Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Travis]

And yet Peat is still not a fan of high carotene foods. Could be a reason for low thyroid. I don't get a lot of them in my diet and my thyroid is fine. 98.7 90 pulse, that is without caffeine. With it goes even higher.

This is because he confounds a symptom with a cause. A lack of thyroid hormone lowers the conversion of carotenes into retinol, not the other other way around. Carotenes do not cause hypothyroidism and they never have.

 

[DDK]

This is because he confounds a symptom with a cause. A lack of thyroid hormone lowers the conversion of carotenes into retinol, not the other other way around. Carotenes do not cause hypothyroidism and they never have.

I don't think Ray ever said carotenes cause hypothyrodism only that carotenemia is a diagnostic marker for hypothyroidism. Like him saying when he was hypothyroid his skin would turn orange from consuming carrot juice; he wasn't saying the carotene caused his hypothyroid state; only that the carotenemia was an indicator of low thyroid function.

 

[Travis]

I don't think Ray ever said carotenes cause hypothyrodism only that carotenemia is a diagnostic marker for hypothyroidism. Like him saying when he was hypothyroid his skin would turn orange from consuming carrot juice; he wasn't saying the carotene caused his hypothyroid state; only that the carotenemia was an indicator of low thyroid function.

That's good to hear, yet it's obvious that some people have gotten the wrong impression.

 

[Kartoffel]

I don't think Ray ever said carotenes cause hypothyrodism only that carotenemia is a diagnostic marker for hypothyroidism. Like him saying when he was hypothyroid his skin would turn orange from consuming carrot juice; he wasn't saying the carotene caused his hypothyroid state; only that the carotenemia was an indicator of low thyroid function.

Actually, he has said that excess carotene reduces thyroid function, several times.

 

[Travis]

Actually, he has said that excess carotene reduces thyroid function, several times.

Well, he also seems to discount established immunogenic pathways: Do you think he has a hidden agenda Kartoffel?

 

[Kartoffel]

Well, he also seems to discount established immunogenic pathways: Do you think he has a hidden agenda Kartoffel?

Yes, he gets his funding from the powerful milk industry to spread lies and confusion. Just like myself. The German Dairy Farmer Association pays me 20 cents every time you call me a moron.

 

[Travis]

Yes, he gets his funding from the powerful milk industry to spread lies and confusion. Just like myself. The German Dairy Farmer Association pays me 20 cents every time you call me a moron.

Is English your second language?

 

[InChristAlone]

So back to light sensitivity in the eye. The theory here is that retinol damages the retina?

 

[postman]

Ok so I've been eating a vitamin a restricted diet for about 2 weeks now. I've definitely have had a lot of benefits, but I suspect these are because I have restricted other foods that I'm allergic to or that I'm sensitive to for whatever reason. For the last couple of days I've also experienced bad effects. The good effects are more energy, deeper sleep, clearer and better vision, colors seem more colorful, better cognition. Maybe slightly less sensitivity to light. But in the last few days I've also experienced dry eyes, and itchy eyes, which are both commonly known as vitamin a deficiency symptoms. Unless this is a detox reaction of some sort I think it's pretty safe to say that these are vitamin a deficiency symptoms. I'm currently debating with myself if I should try and eat some well cooked spinach and see if the itchiness goes away. I did have some beans the other day and I got a ton of endotoxin issues, and most of the benficial effects I've had went away which would suggest that they were most likely not caused by the lowered vitamin a intake.

 

[postman]

Ok so I've been eating a vitamin a restricted diet for about 2 weeks now. I've definitely have had a lot of benefits, but I suspect these are because I have restricted other foods that I'm allergic to or that I'm sensitive to for whatever reason. For the last couple of days I've also experienced bad effects. The good effects are more energy, deeper sleep, clearer and better vision, colors seem more colorful, better cognition. Maybe slightly less sensitivity to light. But in the last few days I've also experienced dry eyes, and itchy eyes, which are both commonly known as vitamin a deficiency symptoms. Unless this is a detox reaction of some sort I think it's pretty safe to say that these are vitamin a deficiency symptoms. I'm currently debating with myself if I should try and eat some well cooked spinach and see if the itchiness goes away. I did have some beans the other day and I got a ton of endotoxin issues, and most of the benficial effects I've had went away which would suggest that they were most likely not caused by the lowered vitamin a intake.

