Fasting Inhibits Proper Thyroid Function

[DuggaDugga]

Maybe what’s beneficial here is to define fasting contextually. Do you mean, instead of eating microwaveable meals and seed oil fried foods you’re not eating? Yeah, i suppose there’s an argument to be made for not eating at all rather than eating toxic preservatives and PUFA, in the short term. Or do you mean that, in response to a natural hunger response you’re going to just not eat organic, whole foods that replenish your hepatic glycogen, provide substrates for glutathione synthesis, maintain insulin sensitivity, promote thyroid activation, and other fundamental physiolocal processes supporting general well-being. If you’re talking about the latter, you’ll have to provide good evidence that high thyroid and low cortisol are undesirable. Otherwise it simply makes no sense to me you would just not respond to your appetite. Anecdotally, nothing elevates my mood like a nice meal. Scientifically, nothing about chronically elevated stress hormones for the sake of an ideological approach to diet strikes me as appropriate. But by all means, provide evidence that says fasting is better than eating healthy food, as I’ve provided you evidence of the undesirable physiological consequences to fasting already. In the mean time, I’ll be frying up some liver in butter to top with Parmesan to go with leftover collared greens :) more for me!

 

[michael94]

food cart goes in
manure cart exits
2 argue on an internet forum
another calls for context
loop dee loop
the mundane approach never gains ground
its always the same
and repeats

 

[dbh25]

natural hunger response

Define please

 

[TubZy]

All these claims are more wishful thinking than reality. Yes, fasting can in some cases be beneficial, but fasting in itself is not. It's more an absence of bad dietary factors. Fasting itself harms the reproductive system, causes you to lose lots of lean tissue, is more likely to decrease your insulin sensitivity due to the influence of increased NEFA on beta cells, and can harm several generations (ask the Dutch). The story of fasting as a practice to "reset" and "rebuild" the body is a fairytale just as your claim that it doesn't lower the metabolic rate.

See for example this study after 9 days of starvation.
"Thepercentage rise in free fatty acid after the fast tended to correspond with that in atypical insulin-like activity. Evidently fasting lessens the demand for insulin, despite its causing insulin resistance, possibly from fat mobilization" (Samaan et al. 1965)

Fasting insulin sensitivity indices are not better than routine clinical variables at predicting insulin sensitivity among Black Africans: a clamp study in sub-Saharan Africans
Effects of long-term fasting on insulin responses to fatty acids in man. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of acute starvation on insulin resistance in obese patients with and without type 2 diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of Obesity and of Starvation on Insulin Activity

Fasting insulin sensitivity indices are not better than routine clinical variables at predicting insulin sensitivity among Black Africans: a clamp study in sub-Saharan Africans

All volunteers were examined on two consecutive days, each after 12-h overnight fast and controlled diet and activity for 7 days. Participants had a diet consisting of 50% carbohydrates, 30% lipids, and 20% proteins, and vigorous physical exercise was prohibited. On day 1, we performed anthropometric measurements and an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), and on day 2, we performed a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic clamp.

More research efforts are needed to identify in this setting to identify affordable fasting indicators which, singly or in combination may improve the accuracy of insulin sensitivity prediction.


LOL, a 12 hour overnight fast? Most people do that everyday, I think you mean just sleeping, of course there isn't going to be much difference. Even if you wanted attempt to tie that into IF, it is still not close. IF is at least 16-18 hours.



Effects of long-term fasting on insulin responses to fatty acids in man. - PubMed - NCBI

After the overnight fast, insulin levels increased during Intralipid infusion, at min 120 reaching an increment of 33.0 +/- 8.5 microU/ml vs. 9.5 +/- 4.4 microU/ml during saline; p<0.05 for difference. Conversely, after the 58 h fast. Intralipid failed to promote a successive increase of insulin levels (increment during Intralipid at min 120: 0.5 +/- 5.8 microU/ml vs. -4.3 +/- 2.5 microU/ml during saline, NS). Insulin sensitivity as assessed by the amount of infused glucose and its ratio to insulin was enhanced by Intralipid after an overnight fast, but was decreased after a 58 h fast.


