physicians:
Defy Medical Centers

To make matters worse, the PPP tends to get ignored in forums like this, despite the fact the QPRT enzyme (they forgot to write) is the critical step to catabolize microglial-or-potentially-otherwise-generated Quinolinic acid, which can be increased by T4/T3 supplementation and will effectively prevent you from supplementing thyroid or even from improving your own thyroid (and the excess QUIN, whose CNS levels are usually is most from immune activation while its updake/breakdown by astrocytes/neurons is saturated, is easily confused with excess glutamate, nitric oxide and (nor)epinephrine).

Uridine is also very likely to become deficient due to not only PRPP, but because it requires B2 (FMN/FAD), B3, glutamine, and it has its own rate-limiting biosynthesis steps:
Regulation of mammalian nucleotide metabolism and biosynthesis (Note this extremely important sentence: "The concept of a rate-limiting enzyme is therefore at best conditional.")
Dihydroorotate dehydrogenase - Wikipedia


But it's worse than that: if uridine synthesis stops, CDP-choline production halts, PC production through the Kennedy pathway halts, PEMT takes over and sends PUFA and homocysteine all over your body (Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline).

Uridine trials have already been showed to influence several mental disorders, I won't repeat the well-known.

Yet another suggestive aspect is that glucuronidation requires UDP (Glucuronidation - Wikipedia), but since uridine is rate-limited, UDP availability could theoretically get held up in glucuronidation. I did not attempt to quantify this yet.

Finally, we can get into the real hypothetical stuff (!), and if you notice the recent uridine research from 2016 which originally @lisaferraro posted (that there's no way Ray could have known every part of that), it actually has a role in fasting and starvation, while in terms of its effects on neurogenesis it has effects eerily similar to properly-dosed RA (of course, there's no such thing clinically, cells have to produce it themselves for it to be safe):
Fat cells step in to help liver during fasting
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/355/6330/eaaf5375.full.pdf (check out the nice picture, they went out of their way)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867415010466
(This was perhaps the most critical piece of information I ever read on this forum - I figure the body uses it to seek a balance between uridine and adenosine, but that's totally unproven)

Of course you have part of this info already (uridine related to GABA, acetylcholine, glucuronidation, etc):
Mechanistic Uridine Unifying Theory Of Intolerance Of Peatarian Foods MUUTOIPF
Uridine Monophosphate For Fatty Liver/weight Problems/depression/anxiety/insomnia

So not only is this all connected but it's very hard to disconnect it.

So with that said, even if in your particular case this doesn't appear immediately relevant, it gives you 3 different options to try out temporarily to diagnose these pathways:
1) Uridine (UMP) (if RA is antagonizing it through either compromising cofactors in pyrimidine biosynthesis; holding it up in specific processes; or it's getting sucked up by T-cell proliferation or equivalent, much like happens to amino acids) (will be pointless without sufficient choline and some other things I've talked about, and don't neglect magnesium) Special note: If you take UMP sublingually - as a test - it's a better temporary indicator of the state of your pyrimidine synthesis but it's potentially harmful to keep it up, as evidenced by people having negative reactions on longecity - low-dose oral with food is safest although you might not notice any acute effects at all.
2) Ribose (for PPRP)
3) Leflunomide (if you have rheumatoid arthritis or other autoimmune issue - but you'd be very careful with this (similar to Methotrexate)...)

Why try 3)? Because in the current assumptions RA is the primary limiting factor in immune activation and some people are supposedly benefitting from that. But in a different version of what I've described here, you could theoretically have an excess of uridine production (the same way cancer exploits folate), evidenced by the fact leflunomide is actually used experimentally clinically. So you don't have to make the possibly erroneous assumption that RA is the only or even main rate-limiting factor in your autoimmune disease.

Uridine much like folate could lead to 2 different pathologies (or more), yet is similar to RA in that it's a bad idea to take it while fasting, without food or simply to elevate its blood levels too much for too long (see lisa's post again).

Note that Milk is a known source of Orotic acid, as in Pyrimidine metabolism - Wikipedia, although its influence on uridine levels was not obvious to me last I read (maybe you could find newer research) and it comes before one of the possible rate-limiting steps.

Here's yet another suggestive though loose similarity between uridine and RA: both are involved in hyaluronic acid synthesis, which is a consumer of nutrients since the skin is a huge organ, and of course this gets heavily compromised visibly clinically:
Influence of retinoic acid on the ultrastructure and hyaluronic acid synthesis of adult human epidermis in whole skin organ culture. - PubMed - NCBI

Metabolism of Acid Mucopolysaccharides


They also both are linked to regulation of glucosamine, which is yet another topic, but briefly is involved in glycogen, gluconeogenesis and collagen.