Ok so I ate a pound of spinach. Steamed for 50 minutes, ate it with soy sauce, salt, and a lot of coconut oil. My eyes feel a bit better now, however focusing my vision is harder, I can't see the same detail in distant objects. Maybe that has nothing to do with retinol though. I think I'm gonna try the same experiment with liver or maybe just a pure retinol supplement as well.

About 6 months ago I tried taking cod liver oil, the one Chris Masterjohn took. It made my vision terribly blurry, in a dose dependent manner, and it got progressively worse as I took it. Took it for about two weeks. But even a single dose had a noticable impact. It also worsened my other health problems, it made me more fatigued, It made the insomnia come back, and it greatly worsened my brainfog. It did however make me less oversensitive to chemical odors... I thought that it was just the pufa that caused these negative symptoms but maybe the retinol was a factor as well. Eating salmon never made me feel as bad as the cod liver oil, even though a salmon meal has a lot more pufa than a teaspoon of cod liver oil.

Edit: huh dry eyes seem to be back now a couple of hours later. Maybe it was unrelated to all of this.

 

[franko]

But in the last few days I've also experienced dry eyes, and itchy eyes, which are both commonly known as vitamin a deficiency symptoms. Unless this is a detox reaction of some sort I think it's pretty safe to say that these are vitamin a deficiency symptoms.

If Grant's theory is correct, those are actually symptoms of VA excess.

But if you are on a low VA diet, how could you have symptoms of VA excess?

Well, my hypothesis is that it could be due to increased VA sensitivity due to the release of VA from body tissues.

Here is one plausible explanation from Grant:

"I suspect there’s a bit of a catch to this losing weight phenomenon for us. As you lose that extra weight, you will, of course, reduce your body’s fat store. Take one guess what’s stored in that fat. Of course, we now know, it’s our old friend retinol. So, with the reduction in fat storage, that retinol will release into the blood. Where’s that retinol going to go? I’m not exactly sure. But, if your liver is indeed truly saturated, then it isn’t going there.

I think this is why I had a very noticeable recovery in my first three days and then a very slow recovery after that. It wasn’t horrible, and I wasn’t suffering. It was indeed never as bad as it was before starting my diet experiment. So, really, it was generally all good. However, I just want to set the expectation that there’s potentially a very long road ahead."
- ETFOH, p. 244
​

So my amateur hypothesis is that by going on a low VA diet, your body depletes its stored retinol in various tissues, and this raises the level of retinol in the bloodstream. And then when you consume a perviously tolerable amount of VA, your preexisting high serum retinol is "overloaded" and you'll experience flareups — probably of your usual VA excess symptoms — whether they be gut issues or skin issues or eye issues or whatever else.

Again, this is corroborated in my experiences with reintroducing pizza, nonfat yogurt and watermelon.

And with Jordan Peterson it was his severe reaction to apple cider ("knocked him out" for a month), and his daughter Mikhaila had a severe reaction from a meal that had soy.

And I just came across another similar anecdote from a carnivore diet person in this interview with Shawn Baker on Joe Rogan when he said that — after being an the carnivore diet for awhile — he got back pain from eating apples.

I'm about 4 months in to the VA elimination diet, and I seem to have gotten gradually more sensitive to VA over this time. I'm highly sensitive to it right now. It's gotten to the point where I feel better if I eliminate the last remaining low VA foods in my diet like sauerkraut and mustard.

I tried introducing all-beef summer sausage into my diet and that gave me dryer eyes, dry mouth and dry lips — so presumably there is some additional VA in that compared to just plain beef steaks and roasts — could be the spices, could be some "mystery" meat. (Grant has mentioned that he doesn't trust ground meat).