They are using an IV with saline and intralipid....this study is a wash.


Effects of acute starvation on insulin resistance in obese patients with and without type 2 diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI

Read the full study, they mentioned the insulin sensitivity improved as well - see below.

Effect of Obesity and of Starvation on Insulin Activity

You keep posting on type 2 diabetic and obese patients. Even the author mentioned several times that insulin activity can significantly vary in subjects that obese or diabetic already. You are just taking tidbits out of the conclusion or summary and not even putting the entire study into perspective, I thought you knew how to read studies the right way, not just jump right to the summary page and make a conclusion on that.

Regarding FFA, of course it is going to up you literally using your body fast as fuel. On top of that, the liver is dumping PUFA. If you are obese FFA is already high in blood and they are already insulin resistant as is, as they fast they are going to temporarily release more FFA until they eventually get leaner. That is why water fasting becomes dangerous when you are already very lean with little body fat.

I never said reset or rebuild anything in my previous post, you must not be able to comprehend English. I posted studies so many times about fasting and the immune system, brain, stem cell etc. on this forum, tired of spoon feeding you, use the search function.

And again I posted two studies demonstrating one that increase metabolism and the other with no change in metabolic rate yet you have done nothing to debunk the studies I posted. Keep trying.

 

[Kartoffel]

Fasting insulin sensitivity indices are not better than routine clinical variables at predicting insulin sensitivity among Black Africans: a clamp study in sub-Saharan Africans

All volunteers were examined on two consecutive days, each after 12-h overnight fast and controlled diet and activity for 7 days. Participants had a diet consisting of 50% carbohydrates, 30% lipids, and 20% proteins, and vigorous physical exercise was prohibited. On day 1, we performed anthropometric measurements and an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), and on day 2, we performed a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic clamp.

More research efforts are needed to identify in this setting to identify affordable fasting indicators which, singly or in combination may improve the accuracy of insulin sensitivity prediction.


LOL, a 12 hour overnight fast? Most people do that everyday, I think you mean just sleeping, of course there isn't going to be much difference. Even if you wanted attempt to tie that into IF, it is still not close. IF is at least 16-18 hours.



Effects of long-term fasting on insulin responses to fatty acids in man. - PubMed - NCBI

After the overnight fast, insulin levels increased during Intralipid infusion, at min 120 reaching an increment of 33.0 +/- 8.5 microU/ml vs. 9.5 +/- 4.4 microU/ml during saline; p<0.05 for difference. Conversely, after the 58 h fast. Intralipid failed to promote a successive increase of insulin levels (increment during Intralipid at min 120: 0.5 +/- 5.8 microU/ml vs. -4.3 +/- 2.5 microU/ml during saline, NS). Insulin sensitivity as assessed by the amount of infused glucose and its ratio to insulin was enhanced by Intralipid after an overnight fast, but was decreased after a 58 h fast.


They are using an IV with saline and intralipid....this study is a wash.


Effects of acute starvation on insulin resistance in obese patients with and without type 2 diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI

Read the full study, they mentioned the insulin sensitivity improved as well - see below.

Effect of Obesity and of Starvation on Insulin Activity

You keep posting on type 2 diabetic and obese patients. Even the author mentioned several times that insulin activity can significantly vary in subjects that obese or diabetic already.

Regarding FFA, of course it is going to up you literally using your body fast as fuel. On top of that, the liver is dumping PUFA. If you are obese FFA is already high in blood and they are already insulin resistant as is, as they fast they are going to temporarily release more FFA until they eventually get leaner. That is why water fasting becomes dangerous when you are already lean with little body fat.

I never said reset or rebuild anything in my previous post, you must not be able to comprehend English. I posted studies so many times about fasting and the immune system, brain, stem cell etc. on this forum, tired of spoon feeding you, use the search function.

And again I posted two studies demonstrating one that increase metabolism and the other with no change in metabolic rate yet you have done nothing to debunk the studies I posted. Keep trying.

Lol. I posted one graph from a study that clearly showed a marked decrease in MR, and gave you a whole book with additional studies showig the same thing. I don't need to keep trying, I already succeeded disproving your nonsense. Here is another one, just for fun. It's not like there is a shortage of studies disproving your argument and the single researcher that you name . I'll use the search function for your valuable contributions, if you start using the search function on pubmed to find all the studies demonstrating that you are wrong.

