Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Amazoniac]

It is a long term thing, and you HOPE it will lead you to where you want to go. I am not saying long term things are ineffective. They are. But "the long term" is where you can hide all the things that don't work too.

It is a red flag that says "This might be bull****." So if you look around and see if anyone has had success in supplementing egg shells for long periods of time and found losing weight easier and easier, and you see none, you can move that practice into the "probably bull****," camp.

Then if you look at people's diets who have low amounts of calcium, like Thai food, and see plenty of skinny people there, you can move that practice into the "I am going to ignore this bull**** recommendation" camp and look in the places where solutions actually exist and get your head out of the theoretical clouds.

The experiments have either neutral or positive outcomes, rarely negative, so the association is justified, especially if the calcium is from dairy that provides other nutrients to use it properly.

 

[BigChad]

The experiments have either neutral or positive outcomes, rarely negative, so the association is justified, especially if the calcium is from dairy that provides other nutrients to use it properly.

Hey man, bit off topic, do you have any insight into supplements or foods which would boost mitochondrial function and density. So far I've heard k2, coq10, t3, b vitamins, selenium, olive leaf.

Would thymoquinone and PQQ be worth adding in. Any other quinones we should look into

 

[Tarmander]

The experiments have either neutral or positive outcomes, rarely negative, so the association is justified, especially if the calcium is from dairy that provides other nutrients to use it properly.

Taking calcium was not neutral to me, that is the whole point, lots of people do not do well on it.

 

[Cirion]

Well, in fairness, taking a supplement is often not the same as getting it from the food itself.

Calcium carbonate has lots of research showing its detrimental effects, at least in higher dosages.

 

[lampofred]

\
Calcium carbonate has lots of research showing its detrimental effects, at least in higher dosages.

Wait what? I thought Dr. Peat said calcium carbonate from eggshells is highly anti-inflammatory. I've been getting a ton of calcium these past several days.

 

[lampofred]

@lampofred
What are your thoughts on 4500iu vitamin a daily from food supps combined of which 3600iu is preformed and 900iu is carotene. Along with 10000 iu supplemental d3 a day, 15mg mk4 three times a week, 500iu vitamin e 2x a week, 45iu vitamin e 2x a week, and 1mg k1/1.5mg mk4/300mcg mk7 four times a week. 500mg vitamin c 3x a week as well.

Well I try to minimize supplements in general unless I get a specific issue if I don't take them.

But carotene might make you hypothyroid (even a carrot a day starts making me hypothyroid in just a few days)
10k D3 is a lot if you don't have symptoms of a deficiency imo
I think 15 mg K is huge unless you are trying to address calcification or blood pressure issues
I tend to take vitamin E only when I eat PUFA, but not regularly
And why not get Vitamin C from fruits instead? Dr. Peat says synthetic vitamin C often has a lot of allergens

 

[Cirion]

Wait what? I thought Dr. Peat said calcium carbonate from eggshells is highly anti-inflammatory. I've been getting a ton of calcium these past several days.

Google calcium carbonate and milk alkali syndrome.

 

[BigChad]

Well I try to minimize supplements in general unless I get a specific issue if I don't take them.

But carotene might make you hypothyroid (even a carrot a day starts making me hypothyroid in just a few days)
10k D3 is a lot if you don't have symptoms of a deficiency imo
I think 15 mg K is huge unless you are trying to address calcification or blood pressure issues
I tend to take vitamin E only when I eat PUFA, but not regularly
And why not get Vitamin C from fruits instead? Dr. Peat says synthetic vitamin C often has a lot of allergens

Carotene acts similar to pufa right? So vitamin E should nullify its effects?
Which fruits would you suggest besides oranges?
I do have the Quali c which is supposedly the same vitamin c since 1930s or something.

Do you know of supps that would increase mitochondria besides k2, coq10, selenium, b vitamins, thyroid.
Are pqq, thymoquinone and other quinones worth taking

 

[gaze]

Carotene acts similar to pufa right? So vitamin E should nullify its effects?
Which fruits would you suggest besides oranges?
I do have the Quali c which is supposedly the same vitamin c since 1930s or something.

Do you know of supps that would increase mitochondria besides k2, coq10, selenium, b vitamins, thyroid.
Are pqq, thymoquinone and other quinones worth taking

Ray says the best thing to do for excess carotene is to take b12 because b12 converts carotene to retinol. of course, most on this thread are trying to avoid that, so take it how you will.

