Fasting Inhibits Proper Thyroid Function

[Kibs]

I have fasted for years on and off, more on.
There might be benifits there might not for people regarding health but the benifits for me personally are =

1. More energy, when ever I eat I feel sluggish and in my job feeling sluggish when your on your feet 12 hours a day is not good.
2. Food satiety, taking 1 or 2 bigger meals in feels good and more natural (TO ME)
3. I believe in cals in cals out, basically whatever time in the 24 hours you take in the same cals doesn’t matter but there’s something about fasting that keeps me leaner, but this could be do to not overeating that I would do if eating all day.

The thing is we should all be eating when we want, if you feel better eating 3 meals a day, 6 meals or 1 and all at once or through the day or grazing......if it make you feel better or accomplish goals then it’s right for you. One way of eating might be less effective by 5% in what ever way of health your looking at but does it matter and in the long run....

 

[papaya]

i think ray peat said that fasting dissolves/destroys thymus? i think he was talking about pure fasting when he said this.

 

[DuggaDugga]

i think ray peat said that fasting dissolves/destroys thymus? i think he was talking about pure fasting when he said this.

He was talking about fasting/low-carb dieting to the point your body releases cortisol as part of the initiation gluconeogensis partially funded by the amino acids of your thymus gland/skeletal muscle. When you reach that point will depend on your daily activities and subsequent energy requirements, length of time without eating, what you eat when you do eat, and liver efficiency. Anyone on this forum talking about fasting being defined as X hours but not Y hours is ignoring the fact there is no single "RDA" that works unequivocally. Just follow your appetite.

 

[noordinary]

He was talking about fasting/low-carb dieting to the point your body releases cortisol as part of the initiation gluconeogensis partially funded by the amino acids of your thymus gland/skeletal muscle. When you reach that point will depend on your daily activities and subsequent energy requirements, length of time without eating, what you eat when you do eat, and liver efficiency. Anyone on this forum talking about fasting being defined as X hours but not Y hours is ignoring the fact there is no single "RDA" that works unequivocally. Just follow your appetite.

Yep, you are right:
this study put it all together Ultrastructure of the thymus in diabetes mellitus and starvation
"Fasting and hypoglycaemia are stressful conditions for animals. Robinson et al. reported that hypoglycaemia increased plasma glucocorticoid levels and glucocorticoids have been known to be potent inducers of thymocyte apoptosis.11,12 Thus, hypoglycaemia may trigger apoptosis of thymocytes. In this study we observed increased apoptosis in hypoglycaemic rats and a better histological appearance in insulin-treated ones. It has been stated in many studies that fasting and streptozotocin injection have caused apoptosis and a considerable decrease in the number of thymocytes in thymus parenchyma.1,9,11,12 However, the majority of these studies did not use electron microscopy. Our study supports the literature but uses electron microscopy. An increase in thymocyte apoptosis was observed under light and electron microscope particularly in the 24-h and 48-h fasting+diabetes groups. A considerable decrease in typical apoptotic-appearing cells was monitored as a result of insulin application. The most dramatic tissue damage was observed in groups to whom fasting stress and diabetes were applied together. However, in these tissue samples significant mast-cell infiltration and a decrease in thymus parenchyma was detected. Many scientists have described thymus involution and atrophy in diabetic rats.1,9,11,13 Our findings show thymocyte loss and connective tissue increase, which support these findings and thereby suggest atrophy and involution of the thymus. We observed a restoration towards normal thymus structure with insulin treatment. Similar findings have been described in other studies.11,13,14 Tabata and colleagues reported that insulin treatment resulted in complete reversal of pathologic changes in the thymus.14 The effect of diabetes on the immune system, in particular the thymus glands, when combined with stress was the topic of this study. We conclude that the thymus is negatively affected by diabetes in structural terms, and when accompanied by stress this negative effect increases. Only insulin treatment was found to have a positive effect on the thymus. Our findings are based on the comparison of light and electron microscopic sections examined. Because relationships between the thymus and diabetes depend on very complex molecular interactions, further molecular and quantitative studies should be performed."

 

[noordinary]

Also look at those experiments with starving cats (late 1800s, i was not able to locate the original study by Voit), the picture is from Researches on Pre-Natal Life by Sir Joseph Barcroft i’m reading right now:

The experiment was on cats, and that was a prologend (for 13 days) starvation experiment.
Check out those testes lost 40% of their weight.
Though experiments on cats cant be 100 percent extrapolated to humans, but they get us the idea. @ecstatichamster

 

[ecstatichamster]

40% of their weight

 

[rei]

cat, rat etc. experiments are completely void of meaning when talking about human fasting, we have a profoundly different adaptation to ketosis metabolism.

Also, seeking arguments from prolonged fasting is quite funny. Most people that advocate for fasting talk about it in the context of 1-3 days, or often intermittent, like 20 hrs at a time. Again, completely different response and prove to be beneficial in numerous studies.

Prolonged fasting is only done in the context of religious mission or medical intervention like last-ditch attempt at conquering obesity.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

This must be exactly what happened to me.
What that study doesn't say though, is that these changes are nearly impossible to reverse. 6 years and counting.