And Grant's book has his anecdote about taking a lutein supplement (emphasis mine):

"Therefore, on one of my shopping trips to pick up some vitamin C, I saw lutein/zeaxanthin on the vitamin shelf and decided to add it to my diet. Well boom, wouldn’t you know it. It hit me like a speeding truck. Actually, it was more like a speeding truck that was on fire. Within a week, I had severe arthritis developing in my left hand. In a few more weeks, things were going seriously wrong. So much so, that the knuckles on my left hand started to literally grow out of the palm of my hand. The bones in my left wrist became swollen to about twice their normal size. The skin on the backs of my hands quickly became significantly inflamed again. My eyes became swollen and developed a severe amount of vascularization. My hair quickly went from being about 90% black to once again being about 70% gray. I developed an intense amount of inflammation in my pelvic area. The skin on the sides of my torso was becoming bumpy, almost rash-like. I had a massive, and almost unbelievable, amount of skin shedding off the backs of my hands.​

I initially thought that my overall experiment was making a big reversal and was now failing. Of course, I kept on reminding myself that if an experiment fails to prove a theory, then the theory is wrong. But, then I went back, and did a little bit more reading about this wonderful lutein. And wouldn’t you know it, lo and behold, it’s categorized as another form of vitamin-A. I thought “great; I just dosed myself up on the very thing that I thought I would never do”; more vitamin-A.

I stopped taking the lutein, and within four days my inflammation condition started to calm down, and I started to very slowly return to normal.

However, for me, the damage was done. My knuckles and skin had been seriously damaged again, so had my eyes. It’s taken me at least five months to fully recover from that little indiscretion. Quite amazingly, my hair is now once again returning to being black. Therefore, although lutein is commonly recommended to senior citizens for macular degeneration, I consider it to be nothing more than another poison, and a death trap for seniors."
- p. 206, PFP​

 

[raypeatclips]

If Grant's theory is correct, those are actually symptoms of VA excess.

But if you are on a low VA diet, how could you have symptoms of VA excess?

Well, the source of it could be the VA that's already stored in your body.

Here is one plausible explanation from Grant:

"I suspect there’s a bit of a catch to this losing weight phenomenon for us. As you lose that extra weight, you will, of course, reduce your body’s fat store. Take one guess what’s stored in that fat. Of course, we now know, it’s our old friend retinol. So, with the reduction in fat storage, that retinol will release into the blood. Where’s that retinol going to go? I’m not exactly sure. But, if your liver is indeed truly saturated, then it isn’t going there.

I think this is why I had a very noticeable recovery in my first three days and then a very slow recovery after that. It wasn’t horrible, and I wasn’t suffering. It was indeed never as bad as it was before starting my diet experiment. So, really, it was generally all good. However, I just want to set the expectation that there’s potentially a very long road ahead."
- ETFOH, p. 244
​

So my hypothesis is that by going on a low VA diet, your body uses this opportunity to deplete its stored retinol in various tissues, and it raises the level of retinol in the bloodstream. And then when you consume a perviously tolerable amount of VA, the preexisting high serum retinol is "overloaded" and it goes into tissues and you'll experience a flareup of your particular VA excess symptoms — whether they be gut issues or skin issues or eye issues.

Again, this is corroborated by my experiences with reintroducing pizza, nonfat yogurt and watermelon. And with Jordan Peterson it was his severe reaction to apple cider ("knocked him out" for a month), and his daughter Mikhaila had a severe reaction from a soy/miso meal.

And I just came across another similar anecdote from a carnivore diet person in this interview with Shawn Baker on Joe Rogan when he said that — after being an the carnivore diet for awhile — he got back pain from eating apples.

I'm about 4 months in to the VA elimination diet, and I seem to have gotten gradually more sensitive to VA over time. I'm highly sensitive to it right now. It's gotten to the point where I feel better if I eliminate the last remaining low VA foods in my diet like sauerkraut and mustard.

Also, I tried introducing all-beef summer sausage and that gave me dryer eyes, dry mouth and dry lips — so presumably there is some additional VA in that compared to just plain beef steaks and roasts. (Grant has mentioned that he doesn't trust ground meat).

What's yoghurt, back pain from apples, acv, soy got to do with vitamin A?