 

[Collden]

Damage and accumulation are two separate things. There are wealthy people with their livers nearly overflowing from its limits due to insane intakes that barely knew about it for being unnoticeable, it was discovered by accident. It's also possible to dispose at a high rate, so we should have a decent margin for regulation and there has to be a predisposition to make you susceptible to harm.

Our livers can be storing more compared to the past, but not to the point of ubiquitous overload. Various months on low intakes are more than enough to normalize levels again and solve the issue, but it doesn't; one meal is enough to throw people off again. There can be damage without excess storage, just by taking too much at a time for example.

Some folks who have been at this for about 10-12 months have started to reintroduce moderate VA foods and seem to do fine. Nevertheless science says it could well take longer than that to normalize levels. I think that remodeling of the liver occurring as VA is being mobilized and eliminated will impair VA processing and further add to recovery time.

 

[sunraiser]

Damage and accumulation are two separate things. There are wealthy people with their livers nearly overflowing from its limits due to insane intakes that barely knew about it for being unnoticeable, it was discovered by accident. It's also possible to dispose at a high rate, so we should have a decent margin for regulation and there has to be a predisposition to make you susceptible to harm.

Our livers can be storing more compared to the past, but not to the point of ubiquitous overload. Various months on low intakes are more than enough to normalize levels again and solve the issue, but it doesn't; one meal is enough to throw people off again. There can be damage without excess storage, just by taking too much at a time for example.

But it doesn't rule out the idea that poor liver function could be (probably is?) at the root of people having VA issues. E.g. the liver is full of iron, or just "fatty (what does this comprise of in practice, though?).

I think the liver is full of "something" in these cases. My personal view would be iron as a way of impeding function, but I'm sure there are lots of theories. I think that's why so many have success with lots and lots of liver flushes (though I don't support the idea as occasionally they can cause serious issues).

 

[charlie]

I think the liver is full of "something" in these cases. My personal view would be iron as a way of impeding function, but I'm sure there are lots of theories. I think that's why so many have success with lots and lots of liver flushes (though I don't support the idea as occasionally they can cause serious issues).

I think part of it is from lack of b vitamins and its co-factors.

 

[Amazoniac]

Hey man, bit off topic, do you have any insight into supplements or foods which would boost mitochondrial function and density. So far I've heard k2, coq10, t3, b vitamins, selenium, olive leaf.

Would thymoquinone and PQQ be worth adding in. Any other quinones we should look into

This might interest you:
- NAD/NADH Ratio - The One Metabolic Cause To Rule Them All

If thymoquinone is replacing the seed oil there you were using, I guess it's worth trying. PQQ is safe, I just don't know how much is desirable because supplements provide 20 mg or more whereas human milch has about 0.15 mg/l. I would stick to basics (antidote K and ubiquinone), but in case you decide to experiment with these, starting from doses that are close to those found in foods before baccheioning is a good idea.
- Levels of pyrroloquinoline quinone in various foods
- Characterization of Pyrroloquinoline Quinone Amino Acid Derivatives by Electrospray Ionization Mass Spectrometry and Detection in Human Milk

Taking calcium was not neutral to me, that is the whole point, lots of people do not do well on it.

And I agree, was the initial comment. However, to be elligible to judge its effects on weight, you have to tolerate it to begin with, otherwise it's confounded by the issues and will eventually be problematic, there's no need for an experiment. It's akin to wishing to evaluate the consequences of deep diving by recruiting those that can't swim. So in cases that do handle it fine, it often leads to weight stability or loss.

Some folks who have been at this for about 10-12 months have started to reintroduce moderate VA foods and seem to do fine. Nevertheless science says it could well take longer than that to normalize levels. I think that remodeling of the liver occurring as VA is being mobilized and eliminated will impair VA processing and further add to recovery time.

It can be that only now they're trying to reintroduce small amounts, but the success could've been there if it was attempted earlier. Might also be due to reserves being low enough that the positives from dosing offsets the negatives at this point.

You seem to imply that people need some sort of storage reset, but tissues are remodeled constantly. The liver is a major detoxifying organ, it's prepared to handle harsh environment insults of various sorts, which is why it has a remarkable capacity to regenerate within a short time frame, even when it has been quite damaged and a great deal of it os chopped out, search for 'hepatectomy regeneration (patients/human)'. Yet here you are assuming that almost a year is not enough time with people consuming practically no toxin.