 

[noordinary]

Also, seeking arguments from prolonged fasting is quite funny. Most people that advocate for fasting talk about it in the context of 1-3 days, or often intermittent, like 20 hrs at a time. Again, completely different response and prove to be beneficial in numerous studies.

the study on rats posted above is about fasting for 24 hours and 48 hours and found damage to thymus gland of those mice (more severe in 48-hours fasting group)

cat, rat etc. experiments are completely void of meaning when talking about human fasting, we have a profoundly different adaptation to ketosis metabolism.

I doubt that you can take 2 groups of humans: kill one group at the beginning of the experiment and weight their organs and starve another group and then kill them too and weight their organs to compare and see which organs lost more weight? So we are stuck with animal experiments.
As for ketosis, let me explain it as simple as possible:
until your glycogen stores are depleted you do not get rise in adrenaline and cortisol. And that may be 30 minutes for sick people and up to who knows, maybe there are such healthy people who can fast for 20 hours and still not deplete their glycogen stores. But they aren't actually fasting, because they still have glycogen.
Ketosis do not take place until your glycogen stores are depleted and cortisol rises. Again ketosis do not take place until your cortisol is elevated.
The study above and other studies conclude that elevated cortisol is a potent inducer of apoptosis (as in thymus gland in the study above).
As for the benefits of fasting (read starvation) decrease of endotoxin load may be the main one.

And my message was: don't fool yourself thinking that while fasting you only "dissolve" fat stores in the body, you dissolve organs as well at different rates: for example your testicles (if you have ones of course, but maybe the ovaries get damaged as well)

From the study Tissue-Specific Actions of Glucocorticoids on Apoptosis: A Double-Edged Sword
- glucocorticoids have anti-proliferative and pro-apoptotic effects on osteoblasts, the cells responsible for bone formation
- glucocorticoids have been shown to exert apoptotic effects on cells of the cartilage, or chondrocytes
- excess of glucocorticoids can lead to the development of myopathy, a disease resulting in muscle weakness. Mechanisms of GC-induced myopathy include increased protein catabolism and GC-induced apoptosis.
- In the respiratory system, glucocorticoids can induce apoptosis in airway smooth muscle cells (ASMC)
- GC-induced endothelium apoptosis
- nervous tissues that undergo GC-induced apoptosis include the brain, where high levels of circulating glucocorticoids can have an effect despite the presence of the blood-brain barrier.
- pericytes (central nervous system is highly vascularized, and contains specialized cells called pericytes, which wrap around endothelial cells and support blood vessel homeostasis) isolated and cultured from the central nervous system of rat micro vessels were found to exhibit dexamethasone-induced apoptosis
- organs of the digestive system include the mouth, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, pancreas, liver, gallbladder, and colon. Most of the literature of GC-induced apoptosis in the digestive system focuses on epithelial cell types.
- pancreas, which produces insulin, is highly susceptible to the apoptotic effects of glucocorticoids
- in rats, dexamethasone treatment in vivo can induce apoptosis in the placenta, which may contribute to pregnancy complications such as fetal growth retardation
etc.
Elevated cortisol to get into ketosis anyone?

 

[rei]

In human time that is equivalent to 30-60 days fast. In addition as i said, humans are adapted to and do very well while fasting.

Starvation starts when you run out of fat. Before that apoptosis happens almost exclusively to damaged cells.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

you dissolve organs as well at different rates: for example your testicles (if you have ones of course, but maybe the ovaries get damaged as well)

False. You do use some muscle tissue but by around 14 days almost all calories are coming exclusively from adipose tissue. You don't use organs for sugar. If we did then everyone would be dead within a few days from the start. There are also tests to measure these things. If you increase activity while in water-only induced ketosis then you'll use more protein tissue but that's why proponents recommend to stay in a resting state. Also most who do MSWOF aren't concerned with losing some protein. It's not a big deal because it will easily be put back on but also many feel that it is actually healthy to lose some of that specific muscle tissue because it may be an anti-caner strategy.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

So we are stuck with animal experiments.

No we're not. We have data from the only place that does this in the country. The reason why there is not a lot of data from elsewhere is because there's no one else who does it because it's expensive to do it with humans.

Start here: Low Fat Diet/fasting Reverses 42 Yr Old Woman's Cancer, Published In British Medical Jounral

She did not dissolve her organs as well as the other 16,000 people who've fasted there.

 

[noordinary]

@Westside PUFAs I think you mixed up your guesses on what starving body "prefers to eat" when it comes to it's own tissues

You don't use organs for sugar.

and that cortisol induces apoptosis in many tissues (although in some to greater degree than in others)

hypoglycaemia increased plasma glucocorticoid levels and glucocorticoids have been known to be potent inducers of thymocyte apoptosis

Glucocorticoids are potent inducers of apoptosis.
Tissue-Specific Actions of Glucocorticoids on Apoptosis: A Double-Edged Sword

And i did say that:

As for the benefits of fasting (read starvation) decrease of endotoxin load may be the main one.

As for

No we're not. We have data from the only place that does this in the country. The reason why there is not a lot of data from elsewhere is because there's no one else who does it because it's expensive to do it with humans.