 

[franko]

What's yoghurt, back pain from apples, acv, soy got to do with vitamin A?

Well, presumably in these cases it was VA (some retinoid or carotenoid) that was causing these reactions. Because that's the theory. But with these anecdotes we don't have perfect and complete information on what they consumed so we can't say for sure one way or another. And it's not always easy to figure this VA stuff out.

For example, in my case, nonfat yogurt gave me a severe dry eyes reaction and I suspect it was because it had retinoic acid in it — which can be synthesized from heating and oxidizing retinol. So it said 0% Vitamin A on the label — and they may be correct that it has zero retinol — but that doesn't mean there's not any retinoic acid because its a different substance and requires a different process to detect. And as far as I can tell, food scientists don't even look for retinoic acid in foods.

Also, pasteurized/processed dairy is a plausible suspect for having retinoic acid since it has some retinol naturally to begin with and then it is processed. (Btw, this will make more sense if you read Grant's books, specifically in Ch. 5 of PFP, where he talks about the processed casein in the supposed VA deficient diets being a likely source of inadvertently introduced retinoic acid to their test subject's diet).

In Shawn Baker's case, well there is ~100 IU in one apple. Which sounds like a tiny amount. But that's the whole point. I'm hypothesizing that perhaps on a low or deplete VA diet (e.g. the all-beef diet) one can developed such increased VA sensitivity that even 100 IUs could cause symptoms.

In the case of the Mikhaila Peterson, she said she had a severe reaction to a meal of "miso soup with tofu, with edamame beans, covered in soy sauce". Not all of those are said to have VA in them, but edamame for example has ~300 IU per 100 grams. But again, the hypothesis here is super-sensitivity to VA after being on a low VA diet — so its enough IMO to say that this meal could have some small amount of VA.

[Side note: There is another unknown (to me at least) variable here. Which is the question: could processed plant foods have retinoic acid in them which was converted from their carotenes in processing? I don't know. There are studies to confirm that you can "destroy" the retinol in foods via heating and aeration (see page 100 of PFP) and that it presumably converts it to retinoic acid. But I don't know if any kind of processing can also produce RA from carotenes.]

And I don't know what Jordan Peterson ate exactly, but based on what he said, I think he meant apple cider as in the drink — he never said vinegar. And if there is VA in apples than presumably there can be VA in apple cider drinks. But since it's just one man's anecdote and we don't have complete and perfect information, proving that it had VA is not as important as concluding that it is a plausible source of VA. Furthermore, the information Jordan gives us is just what he thinks caused his reaction (he said he thinks it was the sulfites in the cider that caused the reaction). But he might have eaten something else along with it that he did not mention because he did not think it was important. So we can't really know anyway. If you want to toss those examples out because we don't know exactly what they ate and how much VA it has — that's fine — I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it.

I think there are enough examples and plausible theoretical explanations to make my point which is just to warn people of increased VA sensitivity when going on a low VA diet. And to suggest a plausible hypothesis of what could be causing that increased VA sensitivity.

 

[raypeatclips]

Well, presumably in these cases it was VA (some retinoid or carotenoid) that was causing these reactions. Because that's the theory. But with these anecdotes we don't have perfect and complete information on what they consumed so we can't say for sure one way or another. And it's not always easy to figure this VA stuff out.

For example, in my case, nonfat yogurt gave me a severe dry eyes reaction and I suspect it was because it had retinoic acid in it — which can be synthesized from heating and oxidizing retinol. So it said 0% Vitamin A on the label — and they may be correct that it has zero retinol — but that doesn't mean there's not any retinoic acid because its a different substance and requires a different process to detect. And as far as I can tell, food scientists don't even look for retinoic acid in foods.

Also, pasteurized/processed dairy is a plausible suspect for having retinoic acid since it has some retinol naturally to begin with and then it is processed. (Btw, this will make more sense if you read Grant's books, specifically in Ch. 5 of PFP, where he talks about the processed casein in the supposed VA deficient diets being a likely source of inadvertently introduced retinoic acid to their test subject's diet).