Starvation-induced changes in metabolic rate, blood flow, and regional energy expenditure in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

"In comparison with overnight fasting, starvation for 5 d resulted in a 13% reduction in body weight, weight loss in many tissues and organs, a 26% reduction in MR, a decline of 0.5 degree C in Tc, decreased (a-v)O2 across both the PDV and HQ, reduced cardiac output, and decreased blood flow to the heart, PDV, skin, WAT, leg muscle, HQ, and the musculoskeletal body as a whole. Utilization of O2 by the PDV and HQ (flow X (a-v)O2) declined by amounts that accounted for 22 and 18%, respectively, of the reduction in MR. The reductions in cardiac output (18%) and heart blood flow (36%) indicate that the heart also made a contribution to energy conservation (roughly estimated as 5%)"

Edit: You haven't posted any study proving your point. The graph you posted is after 4 days. So, when you say that one study showed MR stayed the same and one showed it increased, which studies are you referring to? What is your evidence that long-term starvation doesn't result in a decline of MR? If your argument is built on the Catenacci et al. (2016) paper I am going to burst out laughing..

 

[TubZy]

Lol. I posted one graph from a study that clearly showed a marked decrease in MR, and gave you a whole book with additional studies showig the same thing. I don't need to keep trying, I already succeeded disproving your nonsense. Here is another one, just for fun. It's not like there is a shortage of studies disproving your argument and the single researcher that you cite. I'll use the search function for your valuable contributions, if you start using the search function on pubmed to find all the studies demonstrating that you are wrong.

Starvation-induced changes in metabolic rate, blood flow, and regional energy expenditure in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

"In comparison with overnight fasting, starvation for 5 d resulted in a 13% reduction in body weight, weight loss in many tissues and organs, a 26% reduction in MR, a decline of 0.5 degree C in Tc, decreased (a-v)O2 across both the PDV and HQ, reduced cardiac output, and decreased blood flow to the heart, PDV, skin, WAT, leg muscle, HQ, and the musculoskeletal body as a whole. Utilization of O2 by the PDV and HQ (flow X (a-v)O2) declined by amounts that accounted for 22 and 18%, respectively, of the reduction in MR. The reductions in cardiac output (18%) and heart blood flow (36%) indicate that the heart also made a contribution to energy conservation (roughly estimated as 5%)"

You screenshotted a graph from the reference section of some random book you found how about the actual full study? I asked you to post the full study here and you didn't do it? Based on the last studies you just posted it is obvious you don't read the entire full studies and just skip to the end and read the summary (and end up not even realizing you are contradicting yourself). I thought you said you actually understand studies?

I''ll give you some more studies.

Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI
Time-restricted feeding improves insulin resistance and hepatic steatosis in a mouse model of postmenopausal obesity. - PubMed - NCBI
Intermittent Fasting Promotes White Adipose Browning and Decreases Obesity by Shaping the Gut Microbiota. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males
Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. - PubMed - NCBI

The reason you think that starvation increases MR is the short-term energy burst that healthy people get for a few days because of all the adrenaline that is released. Long-term fasting will do the opposite.

How come there was no drop in MR? Oh and I thought you said fasting causes you to lose lots of lean tissue? LOL

A randomized pilot study comparing zero-calorie alternate-day fasting to daily caloric restriction in adults with obesity. - PubMed - NCBI

No adverse effects were attributed to ADF, and 93% completed the 8-week ADF protocol. At 8 weeks, ADF achieved a 376 kcal/day greater energy deficit; however, there were no significant between-group differences in change in weight (mean ± SE; ADF -8.2 ± 0.9 kg, CR -7.1 ± 1.0 kg), body composition, lipids, or Si. After 24 weeks of unsupervised follow-up, there were no significant differences in weight regain; however, changes from baseline in % fat mass and lean mass were more favorable in ADF.


Also, and you said fasting will cause metabolic slow down in the long run, why didn't it happen here even 24 weeks after resuming normal eating habits, the weight didn't come back?

