Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[orangebear]

Interesting. No doubt fiber makes a difference. I gave up on carrots a while ago- not because of vA worries- but for convenience sake. I may add in some cooked mushrooms for both vD and insoluble fiber. I found a totally insoluble fiber but even that is not like clockwork. The idea is great as it is supposed to clear out the toxins, as you mention. I had considered psyllium husk before, maybe I will try that again. Is there a particular brand you like? Do you dose according to directions?

It seems plausible that extraneous vA sources might have an effect upon detox-- another reason to consider getting what we need from food with fats, with possible exception of vD, depending on where you live. I will look into the Bean Protocol-- had not heard of that before.

I use Anthony's brand. I started with half a teaspoon in the morning, then added another serving before lunch. Over a couple months I worked up to 1 teaspoon twice a day, then when I started tolerating beans more I replaced the before lunch dose with them. I went up to 2 teaspoons in the morning, but then went back to 1.5 because the amount of water you need with 2 teaspoons is more than I really want to drink in the morning. On important thing to note is that you must dissolve the psyllium husk in ample water or it could get stuck in the digestive tract.

My total fiber (both soluble and insoluble; Cronometer doesn't differentiate between them, unfortunately) intake is around 50g per day 8 or so months in, but from what I hear that is higher than is recommended for most people. For me, it just seems to be what I feel best on.

 

[orangebear]

Yeh but my point is it should not have even gotten to that point in regards to the children. You don't ever do experimental diets on children.

Yep exactly like that. Very irresponsible and reckless. Its amazing how one man will so easily throw caution to the wind and do this to his kids because he is just that sure of what he knows. This is the problem with anyone who thinks they figured it all out. In reality they know nothing.

I kind of agree, but I think a lot of people who are not doing what is considered an experimental diet with their children are still harming them as well. Sure, there are the obviously experimental ones like keto or vegan diets, but then there are people feeding their children too much liver thinking there's no such thing as too much good stuff, or those who follow the government approved guidelines and feed their children a lot of omega-3s in fish and seed oils. They believe they are doing what is best for their children, and in the cases of the latter examples, society approves of their efforts. Yet, they ultimately harm their children unknowingly. Who of us truly knows the absolute best diet for everyone's children and therefore has the right to judge everyone else?

 

[Blossom]

This is the problem with anyone who thinks they figured it all out. In reality they know nothing.

So true. It’s never good for someone to become so convinced they have figured everything out that they become close minded and arrogant.
Staying humble always seems wise. Health like life in general is rarely simple unfortunately.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

So VA is likely to be more dangerous on a low fiber diet?

 

[youngsinatra]

What Karen Hurd misses is that if you have stagnant bile flow to begin with, then a high fiber diet might cause some serious gastrointestinal distress.

You need to get the bile flow running first, so that bile even reaches the intestine so that the soluble fiber can fulfill it‘s wanted effect.

 

[orangebear]

So VA is likely to be more dangerous on a low fiber diet?

Probably. A better way to put it is that soluble fiber is the vehicle used to remove fat soluble toxins from our bodies. All foods have some toxins and various metabolic processes have toxic waste byproducts. So if you don’t have enough fiber to bind to toxins and take them out of the body, then toxins will accumulate and cause trouble.

A crude analogy might be that if you don’t have enough garbage bags and you don’t want to get your hands dirty, you won’t take out the garbage in your home. But you can bet that you will be generating garbage as you go about your daily life and it will accumulate in your house. The difference is that in the body it’s not a case of “don’t want to get hands dirty” but “won’t” because the chemical reactions that happen are a bit more deterministic.

 

[orangebear]

What Karen Hurd misses is that if you have stagnant bile flow to begin with, then a high fiber diet might cause some serious gastrointestinal distress.

You need to get the bile flow running first, so that bile even reaches the intestine so that the soluble fiber can fulfill it‘s wanted effect.

As far as I know she recommends starting slow to get the bile flowing. If implemented slowly, the program works better for more people. It doesn’t cover some more extreme cases though and Dr. Smith certainly tries to address those more complex cases. I think Karen just doesn’t feel the need to get into the more complex details for herself or people she knows.

 

[youngsinatra]

As far as I know she recommends starting slow to get the bile flowing. If implemented slowly, the program works better for more people. It doesn’t cover some more extreme cases though and Dr. Smith certainly tries to address those more complex cases. I think Karen just doesn’t feel the need to get into the more complex details for herself or people she knows.

Yeah. I also like the simplicity of Karen‘s approach.