But it doesn't rule out the idea that poor liver function could be (probably is?) at the root of people having VA issues. E.g. the liver is full of iron, or just "fatty (what does this comprise of in practice, though?).

I think the liver is full of "something" in these cases. My personal view would be iron as a way of impeding function, but I'm sure there are lots of theories. I think that's why so many have success with lots and lots of liver flushes (though I don't support the idea as occasionally they can cause serious issues).

If the problem is poor liver function or any other cause, no matter how long you stay on a depleting diet, it probably won't fix the condition. I'm sold as soon as you show me a few cases that followed what Collden has in mind, corrected their issues, and can now tolerate higher doses again without problems. When the actual cause of damage was excessive poisonoids intake, avoiding them altogether is no longer the solution, repair would have to be through other means while avoiding the surplus.

 

[postman]

This might interest you:
- NAD/NADH Ratio - The One Metabolic Cause To Rule Them All

If thymoquinone is replacing the seed oil there you were using, I guess it's worth trying. PQQ is safe, I just don't know how much is desirable because supplements provide 20 mg or more whereas human milch has about 0.15 mg/l. I would stick to basics (antidote K and ubiquinone), but in case you decide to experiment with these, starting from doses that are close to those found in foods before baccheioning is a good idea.
- Levels of pyrroloquinoline quinone in various foods
- Characterization of Pyrroloquinoline Quinone Amino Acid Derivatives by Electrospray Ionization Mass Spectrometry and Detection in Human Milk

And I agree, was the initial comment. However, to be elligible to judge its effects on weight, you have to tolerate it to begin with, otherwise it's confounded by the issues and will eventually be problematic, there's no need for an experiment. It's akin to wishing to evaluate the consequences of deep diving by recruiting those that can't swim. So in cases that do handle it fine, it often leads to weight stability or loss.

It can be that only now they're trying to reintroduce small amounts, but the success could've been there if it was attempted earlier. Might also be due to reserves being low enough that the positives from dosing offsets the negatives at this point.

You seem to imply that people need some sort of storage reset, but tissues are remodeled constantly. The liver is a major detoxifying organ, it's prepared to handle harsh environment insults of various sorts, which is why it has a remarkable capacity to regenerate within a short time frame, even when it has been quite damaged and a great deal of it os chopped out, search for 'hepatectomy regeneration (patients/human)'. Yet here you are assuming that almost a year is not enough time with people consuming practically no toxin.

If the problem is poor liver function or any other cause, no matter how long you stay on a depleting diet, it probably won't fix the condition. I'm sold as soon as you show me a few cases that followed what Collden has in mind, corrected their issues, and can now tolerate higher doses again without problems. When the actual cause of damage was excessive poisonoids intake, avoiding them altogether is no longer the solution, repair would have to be through other means while avoiding the surplus.

How would you go about healing the liver?

 

[Collden]

If the problem is poor liver function or any other cause, no matter how long you stay on a depleting diet, it probably won't fix the condition. I'm sold as soon as you show me a few cases that followed what Collden has in mind, corrected their issues, and can now tolerate higher doses again without problems. When the actual cause of damage was excessive poisonoids intake, avoiding them altogether is no longer the solution, repair would have to be through other means while avoiding the surplus.

What makes you think that liver damage caused by excess VA would not be resolved by removing the causative agent? Did you not one paragraph earlier describe the amazing regenerative capacity of the liver?

Hepatic and dermatologic manifestations of chronic hypervitaminosis A in adults. Report of two cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"At the present time (approximately 10 months since institution of the low vitamin A diet), the patient’s weight has stabilized (148 pounds), his alopecia and hepatomegaly have largely resolved, and his muscle strength has partially improved both subjectively and objectively."

Note that in this case the symptoms had almost, but not entirely, resolved by 10 months on a low-VA diet.

 

[BigChad]

Ray says the best thing to do for excess carotene is to take b12 because b12 converts carotene to retinol. of course, most on this thread are trying to avoid that, so take it how you will.

I have also read somewhere that iron is necessary to convert carotene to retinol. For b12 does it matter if its methyl b12 or cyanob12

 

[Amazoniac]

How would you go about healing the liver?