ADF is a safe and tolerable approach to weight loss. ADF produced similar changes in weight, body composition, lipids, and Si at 8 weeks and did not appear to increase risk for weight regain 24 weeks after completing the intervention.

 

[Kartoffel]

You screenshotted a graph from the reference section of some random book you found how about the actual full study? I asked you to post the full study here and you didn't do it? Based on the last studies you just posted it is obvious you don't read the entire full studies and just skip to the end and read the summary (and end up not even realizing you are contradicting yourself). I thought you said you actually understand studies?

I''ll give you some more studies.

Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI
Time-restricted feeding improves insulin resistance and hepatic steatosis in a mouse model of postmenopausal obesity. - PubMed - NCBI
Intermittent Fasting Promotes White Adipose Browning and Decreases Obesity by Shaping the Gut Microbiota. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of eight weeks of time-restricted feeding (16/8) on basal metabolism, maximal strength, body composition, inflammation, and cardiovascular risk factors in resistance-trained males
Impact of intermittent fasting on health and disease processes. - PubMed - NCBI




How come there was no drop in MR? Oh and I thought you said fasting causes you to lose lots of lean tissue? LOL

A randomized pilot study comparing zero-calorie alternate-day fasting to daily caloric restriction in adults with obesity. - PubMed - NCBI

No adverse effects were attributed to ADF, and 93% completed the 8-week ADF protocol. At 8 weeks, ADF achieved a 376 kcal/day greater energy deficit; however, there were no significant between-group differences in change in weight (mean ± SE; ADF -8.2 ± 0.9 kg, CR -7.1 ± 1.0 kg), body composition, lipids, or Si. After 24 weeks of unsupervised follow-up, there were no significant differences in weight regain; however, changes from baseline in % fat mass and lean mass were more favorable in ADF.


Also, and you said fasting will cause metabolic slow down in the long run, why didn't it happen here even 24 weeks after resuming normal eating habits?

ADF is a safe and tolerable approach to weight loss. ADF produced similar changes in weight, body composition, lipids, and Si at 8 weeks and did not appear to increase risk for weight regain 24 weeks after completing the intervention.

You are unbelievable, dude. Do me a favor: Read the title of that study several times. If you see your mistake, come back here and apologize for wasting all our time. All this fuzz you made about distinguishing between low-calorie diets and actual real fasting (starvation), and going on about how there is no decline in MR if you fast (not low-calorie diet) for several weeks....and your source is this study??! Just freaking unbelievable.

 

[TubZy]

You are unbelievable, dude. Do me a favor: Read the title of that study several times. If you see your mistake, come back here and apologize for wasting all our time. All this fuzz you made about distinguishing between low-calorie diets and actual fasting (starvation) and going on about how there is no decline in MR if you fast (not low-calorie diet) for several weeks....and your source is this study??! Just freaking unbelievable.

What? This is another study I mentioned not the 12% increase MR since you decided to just ignore that. So what do you consider eating zero calories a day? You consider that "starvation" or no?

And don't worry enough people figured out who you really are and have been messaging me, given your join date (same time Gbol was banned) and that literally all your other posts are 99% negative about Gbol, it is obvious. Quite pathetic TBH.

 

[Kartoffel]

What? This is the another study I mentioned not the 12% increase MR since you decided to just ignore that. So what do you consider eating zero calories a day? You consider that "starvation" or no?

And don't worry enough people figured out who you really are, given your join date and that your other posts are 99% about Gbol, it is obvious. Quite pathetic TBH.

I don't know what you are implying, but since you are trying to get personal I can see that you realized how absurd your argument is...Zero calories?! This is from the study:

"DF participants were provided meals, but instructed to fast on alternate days. On fed days, ADF participants were provided a diet estimated to meet estimated energy requirements, which was supplemented with ad libitum access to 5-7 optional food modules (200 kcal each)"

This is your real fasting? These people fasted every other day and got plenty of calories on other days. How is eating 1400 kcal starvation/real fasting?