In Shawn Baker's case, well there is ~100 IU in one apple. Which sounds like a tiny amount. But that's the whole point. I'm hypothesizing that perhaps on a low or deplete VA diet (e.g. the all-beef diet) one can developed such increased VA sensitivity that even 100 IUs could cause symptoms.

In the case of the Mikhaila Peterson, she said she had a severe reaction to a meal of "miso soup with tofu, with edamame beans, covered in soy sauce". Not all of those are said to have VA in them, but edamame for example has ~300 IU per 100 grams. But again, the hypothesis here is super-sensitivity to VA after being on a low VA diet — so its enough IMO to say that this meal could have some small amount of VA.

And I don't know what Jordan ate exactly, but based on what he said, I think he meant the apple cider drink — he never said vinegar. And if there is VA in apples than presumably there can be VA in apple cider drinks. But since it's just one man's anecdote and we don't have complete and perfect information, proving that it had VA is not as important as concluding that it is a plausible source of VA. Furthermore, the information Jordan gives us is just what he thinks caused his reaction (he said he thinks it was the sulfites in the cider that caused the reaction). But he might have eaten something else along with it that he did not mention because he did not think it was important. So we can't really know anyway. If you want to toss those examples out because we don't know exactly what they ate and how much VA it has — that's fine — I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it.

I think there are enough examples and plausible theoretical explanations to make my point which is just to warn people of increased VA sensitivity when going on a low VA diet. And to suggest a plausible hypothesis of what could be causing that increased VA sensitivity.

At what point would you say you are fitting circular pieces into your triangular shaped theory, when 0 IU vitamin A foods cause "vitamin A" reactions? Serious question.

Can you or Grant provide me with a list of foods and their retinoic acid content? I am struggling to find one, and if you guys don't have a list, then how can you possibly conclude that the retinoic acid content of some vitamin A content foods at 0 IU, or not far off it, that these foods are causing "Vitamin A" reactions?

Lots of people have all sorts of food sensitivities, I get horrible gut reactions from kale, but don't blame vitamin A. Seafood, but don't blame the A, peanuts etc. People react badly to things such as potatoes, but don't blame vitamin A. Earlier on I was intrigued by your theory, but now I feel like its just not becoming plausible. I do not believe that someones back pain from apple juice was caused by vitamin A.

Also, you say after months on this diet, vitamin A sensitivity gets worse. If I was undertaking a diet, I would want my sensitivities to lessen, for my bodies robustness to increase. Suddenly developing severe allergies and reactions to very normal foods, months down the line, would be a big red flag for me that this diet isn't healthy, or doing my body good. That doesn't sound like you are getting healthier to me.

 

[franko]

At what point would you say you are fitting circular pieces into your triangular shaped theory, when 0 IU vitamin A foods cause "vitamin A" reactions? Serious question.

If these are indeed serious questions, then I recommend you read chapter 5 of PFP.

I don't mean this to be insulting, but you probably aren't going to understand it until you read his material. I knew nothing about VA or retinoic acid (RA) before reading Grant's material. There are probably very few people out there who have heard of RA before this, much less understand what it is and what it does in the body. I don't know everything there is to know about VA and RA, but I understand it enough to know that it's entirely plausible. And I think you should read the books before you "conclude" that it's not.

Can you or Grant provide me with a list of foods and their retinoic acid content? I am struggling to find one, and if you guys don't have a list, then how can you possibly conclude that the retinoic acid content of some vitamin A content foods at 0 IU, or not far off it, that these foods are causing "Vitamin A" reactions?

> "Can you or Grant provide me with a list of foods and their retinoic acid content?"

I wish that existed but I don't think it does. Apparently, no one has ever thought that it would be valuable to test foods for their RA content. But when Grant's theory gets out there, maybe that will change.

> "how can you possibly conclude that the retinoic acid content of some vitamin A content foods at 0 IU, or not far off it, that these foods are causing "Vitamin A" reactions"

I am not "concluding" I am hypothesizing.

It is a plausible hypothesis, for example, that processed dairy could have RA in it. You've got to do more research if you want to understand why that's plausible. (Again, you could start by reading Ch. 5 of PFP). And if a processed dairy food causes a classic VA/RA reaction (e.g. dry eyes) it actually makes perfect sense according to Grant's theory.

