Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Steven Bussinger]

@Blossom do you have data on pulse and temp from before and after the low A diet?

 

[Blossom]

@Blossom do you have data on pulse and temp from before and after the low A diet?

My Heart Rate was 91 at my blood donation in September and 80 when I donated in January. I can take my temperature when I wake up in the morning. I posted my waking temp several months ago in one of @yerrag's threads so I'll try to find it for comparison. I have felt pretty good lately so I haven't been checking them regularly.

 

[Blossom]

My Heart Rate was 91 at my blood donation in September and 80 when I donated in January. I can take my temperature when I wake up in the morning. I posted my waking temp several months ago in one of @yerrag's threads so I'll try to find it for comparison. I have felt pretty good lately so I haven't been checking them regularly.

Oral temp 97.7

My oral waking temp was 97.7 on 9/28/18.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

The thing is, most nail "deformities" have a corresponding nutrient deficiency, usually a B vitamin or zinc or iron. Same thing with skin conditions around the mouth. Note that Genereaux and that one woman that Matt Stone talks about had serious skin conditions, eczema and psoriasis, respectively, I believe.

This is a quote from Genereaux:
"To test this hypothesis, after having my eczema almost completely clear, I ate a single medium raw carrot. The next morning, I had a significant spot of inflamed skin show up on both hands. It was about the size of a mosquito bite. It was right in the cusp between the thumb and index finger, and very peculiarly it was perfectly symmetrical on both hands."

Pellagra, which is a condition of B3 deficiency, sometimes has symmetrical manifestations.

This is quote from Peat on the infamous Burr EFA experiments:

"The disease that appeared in Burr's animals could be cured by fat free B-vitamin preparations, or by purified vitamin B6 when it became available. A zinc deficiency produces similar symptoms, and at the time Burr did his experiments, there was no information on the effects of fats on mineral absorption. If a diet is barely adequate in the essential minerals, increasing the metabolic rate, or decreasing intestinal absorption of minerals, will produce mineral deficiencies and metabolic problems."​

Zinc, along, with protein and taurine, have been established as major adjuncts to this new Vitamin A Detox Therapy. (I say adjuncts because the official word is that only eating less vitamin A gets rid of vitamin A toxicity.)

This is an excerpt from the Burr study:

"When the rat (either the Wistar or Long-Evans strain) is reared on Diet 550 (Diets 550 A and 550 B) supplemented by 0.65 gm. of ether-extracted yeast and the non-saponifiable matter (our Fraction AD) from 70 mg. of cod liver oil daily, an abnormal, scaly condition of the skin is observed between the 70th and the 90th day of life. Later the tip of the tail may become inflamed and swollen, and the whole tail soon is heavily scaled and ridged. Hemorrhagic spots may arise in the skin throughout the entire length of the tail. The swelling of the tip may gradually be replaced by a true necrosis, resulting in the loss of 1 to 3 cm. of the tail. The hind feet become red and somewhat swollen at times, in some cases with large scales over the dorsal surfaces. The hair on the back of the body becomes filled with dandruff. There is a tendency to lose the hair, especially about the face, back, and throat. Sores often appear on the skin."
​

It's interesting that they were using cod liver oil. If Smith saw that, no doubt we'd be hearing about how it was actually the vitamin A in CLO that caused it all! I have a different thought, though I do think the vitamin A might have accelerated the condition.

Peat has said that too much vitamin A can be problematic in a slow metabolic state. Many things that we know to be healthful are mistakenly maligned for "depleting" nutrients. For instance, aspirin depletes glycine. We know that this depletion is often to be expected in a state of renewal or growth. You can't make something out of nothing. Resources must be consumed. We are not trying to be efficient, we are actually trying to create a "wasteful" metabolism.

If your metabolism is slow and your nutrient stores are low, then excess vitamin A could be problematic for you. In the Burr study, we see symptoms of a metabolism that is outpacing its nutrient supply: a multitude of skin cell misbehavior. As I stated in the beginning, many nail and skin issues are manifestations of certain nutrients. The rats in the Burr experiment were likely extremely nutrient deficient, since it was at such an early time in research. Most vitamins and the essentiality of many other nutrients like zinc and copper had not been discovered.