 

[TubZy]

I don't know what you are implying, but since you are trying to get personal I can see that you realized how absurd your argument is...Zero calories?! This is from the study:

"DF participants were provided meals, but instructed to fast on alternate days. On fed days, ADF participants were provided a diet estimated to meet estimated energy requirements, which was supplemented with ad libitum access to 5-7 optional food modules (200 kcal each)"

This is your real fasting? These people fasted every other day and got plenty of calories on other days. How is eating 1400 kcal starvation/real fasting?

I have been talking about IR/ADF since the beginning of this thread. Water fast is just a more intense version of that which I mentioned 100 hundred times, actually even the other posters besides you in the thread were addressing ALL types of fasting too, not sure what you are even talking about. I have been talking about IF/ADF this entire thread and the other one you are in, you even quoted me in my exact post about myself talking about how I do IF, god you are stupid. I even specifically said I don't eat low carb.....

From this specific thread in which you replied directly to this quote:

If I ate 3-6 meals a day spread across throughout the day and ate the same amount of calories in one sitting or a window, while either fasting the day before or IF, the outcome is much different on the body (I don't eat low carb at all).

LOL, anyone with a brain really knows who you are and suggest them to look at your post history. 99% of all your posts are against Gbol, you talk about hiding your IP address, you joined the same time Gbol was banned and you haven't created one single thread ever. I'm glad other people found out before me though, but I'm done replying now as I know what your agenda really is....

 

[Kartoffel]

I have been talking about IR/ADF since the beginning of this thread. Water fast is just a more intense version of that which I mentioned 100 hundred times, actually even the other posters besides you in the thread were addressing ALL types of fasting too, not sure what you are even talking about. I have been talking about IF/ADF this entire thread and the other one you are in, you even quoted me in my exact post about myself talking about how I do IF, god you are stupid. I even specifically said I don't eat low carb.....

From this specific thread in which you replied directly to this quote:


LOL, anyone with a brain really knows who you are and suggest them to look at your post history. 99% of all your posts of against Gbol, you talk about hiding you IP address, you joined the same time Gbol was banned and you haven't created a thread. I'm glad other people found out before me though, but I'm done replying now as I know what your agenda really is....

So, you lost the argument since your main piece of evidence was just destroyed and now you insult people like a 12 year old? You know very well what you were implying when you were talking about real fasting, and when you dismissed the graph from my study which was the only study in this thread that actually looked at real long-term fasting. I am glad that you think you know who I am, but I am really curious who these other people are. Are you talking about that Fisch guy that is also on your hackstasis forum and who insulted me via PM here when I questioned one of his theories that he sent me via PM? And when did I talk about hiding IP adresses? Are you suggesting that I am Gbol?
It seems that anger towards people, who bother you with evidence, is a common trait among members of your group. I don't really consider myself having an agenda, but if I have one then it's arguing against unscientific and dangerous charlatans. It's not my fault that the leader of your cult is one.
I am glad that this argument is over for you. There is really nothing more to say on the matter.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Define please

Hunger response=eat, the end. Don’t forecfully restrict food intake for a diet based on ideology

 

[DuggaDugga]

Fasting insulin sensitivity indices are not better than routine clinical variables at predicting insulin sensitivity among Black Africans: a clamp study in sub-Saharan Africans

All volunteers were examined on two consecutive days, each after 12-h overnight fast and controlled diet and activity for 7 days. Participants had a diet consisting of 50% carbohydrates, 30% lipids, and 20% proteins, and vigorous physical exercise was prohibited. On day 1, we performed anthropometric measurements and an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), and on day 2, we performed a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic clamp.

More research efforts are needed to identify in this setting to identify affordable fasting indicators which, singly or in combination may improve the accuracy of insulin sensitivity prediction.


LOL, a 12 hour overnight fast? Most people do that everyday, I think you mean just sleeping, of course there isn't going to be much difference. Even if you wanted attempt to tie that into IF, it is still not close. IF is at least 16-18 hours.