So through uridine alone RA could cripple the entire system. This entire post serves as only 2 examples of nutrient depletion inducible by RA, though they are major ones (the worse could yet be caused by the actual differentiation of cells leading to increased need for growth factors leading to apoptosis and progenitor cell depletion - or - the activation of T-cells leading to the immune system depleting amino acids and other nutrients, which is a recognized consequence: Metabolic shift induced by systemic activation of T cells in PD-1-deficient mice perturbs brain monoamines and emotional behavior - do yourself a favor and read that abstract if you've never heard of this). I'm quite sure this post describes the pathology of several real diseases tangibly, the only question is which conditions those actually are, which of course depends on yet other variables, but this is way too long already (I usually make it a point to not make posts this long). Now I have to get super high.

(@Amazoniac @Joeyd You'll probably be interested in some part of this; note that formylTHF/folate is involved in purine synthesis and therefore helps determine the global ratio of purines:pyrimidines; @Blossom @Janelle525 or whoever posted they had anxiety: there are minimum 3 mechanisms mediating anxiety in this)

I'll be honest I can't make sense of most of this or how to apply the information because you gave conflicting info on uridine and ribose for supplementation. I have heard good things about both, but since I don't understand the pathways and effects I shied away from it.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Terma - I started reading but stopped after realizing that it will require more attention. I'll read it later with more care and let you know if I have something to add. Thank you for tagging me.

Would you buy from "I kind of know what I am doing" Dr? I mean I am not shelling out for his service, but he's gotta make a living. I am really enjoying some of the research he is doing. When a guy is up front with his motivations, knowing some of those motivations will turn people off, your own mind carries the skepticism for you and you do not have to keep reminding yourself that he could be a liar. It is very nice. He could turn out to be a total hack and I would be fine with it.

A program launched by a doctor can't revolve on poison/"vitamin" A detox if it hasn't been individualized after spotting this problem in a patient. It shouldn't be the priority to begin with, it's already misguided. The person has issues, contacts him and is put on the program right away just to make sure to ease the poison burden?

I agree that we should be getting optimal amounts not just the bare minimum, but wouldn't Peat be supplementing if he thought his recommended foods were deficient? Or rather wouldn't he be suffering from caffeine intolerance by now?

My reply to the first question is too predictable. Regarding the second, I guess some of us are terrible at retaining some nutrients or have elevated needs for them, and in these cases getting the bare minimum will be detrimental.

Thank you very much for sharing! Just one more question if you don't mind? If a person doesn't digest beans well, do you think a couple eggs a day are adequate if no molybdenum deficiency is suspected?

I don't think so. If that's the main source, the diet must be providing less than what young fetuses (?) consume, and it looks worse when you adjust based on body weight:

- Molybdenum in the diet: an estimate of average daily intake in the United States

Spoiler

But like it was commented elsewhere, I suspect this is one of the least important considerations.

 

[InChristAlone]

@Terma - I started reading but stopped after realizing that it will require more attention. I'll read it later with more care and let you know if I have something to add. Thank you for tagging me.

A program launched by a doctor can't revolve on poison/"vitamin" A detox if it hasn't been individualized after spotting this problem in a patient. It shouldn't be the priority to begin with, it's already misguided. The person has issues, contacts him and is put on the program right away just to make sure to ease the poison burden?

My reply to the first question is too predictable. Regarding the second, I guess some of us are terrible at retaining some nutrients or have elevated needs for them, and in these cases getting the bare minimum will be detrimental.

I don't think so. If that's the main source, the diet must be providing less than what young fetuses (?) consume, and it looks worse when you adjust based on body weight:

- Molybdenum in the diet: an estimate of average daily intake in the United States

Spoiler

View attachment 12241

But like it was commented elsewhere, I suspect this is one of the least important considerations.

But don't most practitioners focus in on the one thing they feel is the arbiter of health? For Josh Rubin it's regulating blood sugar and thyroid. Same for most Peat practitioners thyroid/metabolism is the greatest out of all systems in the body. But maybe for someone thyroid is healthy but they have type 1 diabetes. Won't the recommendations look different? The practitioner would be out of their league yet still giving the advice to drink OJ, milk and eat liver. It's always the same. Just eat more like Peat and your condition will improve. I guess for Garrett he has zeroed in on vitamin A and he is testing out his theories. Still using his other protocols for HTMA though.

 

[Kartoffel]

But don't most practitioners focus in on the one thing they feel is the arbiter of health? For Josh Rubin it's regulating blood sugar and thyroid. Same for most Peat practitioners thyroid/metabolism is the greatest out of all systems in the body. But maybe for someone thyroid is healthy but they have type 1 diabetes. Won't the recommendations look different? The practitioner would be out of their league yet still giving the advice to drink OJ, milk and eat liver. It's always the same. Just eat more like Peat and your condition will improve. I guess for Garrett he has zeroed in on vitamin A and he is testing out his theories. Still using his other protocols for HTMA though.

If your focus is to regulate blood sugar and thyroid, and your only advice is to drink OJ and milk, and eat liver, then you are not a very competent practioner, and seem to have very little understanding of physiological complexity. In fact, only having this one appraoch (eat like Peat) for every problem involving the complex system that regulates metabolism is just as reductionist as saying vitamin A is a toxin and responsible for everything bad.