Please provide the data that compares organs size and weight of non fasting vs fasted humans (brain would be of most interest lol). I'm genially interested and would like to see, that would be interesting and would definitely add to my understanding of the subject. Actually that probably can be done with some approximation with maybe CT scans of that kind of technology, maybe.
Did read that:
Low Fat Diet/fasting Reverses 42 Yr Old Woman's Cancer, Published In British Medical Jounral
how do you know that some of her organs didn't shrink and all of her 22 lbs weight loss in 21 days was from fat?

She did not dissolve her organs as well as the other 16,000 people who've fasted there.

Now, I don't want to belittle those people's healing stories, extreme circumstances called for extreme measures and they won, at least they won to cancer.

But I draw a fine line for myself between THRIVING and SURVIVING, between expending and shrinking away:
and fasting is surviving, it is not in the same category as chemo, but starvation does increase apoptosis as chemo does too.
And that may be one of the mechanisms they both share in common, that works on shrinking the tumors, as tumors are sensitive to apoptosis signaling.
I would say that the opposite of 'survival' method called fasting would be 'thriving' method of incorporating charcoal for decreasing endotoxin load

Ray's response suggests charcoal can probably do the same as the fasting and plant diet.

There are stories of cancer healing using not 'surviving' methods but 'thriving' methods as well.
Cancer

The study I posted a while ago somewhat summarizes
Tissue-Specific Actions of Glucocorticoids on Apoptosis: A Double-Edged Sword
and @Westside PUFAs you cannot deny that when glycogen stores in the body are exhausted the cortisol will rise.

In human time that is equivalent to 30-60 days fast.

Where this assumption is coming from? Rats do have higher metabolic rate than humans but not 30-60 time, as I remember it's about 7ish time higher.
Or are you just comparing lifespans of humans and rats? If yes, that is much more complex than that.

humans are adapted to and do very well while fasting

Yes humans do adapt to fasting and many other things, but I don't see how you can use the ability to adapt as an argument?
Again please elaborate what do you mean in the above quotes of yours? What is that "very well"?

 

[EndAllDisease]

Great study! That's a very useful one to cite to all the crazy vegans and sun-eaters out there when they claim fasting is healthy.

It's also useful when dealing with people who advocate a ketogenic diet since the absence of blood sugar will trigger lipolysis just the same.

 

[noordinary]

Great study! That's a very useful one to cite to all the crazy vegans and sun-eaters out there when they claim fasting is healthy.

It's also useful when dealing with people who advocate a ketogenic diet since the absence of blood sugar will trigger lipolysis just the same.

The funny thing is
When i was vegan I remember someone told me a story about red meat consumption and heart disease:
that in TX (or in some other state with high red meat consumption, I don't recall which state it was) there was a campaign advocation for men to eat less red meat as this was considered a risk for heart disease. And that the campaign was a complete failure as very few if any men decreased their red meat consumption, saying that they'd rather die than stop eating the food they enjoy. But that the second campaign stated that before you get your major artery leading from the heart clogged, you get other arteries clogged and the one in particular in your groin that leads to physical impotence. And that at the sound of "impotence" men started to give up red meat no problem.

I think emphasizing the shrinkage of the testis when fasting could be a sound argument for men to not do it. LOL

 

[papaya]

according to goldbuev, the way to reap the true healing benefits of fasting is for your organs to start breaking down. this is why very long fasts are suggested for healing disease.

 

[Andman]

seems legit, who needs organs anyway?

 

[EndAllDisease]

And that the campaign was a complete failure as very few if any men decreased their red meat consumption, saying that they'd rather die than stop eating the food they enjoy.

Bahahah! YEAHHH!!
Oh man, yeah the testicle shrinkage would stop me in a heartbeat. It's why I'll never experiment with higher doses of testosterone again.
DHEA, of course.

 

[rei]

@Westside PUFAs
Where this assumption is coming from? Rats do have higher metabolic rate than humans but not 30-60 time, as I remember it's about 7ish time higher.
Or are you just comparing lifespans of humans and rats? If yes, that is much more complex than that.

Yes humans do adapt to fasting and many other things, but I don't see how you can use the ability to adapt as an argument?
Again please elaborate what do you mean in the above quotes of yours? What is that "very well"?

Yes, lifespan. Even if you only took 7 times as the multiplier, it is still a very long fast compared to normal fasts for humans. 1-3 days commonly.


Also, as i said earlier, don't take rat studies too seriously, only about 20% of them show similar results in humans: Why animal studies are often poor predictors of human reactions to exposure

"Very well" means that while you are in ketosis your lean muscle mass will increase and fat decrease in proportion to body weight. This is healthy by all standards so humans thrive to be occasionally in catabolic state in contrast to constantly being anabolic.

 

[papaya]

seems legit, who needs organs anyway?

seems legit, who needs organs anyway?

i know, it sounds crazy, but he cured himself of cancer. my guess is that at the point your organs start deteriorating so do your tumors? i knew someone who did many long fasts & was very pro fasting & a few yrs later i ran into her & she completely changed her point of view on fasting & said she thinks they are health damaging long term.