I actually think that some of Dr. Smith‘s ideas that are intended to help are worsening some individuals.

Some people on the network are really overdoing supplements, esp. zinc and running into anemia/copper issues while following the preaching that „copper deficiency does not exist“ and that copper is exclusively toxic. Even though their blood test show very high plasma zinc and low copper and ceruloplasmin.

Or people having diagnosable selenium toxicity on blood test but continue on taking selenium, because their HTMA results „indicate“ high selenium needs, which is completely lunacy.

I think some people are really in a bad place in that network and not necessarily getting better even after years on the diet.

 

[Kray]

So VA is likely to be more dangerous on a low fiber diet?

Oh what a great question!

 

[Kray]

Probably. A better way to put it is that soluble fiber is the vehicle used to remove fat soluble toxins from our bodies. All foods have some toxins and various metabolic processes have toxic waste byproducts. So if you don’t have enough fiber to bind to toxins and take them out of the body, then toxins will accumulate and cause trouble.

A crude analogy might be that if you don’t have enough garbage bags and you don’t want to get your hands dirty, you won’t take out the garbage in your home. But you can bet that you will be generating garbage as you go about your daily life and it will accumulate in your house. The difference is that in the body it’s not a case of “don’t want to get hands dirty” but “won’t” because the chemical reactions that happen are a bit more deterministic.

Great analogy orangebear!

 

[Kray]

So true. It’s never good for someone to become so convinced they have figured everything out that they become close minded and arrogant.
Staying humble always seems wise. Health like life in general is rarely simple unfortunately.

If you use Ray Peat as an example, he was never arrogant in his demeanor, but humble, and never disparaging to the person directly. Imitation is the best form of flattery, and if we're all here to learn and glean from his years of work and sharing, it would serve us well to keep that in the forefront of all our discussions, as well as even admitting Ray Peat didn't know everything, any more than any other human being not knowing everything. And he didn't come off as if he did.

 

[Kray]

Yeah. I also like the simplicity of Karen‘s approach.

I actually think that some of Dr. Smith‘s ideas that are intended to help are worsening some individuals.

Some people on the network are really overdoing supplements, esp. zinc and running into anemia/copper issues while following the preaching that „copper deficiency does not exist“ and that copper is exclusively toxic. Even though their blood test show very high plasma zinc and low copper and ceruloplasmin.

Or people having diagnosable selenium toxicity on blood test but continue on taking selenium, because their HTMA results „indicate“ high selenium needs, which is completely lunacy.

I think some people are really in a bad place in that network and not necessarily getting better even after years on the diet.

Good points you highlighted to put things in perspective. I don't know much about Smith's ideas; with any changes, I'm trying to keep it simple with what seems most natural, and if it feels right.

 

[redsun]

I kind of agree, but I think a lot of people who are not doing what is considered an experimental diet with their children are still harming them as well. Sure, there are the obviously experimental ones like keto or vegan diets, but then there are people feeding their children too much liver thinking there's no such thing as too much good stuff, or those who follow the government approved guidelines and feed their children a lot of omega-3s in fish and seed oils. They believe they are doing what is best for their children, and in the cases of the latter examples, society approves of their efforts. Yet, they ultimately harm their children unknowingly. Who of us truly knows the absolute best diet for everyone's children and therefore has the right to judge everyone else?

The "best" diet for children is the one that covers all their needs for them to be healthy and develop properly. So if the child has access and consumes the foods which contain these required nutrients then that's what matters. Fad diets 99% of time have one or more nutritional gaps. Low vitamin A has quite a few.

So you can actually judge someone for this because we know what children need nutritionally speaking and if you deliberately feed a child a diet that does not meet basic needs then its a mistake on that individual's part. And its worse that Smith supposedly has already looked into this and studied nutrition to some degree (supposedly) and he finds nothing wrong with what he's doing.

 

[pondering]

Fad diets 99% of time have one or more nutritional gaps. Low vitamin A has quite a few.

What nutritional gaps do you think are the most glaring with low vitamin A if I may ask?

 

[Limon9]

Dietary child-experimentation has become very innocuous with the spread of the Ancestral Diet™ pedigree, which amounts to a claim of safety and effectiveness. Genereux has been in this direction, emphasizing the plain starchiness of successful Asian cultures.

 

[redsun]

What nutritional gaps do you think are the most glaring with low vitamin A if I may ask?

There are issues with lack of B2, choline, possible issues with vitamin C and vitamin E depending on what is consumed, calcium, iodine, and copper (if the diet is very red meat heavy and there is a lack of copper rich foods, for example some hardcore folk do only beef and rice diets).