 

[InChristAlone]

If your focus is to regulate blood sugar and thyroid, and your only advice is to drink OJ and milk, and eat liver, then you are not a very competent practioner, and seem to have very little understanding of physiological complexity. In fact, only having this one appraoch (eat like Peat) for every problem involving the complex system that regulates metabolism is just as reductionist as saying vitamin A is a toxin and responsible for everything bad.

I agree. The body is complex. And having one protocol for all people is terrible. Garrett does help people figure out what foods work and what foods don't though. What supplements may be causing a problem and which ones could help. I was just saying that every practitioner has a slant to what they do.

 

[Tarmander]

A program launched by a doctor can't revolve on poison/"vitamin" A detox if it hasn't been individualized after spotting this problem in a patient. It shouldn't be the priority to begin with, it's already misguided. The person has issues, contacts him and is put on the program right away just to make sure to ease the poison burden?

Is this an accurate portrayal of what he is doing? Seems like he recently discovered the vitamin A thing and had mostly been a HTMA practitioner. I remember one time he said that HTMA was very good for resolving some mineral imbalances, but not good at others, like copper...or something like that. Seems like he is sampling from a lot of different waterholes and looking for the best resolution for his clients. But I have never hired him

 

[Jennifer]

I don't think so. If that's the main source, the diet must be providing less than what young fetuses (?) consume, and it looks worse when you adjust based on body weight:

- Molybdenum in the diet: an estimate of average daily intake in the United States

Spoiler

View attachment 12241

But like it was commented elsewhere, I suspect this is one of the least important considerations.

Okay. Thank you! :)

 

[tankasnowgod]

It’s my eyelids that are yellow. It looks like yellow/gold eye shadow which I suppose could be considered attractive if you like the color. It’s slowly going away.

Lost the orange hue to my hands and feet(especially calluses). Also losing the yellowish/brownish tinge of color that surrounds the eye area.

Both of these sound like carotemia symptoms, right?

 

[Amazoniac]

But don't most practitioners focus in on the one thing they feel is the arbiter of health? For Josh Rubin it's regulating blood sugar and thyroid. Same for most Peat practitioners thyroid/metabolism is the greatest out of all systems in the body. But maybe for someone thyroid is healthy but they have type 1 diabetes. Won't the recommendations look different? The practitioner would be out of their league yet still giving the advice to drink OJ, milk and eat liver. It's always the same. Just eat more like Peat and your condition will improve. I guess for Garrett he has zeroed in on vitamin A and he is testing out his theories. Still using his other protocols for HTMA though.

Is this an accurate portrayal of what he is doing? Seems like he recently discovered the vitamin A thing and had mostly been a HTMA practitioner. I remember one time he said that HTMA was very good for resolving some mineral imbalances, but not good at others, like copper...or something like that. Seems like he is sampling from a lot of different waterholes and looking for the best resolution for his clients. But I have never hired him

That seems to be his current starting place, and what a lame place to start looking for problems. But I guess in his mind it makes sense: initiating by first doing no harm, therefore eliminating environmental poisons.

Okay. Thank you! :)

I would not worry about it for now (especially because there's a lot of change going on for you) or later if you feel great and don't have cravings for foods that are rich in it.

--
The idea that warm pigments serve to ward off animals gets complicated when you consider that the same plant can be perceived in various ways depending on the beast:

animals color perception - Google Search​

It must not always be an issue of two different perceptions of similar wavelengths having the same meaning because certain animals aren't even sensitive enough in the spectrum that we might judge as dangerous.

 

[Mito]

The sodium is high because I have a sodium based water softener.

I have a sodium based water softener but sodium on HTMA was low.

 

[Orion]

Both of these sound like carotemia symptoms, right?

For me things got really yellow/orange when I was doing high dose retinyl palmitate.

Should add that diet was low in carotenoids at the time.

 

[InChristAlone]

Both of these sound like carotemia symptoms, right?

I have the hue on my eyelids and eat no carotenes other than what is in bananas which is extremely low. I follow a guy who does facial analysis, he says the tint above the eyelids is either a calcium phosphate deficiency or if it extends far adrenal fatigue. I don't know what to think but I have had it forever.

 

[Jennifer]

I would not worry about it for now (especially because there's a lot of change going on for you) or later if you feel great and don't have cravings for foods that are rich in it.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, I won't worry about it for now. :)

The idea that warm pigments serve to ward off animals gets complicated when you consider that the same plant can be perceived in various ways depending on the beast:

Huh, I didn't know that warm pigments serve to ward off animals, at least, not primates. I actually believe the opposite is true for primates. My tastebuds and refractometer tell me that the warmer or deeper the hue, the riper and more mineral dense the fruit is.

 

[Blossom]

I have a sodium based water softener but sodium on HTMA was low.

Interesting. The person I ordered it through just told me it could cause a higher sodium result.