> "Suddenly developing severe allergies and reactions to very normal foods, months down the line, would be a big red flag for me that this diet isn't healthy, or doing my body good. That doesn't sound like you are getting healthier to me."

It has only been when I (accidentally or purposely) introduced VA back into my diet that I get bad reactions. Overall my health is significantly and obviously much improved compared to 4+ months ago. And when I talk about bad reactions, I'm saying relative to the better health I have now.

The most significant bad reactions I have had to a reintroduced VA food have not even been as bad as the worst, most acute symptoms I had before — in fact, in the case of dry eyes and mouth ulcers those are just the same symptoms I used to have regularly before — which is to say, no worse than before.

So note that I never said my experience was exactly the same as the Peterson's. All of my "whoops I reintroduced VA and my symptoms have returned" experiences have been no worse than my symptoms were before I started this diet. They have just been minor setbacks compared to my health progress.

The reason I hypothesize about increased sensitivity is because I got the same or less severe reactions as I have in the past in spite of eating much less VA than I used to consume. And presumably, this state of increased sensitivity will just be a temporary "detox" state for those who had exceeded their body's retinol storage capacity, and you will get your tolerance back when your body (including your liver) has depleted its retinol stores. In theory, when you have depleted your body's retinol stores, you should be able to regularly consume a moderate amount of VA and suffer no ill effects at all.

 

[Travis]

> "Can you or Grant provide me with a list of foods and their retinoic acid content?"

I wish that existed but I don't think it does. Apparently, no one has ever thought that it would be valuable to test foods for their RA content. But when Grant's theory gets out there, maybe that will change.

Reason would dictate that the retinoic acid concentration of any food would be directly proportional to its retinol concentration. Considerations such as enzymatic activity and NADH∶NAD⁺ could certainly play a role, but in most organisms there exists a mix of: the 1° alcohol, the aldehyde, and the corresponding carboxylic acid of the molecular species. Considering tryptophan metabolites in the human liver, for example, you have a mix of: hydroxytryptophol, hydroxyindole aldehyde, and hydroxyindole acetic acid. Although enzymes can help determine the relative proportions of each congener, conversions between each form do occur spontaneously—especially upon storage.

Alcohol dehydrogenase is bidirectional and coverts a species between its alcohol and aldehyde congener, in turn dependent on the NADH∶NAD⁺ ratio of the cell. One water molecule then attacks the carbonyl carbon of the aldehyde, which: (1) adds another oxygen, (2) releases a proton, and (3) yields the corresponding carboxylic acid. Such exemplary trios are found in nature: (1) ethanol, acetaldehyde, acetic acid; (2) hydroxytryptophol, hydroxyindole aldehyde, hydroxyindole acetic acid; and (3) retinol, retinaldehyde, retinoic acid. I think it would be absurd to assume a retinol-free food would have non-negligible retinoic acid, especially one never having retinol to begin with.

 

[postman]

In Shawn Baker's case, well there is ~100 IU in one apple. Which sounds like a tiny amount. But that's the whole point. I'm hypothesizing that perhaps on a low or deplete VA diet (e.g. the all-beef diet) one can developed such increased VA sensitivity that even 100 IUs could cause symptoms.

I think this Shawn Baker example probably has nothing to do with VA. Beef has about 100 IU VA per pound. If If tolerates eating multiple pounds of beef daily he should tolerate the VA in a single apple without having a severe reaction. Meat is a very low VA food but it's not zero, if you want zero you pretty much have to stick to grains and certain beans.

 

[franko]

Reason would dictate that the retinoic acid concentration of any food would be directly proportional to its retinol concentration. Considerations such as enzymatic activity and NADH∶NAD⁺ could certainly play a role, but in most organisms there exists a mix of: the 1° alcohol, the aldehyde, and the corresponding carboxylic acid of the molecular species. Considering tryptophan metabolites in the human liver, for example, you have a mix of: hydroxytryptophol, hydroxyindole aldehyde, and hydroxyindole acetic acid. Although enzymes can help determine the relative proportions of each congener, conversions between each form do occur spontaneously—especially upon storage.