 

[orangebear]

The "best" diet for children is the one that covers all their needs for them to be healthy and develop properly. So if the child has access and consumes the foods which contain these required nutrients then that's what matters. Fad diets 99% of time have one or more nutritional gaps. Low vitamin A has quite a few.

So you can actually judge someone for this because we know what children need nutritionally speaking and if you deliberately feed a child a diet that does not meet basic needs then its a mistake on that individual's part. And its worse that Smith supposedly has already looked into this and studied nutrition to some degree (supposedly) and he finds nothing wrong with what he's doing.

I mean don't the mainstream medical professionals say "we know children need omega-3s"? Would the Ray Peat diet then be something we should judge parents for feeding to their children by that logic? If we truly "know what children need" then why are younger generations so much sicker than before? Could it be that our knowledge isn't perfect? Given that before the spice trade food was rather bland in Europe, you could say that the high vA diet of today is the experimental one.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if we took confidence levels alone, how could I tell whether you or Dr. Smith is right? If you wish to appeal to the authorities on nutrition in our country, then why are they right about vitamins and wrong about PUFAs? Why should I listen to Ray Peat if they are right?

What I'm getting at is:
1. What exactly do we know is required for children (and who are the we)?
2. What is the special sauce about your position that makes it superior to others?

 

[redsun]

I mean don't the mainstream medical professionals say "we know children need omega-3s"? Would the Ray Peat diet then be something we should judge parents for feeding to their children by that logic? If we truly "know what children need" then why are younger generations so much sicker than before? Could it be that our knowledge isn't perfect? Given that before the spice trade food was rather bland in Europe, you could say that the high vA diet of today is the experimental one.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if we took confidence levels alone, how could I tell whether you or Dr. Smith is right? If you wish to appeal to the authorities on nutrition in our country, then why are they right about vitamins and wrong about PUFAs? Why should I listen to Ray Peat if they are right?

What I'm getting at is:
1. What exactly do we know is required for children (and who are the we)?
2. What is the special sauce about your position that makes it superior to others?

Younger generations are sicker than ever because they eat the worst, have higher mental/emotional stress and/or often have the lowest stress resilience partially due to their terrible diet, and terrible lifestyle habits (drug use, sleep deprivation, etc). Poverty contributes to poor dietary habits as well. We are also in era of fad diets that even the rich will stupidly follow and enforce onto their children. This combination causes degeneration faster than any generation has ever experienced. Humans as a whole eat significantly less whole food and especially less nutritious animal food, more boxed garbage and frankenfood than ever before.

Europeans as long as there wasn't famine ate quality food and most of these were animal flesh and organs but also grains and root vegetables, fish, dairy and other things depending on what region you were in. The diet can be both bland and adequate. Being bland does not mean things were inheritantly missing in european diets. Otherwise there would be no europeans.

The authorities on nutrition in this country are not wrong necessarily on PUFA. We do not require plant derived omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. We do require DHA and arachidonic acid to form various signalling compounds but you can obtain the small amounts you need from animal food. If you obtained no DHA or AA, technically the plant polyunsaturated acids would allow you to make these essential fatty acids and would be essential in that way. But they have no function in tbe body except as precursors to the small amount of PUFAs we actually do need. Ray peat is right in that some PUFAs are not actually essential, but AA and DHA are.

1. We refers to the collection of scientists and researchers who have observed and documented the various deficiency syndromes that occur when intake of any particular substance is insufficient. These are the collection of "experts" that have led to an mutual agreement overtime (which led to dietary guidelines) on what nutrients are considered essential and which are not.
2. My position is based off of large amounts of research that has already been done that has determined what is and is not essential to humans. The amount of research favoring Smith's conclusion is very little comparatively.

 

[pondering]

Dietary child-experimentation has become very innocuous with the spread of the Ancestral Diet™ pedigree, which amounts to a claim of safety and effectiveness. Genereux has been in this direction, emphasizing the plain starchiness of successful Asian cultures.

Asian diets do incorporate vitamin A in the form of vegetables and fruits typically though too.

 

[Blossom]

If you use Ray Peat as an example, he was never arrogant in his demeanor, but humble, and never disparaging to the person directly. Imitation is the best form of flattery, and if we're all here to learn and glean from his years of work and sharing, it would serve us well to keep that in the forefront of all our discussions, as well as even admitting Ray Peat didn't know everything, any more than any other human being not knowing everything. And he didn't come off as if he did.

Yes, exactly! I was just talking about this with someone the other day.