It's possible that by lowering your vitamin A status, you are decelerating your nutrient usage. This is why it appears to have therapeutic effects for people.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

My Heart Rate was 91 at my blood donation in September and 80 when I donated in January. I can take my temperature when I wake up in the morning. I posted my waking temp several months ago in one of @yerrag's threads so I'll try to find it for comparison. I have felt pretty good lately so I haven't been checking them regularly.

Do they give you grief for such a high heart rate?

 

[InChristAlone]

Do they give you grief for such a high heart rate?

Haha high?? I had a heart of like 100 for 2 yrs. Only going down at night. Mine is around 80-90 right now, with 98.6 temp. Which is Peat's gold standard for testing thyroid status along with the warmth of hands and feet. Admittedly my feet struggle to stay warm if it's below 74 in the house but I also struggle to eat enough. I am at 1700 today but still thyroid seems fine, its just that it won't be a wasteful heat if my calories are not high enough.

 

[Jennifer]

I feel like my own thyroid is working better, so much so that I don't really feel like I need supplemental thyroid which is rare for me in winter. I think your ridges going away is a definite positive sign and could be related to improved nutrition resulting in better thyroid function.
Heavy cigarette smokers often have yellow stained fingernails and sometimes a yellow upper lip. I suppose it's from tar in the smoke. It's very observant that you noticed that in your uncle.

That's awesome! My mum is hoping to get off her thyroid supp. one day. She recently started having eggs and meat again. She wanted to stay vegan for ethical reasons but her thyroid was getting worse — just prior to veganism her TSH was around 4 and after two years it was above 8. She had extreme cravings for eggs the entire time she was vegan and after I saw her last TSH result, I finally convinced her to honor her craving and have some eggs. She had been dealing with excessive bowel movements, like 10+ a day, and within a day or two of having just 2 eggs, it had completely resolved. Her body pain and sleep improved, too. She told me a couple days ago that some days she eats up to 7 eggs. lol

He's the uncle that had to have one of his kidneys removed due to a tumor. He was a heavy cigar smoker. I probably noticed it because I see him every weekend when I visit my grandmother at the nursing home and he talks with me about his medical issues. It seems most of my conversations with people these days involve health. lol

 

[Jennifer]

I also struggle to eat enough. I am at 1700 today but still thyroid seems fine, its just that it won't be a wasteful heat if my calories are not high enough.

Because you're just not hungry for more or you suffer negative reactions if you eat more?

 

[tankasnowgod]

This is a quote from Genereaux:
"To test this hypothesis, after having my eczema almost completely clear, I ate a single medium raw carrot. The next morning, I had a significant spot of inflamed skin show up on both hands. It was about the size of a mosquito bite. It was right in the cusp between the thumb and index finger, and very peculiarly it was perfectly symmetrical on both hands."

Thanks for posting that quote. I don't know what hypothesis Grant was testing out here, but if he wanted to test how he would react to Vitamin A, he should have tried a food that actually has some Vitamin A in it. Carrots have none, but they are loaded with Beta Carotene.

And as Peat has stated, Beta Carotene can in fact BLOCK the action to Vitamin A and Thyroid (starts at 13:30)-


This is the thing that really bothers me. Grant has a very interesting theory, and it's helping people out, but he is missing some incredibly basic concepts about what exactly Vitamin A is. With over 4 years invested in this theory and experimental dieat, he NEVER bothered to learn the difference between Beta Carotene and Retinol?

 

[InChristAlone]

Because you're just not hungry for more or you suffer negative reactions if you eat more?

No real negatives, I just don't feel the need to stuff myself beyond hunger. I mean melted haagen dazs goes down quick haha but that's purely cream and sugar with egg yolks, not exactly a health food! And that gets me raging hot too.

 

[InChristAlone]

Thanks for posting that quote. I don't know what hypothesis Grant was testing out here, but if he wanted to test how he would react to Vitamin A, he should have tried a food that actually has some Vitamin A in it. Carrots have none, but they are loaded with Beta Carotene.