Alcohol dehydrogenase is bidirectional and coverts a species between its alcohol and aldehyde congener, in turn dependent on the NADH∶NAD⁺ ratio of the cell. One water molecule then attacks the carbonyl carbon of the aldehyde, which: (1) adds another oxygen, (2) releases a proton, and (3) yields the corresponding carboxylic acid. Such exemplary trios are found in nature: (1) ethanol, acetaldehyde, acetic acid; (2) hydroxytryptophol, hydroxyindole aldehyde, hydroxyindole acetic acid; and (3) retinol, retinaldehyde, retinoic acid. I think it would be absurd to assume a retinol-free food would have non-negligible retinoic acid, especially one never having retinol to begin with.

> "Reason would dictate that the retinoic acid concentration of any food would be directly proportional to its retinol concentration."

Interesting.

Since you obviously have biochemistry knowledge, I would greatly appreciate if you weighed in on the matter of foods which may have their retinol converted into retinoic acid by oxidation.

Is it plausible that, as was done in many of the original VA deficiency diets, the process by which they "inactivated" casein (i.e. "destroyed" the retinol by heating and aeration) was actually just converting that retinol into retinoic acid?

It seems that the scientists at the time knew and understood they could "destroy" the retinol with heating and aeration, as you can read in this study:

Hopkins, 1920 - The Effects of Heat and Aeration upon the Fat-soluble Vitamine
The Effects of Heat and Aeration upon the Fat-soluble Vitamine

"It will be seen that the experiments described show in the clearest way that while the fat-soluble A factor is relatively resistant to the effects of heat alone, it is easily destroyed by aeration, presumably because it is a substance prone to oxidation."​

And in that study they demonstrated that the rats fed on this oxidized butter (heated and aerated) showed symptoms of xerophthalmia, which they interpret as proof they have "destroyed" the vitamin A.

But this fits Grant's theory too. Because his theory is that, in actuality, that processing converts retinol into retinoic acid. And the results were demonstrating retinoic acid poisoning.

So it is a cornerstone of Grant's theory that the explanation for many of these original deficiency experiments is that they unknowingly added retinoic acid into their "deficiency" diets by the heating/oxidation of some retinol source (e.g. casein or lard or what have you) and so their experiments were, in reality, demonstrating the effects of retinoic acid poisoning which they wrongly interpreted as being caused by VA deficiency. And that's what explains the dramatic disease effects seen so commonly in these studies — e.g. majority of the rats are sick and dead within 10 weeks time.

So it would seem the first step in backing up this theory, is to answer the question: Can heating and aeration of a retinol-rich food convert its retinol into retinoic acid?

About this Grant says:

"Remember, retinol is easily converted into retinoic acid via oxidation. All that’s needed to create the oxidation reaction is heat and oxygen."
​

So do you think it is plausible that these diets could be introducing retinoic acid via the oxidation of retinol? I've attached a screenshot from Grant's book describing one of these "deficiency" diets which could have RA from oxidized casein.

 

[InChristAlone]

> "Reason would dictate that the retinoic acid concentration of any food would be directly proportional to its retinol concentration."

Interesting.

Since you obviously have biochemistry knowledge, I would greatly appreciate if you weighed in on the matter of foods which may have their retinol converted into retinoic acid by oxidation.

Is it plausible that, as was done in many of the original VA deficiency diets, the process by which they "inactivated" casein (i.e. "destroyed" the retinol by heating and aeration) was actually just converting that retinol into retinoic acid?

It seems that the scientists at the time knew and understood they could "destroy" the retinol with heating and aeration, as you can read in this study:

Hopkins, 1920 - The Effects of Heat and Aeration upon the Fat-soluble Vitamine
The Effects of Heat and Aeration upon the Fat-soluble Vitamine

"It will be seen that the experiments described show in the clearest way that while the fat-soluble A factor is relatively resistant to the effects of heat alone, it is easily destroyed by aeration, presumably because it is a substance prone to oxidation."​

And in that study they demonstrated that the rats fed on this oxidized butter (heated and aerated) showed symptoms of xerophthalmia, which they interpret as proof they have "destroyed" the vitamin A.