There are various threads on this. A 'super-diet' is needed to compensate for what's going on, such term isn't made up.

What makes you think that liver damage caused by excess VA would not be resolved by removing the causative agent? Did you not one paragraph earlier describe the amazing regenerative capacity of the liver?

Hepatic and dermatologic manifestations of chronic hypervitaminosis A in adults. Report of two cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"At the present time (approximately 10 months since institution of the low vitamin A diet), the patient’s weight has stabilized (148 pounds), his alopecia and hepatomegaly have largely resolved, and his muscle strength has partially improved both subjectively and objectively."

Note that in this case the symptoms had almost, but not entirely, resolved by 10 months on a low-VA diet.

In cases of chronic toxicity, all that people had to do was to stop the absurd intake, the body shouldn't develop aversion to a nutrient. This tall 29-year-old guy developed problems due large intakes coupled with malnourishment:

"Dietary evaluation revealed a daily caloric intake of approximately 1,400 kcal with an estimated daily caloric requirement of 2,500 kcal. He had a bizarre food intake of largely uncooked foods eaten in small quantities."

"Our initial clinical impressions at this time were: (1) malnutrition secondary to anorexia of unclear cause, (2) history of infectious mononucleosis, (3) history of Gilbert’s disease."

"The biopsy findings of cirrhosis prompted further questioning of the patient about his vitamin A intake. He then disclosed that he had a fondness for beef liver and may have regularly consumed two or three large portions (6 to 8 ounces) per week for the past eight to nine years. This quantity of liver provides an average daily intake of 30,000 to 40,000 IU of preformed vitamin A. In addition, the patient admitted taking a daily multivitamin supplement intermittently, which contained 5,000 IU of vitamin A per tablet."​

So this is a correction of damage from excessive consumption in a malnourished and structurally damaged person. Can you point me just one person here that's dealing with extensive liver injury (ultrasound), that had a similar past of malnourishment while getting large amounts of it? Still, he was able to normalize most of it within that time frame. Why are much milder cases taking longer?

 

[Tarmander]

So in cases that do handle it fine, it often leads to weight stability or loss.

Learn something new everyday I guess.

 

[Collden]

"Dietary evaluation revealed a daily caloric intake of approximately 1,400 kcal with an estimated daily caloric requirement of 2,500 kcal. He had a bizarre food intake of largely uncooked foods eaten in small quantities."

"Our initial clinical impressions at this time were: (1) malnutrition secondary to anorexia of unclear cause, (2) history of infectious mononucleosis, (3) history of Gilbert’s disease."

"The biopsy findings of cirrhosis prompted further questioning of the patient about his vitamin A intake. He then disclosed that he had a fondness for beef liver and may have regularly consumed two or three large portions (6 to 8 ounces) per week for the past eight to nine years. This quantity of liver provides an average daily intake of 30,000 to 40,000 IU of preformed vitamin A. In addition, the patient admitted taking a daily multivitamin supplement intermittently, which contained 5,000 IU of vitamin A per tablet."​

So this is a correction of damage from excessive consumption in a malnourished and structurally damaged person. Can you point me just one person here that's dealing with extensive liver injury (ultrasound), that had a similar past of malnourishment while getting large amounts of it? Still, he was able to normalize most of it within that time frame. Why are much milder cases taking longer?

There is nothing remarkable about his dietary history. There are literally millions of people with restrictive eating disorders in the US alone who are as bad or worse than this guy. His Vitamin A intake is also nothing astonishing and quite likely reached by following a WAPF diet or similar. Incidentally, as haidut has pointed out we are also dealing with a silent epidemic of asymptomatic cirrhotic liver injury even among young adults.

We have people here who are much older, have been eating strange diets for much longer, and who have more severe symptoms than this case study, so I'm not sure which mild cases you are referring to that are taking so long to heal. There aren't that many people who've done the diet for longer than 10 months yet, and most in that category have vastly improved their health already.

 

[Dolomite]

I have been eating low for 5 months and I don't intend to eat high A foods again except for egg yolks. I hate wasting them and will eventually eat them again. But I am done with carrots and other vegetables with lots of beta carotene. In April I ate some scrambled eggs and bacon with no signs of trouble so maybe my liver is fine. But overall I just feel so great I can't see changing things now.