And as Peat has stated, Beta Carotene can in fact BLOCK the action to Vitamin A and Thyroid (starts at 13:30)-


This is the thing that really bothers me. Grant has a very interesting theory, and it's helping people out, but he is missing some incredibly basic concepts about what exactly Vitamin A is. With over 4 years invested in this theory and experimental dieat, he NEVER bothered to learn the difference between Beta Carotene and Retinol?

But retinol wouldn't exist without carotenes. Which is what I was trying to say in my last reply to you. So if an animal only eats plants are you saying they never consume real vitamin A? Which shows that it isn't essential at least for herbivores as they never eat retinol.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But retinol wouldn't exist without carotenes. Which is what I was trying to say in my last reply to you. So if an animal only eats plants are you saying they never consumer real vitamin A? Which shows that isn't essential at least for herbivores as they never eat retinol.

Yeah, Beta Carotene is a precursor to Retinol. But so what? Small differences in chemical structure can have massive differences. Like the difference between Chlorine and Chloride, Niacin and Niacinamide, bioidentical Progesterone and synthetic Progestins.

Herbivores can also convert plant B12 analogs into actual B12, but humans can't. And some of those B12 analogs have the same type of blacking effect that Peat talks about with Carotene and Vitamin A.

You can also force feed cholesterol to herbivores like rabbits, and they develop massive problems (and oddly, atherosclerosis isn't one of them), but feeding cholesterol to carnivores and omnivores like pigs, wolves, humans, and lions, and the same problems don't develop.

 

[tankasnowgod]

By the way, the third comment on this thread brings up this exact issue-

My personal experience has been 180 degrees opposite.
Like most binary viewpoints (A is good/A is bad) I doubt this hypothesis is accurate.
Limiting beta-carotene for sure my experience has been similar
but definitely not limiting fat soluble A, quite the opposite.
Not arguing your improvements, just not likely the correct conclusion as to why.
Congrats. Experimentation FTW.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah, Beta Carotene is a precursor to Retinol. But so what? Small differences in chemical structure can have massive differences. Like the difference between Chlorine and Chloride, Niacin and Niacinamide, bioidentical Progesterone and synthetic Progestins.

Herbivores can also convert plant B12 analogs into actual B12, but humans can't. And some of those B12 analogs have the same type of blacking effect that Peat talks about with Carotene and Vitamin A.

You can also force feed cholesterol to herbivores like rabbits, and they develop massive problems (and oddly, atherosclerosis isn't one of them), but feeding cholesterol to carnivores and omnivores like pigs, wolves, humans, and lions, and the same problems don't develop.

We also argued in this thread about whether carotenoids are safer to consume than retinol. Afterall hypervitaminosis A does develop from beta carotene but the effects are limited and quickly dissipate upon cessation. Whereas retinol seems to cause more system wide effects.

 

[InChristAlone]

This is about accutane, but it could show that retinol uses up B12:
Effect of isotretinoin treatment on plasma holotranscobalamin, vitamin B12, folic acid, and homocysteine levels: non-controlled study. - PubMed - NCBI

We found that Iso usage might cause decreased vitamin B12, folic acid, and HoloTC. These Iso side effects might contribute to the missing link between Iso usage, hyperhomocysteinemia, and neuropsychiatric disorders.

Could be why one feels okay with liver for a long time. It has the B12 necessary to deal with the effects of excess retinol.

 

[Waremu]

I think some may see issues with Retinol if they especially cut out milk or don't eat much liver/meat and take some isolated vitamin A supplements (or take too much and are hypothyroid) because without the milk and liver, they're possibly missing a lot of the Vitamin B12 and zinc and other co-factors/vitamins/minerals in higher amounts needed for proper retinol metabolism. Even someone who is following Peat and is eating mostly cheese in place for milk may run into this issue because by replacing most cheeses for milk, you are massively cutting your B vitamin intake down. Many common types of cheeses have their vitamins greatly reduced. Protein gram for protein gram, milk has more B vitamins, etc. So if someone is Peating and cutting out milk and liver or doing a more of a vegan type of diet, mostly relying on starches for protein, then supplementing with synthetic retinol types of supplements, then I think they are more likely to run in to those issues. But short of that, I am skeptical of the Vitamin A toxicity theory myself when proper amounts are taken in a diet of the other vitamins from animal foods.