But this fits Grant's theory too. Because his theory is that, in actuality, that processing converts retinol into retinoic acid. And the results were demonstrating retinoic acid poisoning.

So it is a cornerstone of Grant's theory that the explanation for many of these original deficiency experiments is that they unknowingly added retinoic acid into their "deficiency" diets by the heating/oxidation of some retinol source (e.g. casein or lard or what have you) and so their experiments were, in reality, demonstrating the effects of retinoic acid poisoning which they wrongly interpreted as being caused by VA deficiency. And that's what explains the dramatic disease effects seen so commonly in these studies — e.g. majority of the rats are sick and dead within 10 weeks time.

So it would seem the first step in backing up this theory, is to answer the question: Can heating and aeration of a retinol-rich food convert its retinol into retinoic acid?

About this Grant says:

"Remember, retinol is easily converted into retinoic acid via oxidation. All that’s needed to create the oxidation reaction is heat and oxygen."
​

So do you think it is plausible that these diets could be introducing retinoic acid via the oxidation of retinol? I've attached a screenshot from Grant's book describing one of these "deficiency" diets which could have RA from oxidized casein.

View attachment 10071

But how oxidized were they?? The standard lab rat diet is pretty darn processed nowadays:
"Ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, fish meal, wheat
middlings, cane molasses, dehydrated alfalfa meal, soybean oil,
brewers dried yeast, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, ground
oats, dicalcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate, calcium
carbonate, salt, DL-methionine, choline chloride, vitamin A
acetate, cholecalciferol, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol
bisulfite (vitamin K), pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin,
thiamin mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, dl-alpha
tocopheryl acetate, nicotinic acid, calcium pantothenate,
riboflavin, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate,
copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate,
sodium selenite"

Not sure what it was back then, but wouldn't the lab rats of today be showing all these supposed VA toxic effects?

 

[franko]

But how oxidized were they?? The standard lab rat diet is pretty darn processed nowadays:
"Ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, fish meal, wheat
middlings, cane molasses, dehydrated alfalfa meal, soybean oil,
brewers dried yeast, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, ground
oats, dicalcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate, calcium
carbonate, salt, DL-methionine, choline chloride, vitamin A
acetate, cholecalciferol, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol
bisulfite (vitamin K), pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin,
thiamin mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, dl-alpha
tocopheryl acetate, nicotinic acid, calcium pantothenate,
riboflavin, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate,
copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate,
sodium selenite"

Not sure what it was back then, but wouldn't the lab rats of today be showing all these supposed VA toxic effects?

> But how oxidized were they?

Well, the whole point of the oxidation process, from their perspective, was to destroy all of the vitamin A — because they were trying to create a VA deficient diet. But the problem is that in the early studies they seem to have "measured" the "deactivation" of vitamin A by feeding the diet to rats and detecting VA "deficiency" diseases.

Which, according to Grant's theory, worked because the degree to which they "destroyed" the VA was the degree to which it was oxidized into retinoic acid.

> Not sure what it was back then, but wouldn't the lab rats of today be showing all these supposed VA toxic effects?

Well, in any diet you'd have to find a plausible source of oxidized retinol. But we can just read what it was back then. These studies usually tell us what they used for their "deficiency" diets.

Like this one shown on p. 100 of PFP:

And it references a study by Goldblatt and Moritz in 1926 wherein they describe this process for "deactivating" the casein:

In the diet of Group I the casein, in thin layers, on large trays, had been heated at from 105-110°C. for 36 hours (three periods of 12 hours each) in an oven through which a good current of air was constantly blowing. The casein was raked over thoroughly about every hour. In the diet of Group II the casein was treated in the same manner and for the same length of time, but the temperature at which it was heated was between 125 and 130°C.​

So if it is indeed biochemically accurate to say that all you need to convert retinol to retinoic acid is heat and oxygen, then that would seem to do the job.