 

[InChristAlone]

I think some may see issues with Retinol if they especially cut out milk or don't eat much liver/meat and take some isolated vitamin A supplements (or take too much and are hypothyroid) because without the milk and liver, they're possibly missing a lot of the Vitamin B12 and zinc and other co-factors/vitamins/minerals in higher amounts needed for proper retinol metabolism. Even someone who is following Peat and is eating mostly cheese in place for milk may run into this issue because by replacing most cheeses for milk, you are massively cutting your B vitamin intake down. Many common types of cheeses have their vitamins greatly reduced. Protein gram for protein gram, milk has more B vitamins, etc. So if someone is Peating and cutting out milk and liver or doing a more of a vegan type of diet, mostly relying on starches for protein, then supplementing with synthetic retinol types of supplements, then I think they are more likely to run in to those issues. But short of that, I am skeptical of the Vitamin A toxicity theory myself when proper amounts are taken in a diet of the other vitamins from animal foods.

Yeah I agree to an extent. But I tried to make the high milk diet work for a long time and I was still sick. High anxiety, insomnia. So that's why I switched to cheese. But my point was if you don't overconsume A not going over 5,000 IU's a day then your needs for those nutrients may be decreased! Not because your body is too slow, just that it doesn't need to deal with it, so can focus on other things.

Because in reality you can get hypervitaminosis A from liver regardless of the nutrients it has.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Thanks for posting that quote. I don't know what hypothesis Grant was testing out here, but if he wanted to test how he would react to Vitamin A, he should have tried a food that actually has some Vitamin A in it. Carrots have none, but they are loaded with Beta Carotene.

Yeah, we have yet to see anyone improving from this eating liver, a lot of eggs, or a supplement in order to, you know, do scientific things like check the robustness of the hypothesis. So far we have reactions to carrots. We have reactions to pizza. People have memory of prior experiences, but that's subject to all sorts of biases. Nobody has done this in a controlled way. The vitamin A elimination diet is just a cult at this point.

This is the thing that really bothers me. Grant has a very interesting theory, and it's helping people out, but he is missing some incredibly basic concepts about what exactly Vitamin A is. With over 4 years invested in this theory and experimental dieat, he NEVER bothered to learn the difference between Beta Carotene and Retinol?

According to him, it's all the same. I guess it's because he's an engineer and not a chemist, he makes a big deal out of being an engineer.

EDIT: I had liver once after lowering A for 3 months. Nothing major happened. Of course, I don't know if I had any benefit from it in the first place. I doubt I achieved the holy state of VAD.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Because in reality you can get hypervitaminosis A from liver regardless of the nutrients it has.

Proof?

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah, we have yet to see anyone improving from this eating liver, a lot of eggs, or a supplement in order to, you know, do scientific things like check the robustness of the hypothesis. So far we have reactions to carrots. We have reactions to pizza. People have memory of prior experiences, but that's subject to all sorts of biases. Nobody has done this in a controlled way. The vitamin A elimination diet is just a cult at this point.



According to him, it's all the same. I guess it's because he's an engineer and not a chemist, he makes a big deal out of being an engineer.

EDIT: I had liver once after lowering A for 3 months. Nothing major happened. Of course, I don't know if I had any benefit from it in the first place. I doubt I achieved the holy state of VAD.

I don't see how it could be a cult if people are seeing their health improve. I mean if I had the kind of eczema Grant had I would be ecstatic about getting rid of it! I mean for people with those conditions that's a lot of suffering. He was dieing of kidney disease as well.

And we do have people testing it, like I said I have a friend who has confirmed for herself vitamin A supplements were causing anxiety and insomnia. That was enough proof for her, but she still believes it's a good nutrient.