Effects of long-term fasting on insulin responses to fatty acids in man. - PubMed - NCBI

After the overnight fast, insulin levels increased during Intralipid infusion, at min 120 reaching an increment of 33.0 +/- 8.5 microU/ml vs. 9.5 +/- 4.4 microU/ml during saline; p<0.05 for difference. Conversely, after the 58 h fast. Intralipid failed to promote a successive increase of insulin levels (increment during Intralipid at min 120: 0.5 +/- 5.8 microU/ml vs. -4.3 +/- 2.5 microU/ml during saline, NS). Insulin sensitivity as assessed by the amount of infused glucose and its ratio to insulin was enhanced by Intralipid after an overnight fast, but was decreased after a 58 h fast.


They are using an IV with saline and intralipid....this study is a wash.


Effects of acute starvation on insulin resistance in obese patients with and without type 2 diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI

Read the full study, they mentioned the insulin sensitivity improved as well - see below.

Effect of Obesity and of Starvation on Insulin Activity

You keep posting on type 2 diabetic and obese patients. Even the author mentioned several times that insulin activity can significantly vary in subjects that obese or diabetic already. You are just taking tidbits out of the conclusion or summary and not even putting the entire study into perspective, I thought you knew how to read studies the right way, not just jump right to the summary page and make a conclusion on that.

Regarding FFA, of course it is going to up you literally using your body fast as fuel. On top of that, the liver is dumping PUFA. If you are obese FFA is already high in blood and they are already insulin resistant as is, as they fast they are going to temporarily release more FFA until they eventually get leaner. That is why water fasting becomes dangerous when you are already very lean with little body fat.

I never said reset or rebuild anything in my previous post, you must not be able to comprehend English. I posted studies so many times about fasting and the immune system, brain, stem cell etc. on this forum, tired of spoon feeding you, use the search function.

And again I posted two studies demonstrating one that increase metabolism and the other with no change in metabolic rate yet you have done nothing to debunk the studies I posted. Keep trying.

You do realize that free fatty acids in the blood inhibit glucose uptake (insulin resistance), right? It’s called the Randle cycle. How exactly does that fit into your understanding of fasting and low carb dieting? You also realize you don’t just “release FFA until you get leaner” like it’s your body deciding it’s going to finally burn that wonderful fat because those pesky cortisol- and glucagon-lowering carbs got in the way... but rather certain tissues oxidize fat as their primary energy source during rest and during moderate activity. These tissues include adipose, liver, skeletal muscle, and the heart, most notably (pubmed it, im on mobile). In other words, you’re already burning fat. If you want to burn it faster, increase muscle mass and consume foods that promote thyroid activation and insulin sensitivity. You don’t need to starve or restrict whole foods to lose weight. I’m sorry, but this is very basic physiology

 

[teds]

Never said carbs effects insulin only, that was in his particular case. He follows a strong Peat diet, low fat, moderators protein and high carbs. Lets be blunt here, the fat or protein is the very least problem in terms of insulin resistance. Show me one slab of evidence from someone getting diabetes or becoming obese from a ketogenic diet for example compared to a diet high in carbohydrates. Overeating carbs spike insulin the most thus increasing the chance for insulin resistance over protein or fat.

My insulin went up big time when I was on a high fat high protein low carb diet.. I know fully that this isn't a ketogenic diet but to say that fat and protein are the least of your worries around DM2 isn't quite right.. buggered me up big time.

 

[Titanium]

I have rheumatoid arthritis for 30 years. Fasting indeed seems to lower inflammation. The theory I have been told was that avoiding allergenic food is beneficial. I tried to eliminate dairy, cheese, potatoes, tomatoes, meat, wheat etc. but never was able to identify a single food as cause of my RA. Well there is one supplement that once caused a severe flair-up of my RA for weeks and that is colostrum. Apart from that I discovered that it is beneficial to avoid large amounts of sugar and starch. It not only gives large fluctuations in bloodsugar but also bacterial overgrowth in my intestines. I can confirm Peat's theory that this raises inflammation. Actually this year has been quite interesting as I discovered a lot more in relation to RA, Hypothyroidism and Ostopenia and it was after I was able to correlate the three that I stumbled upon Ray Peat's website and theories. From what I have learned I think that fasting is dangerous and starvation is real bad.

This year my knee was painful and swollen and I went - for the first time in seven years - back to the RA doctor. She was not pleased and had my blood examined including some X-rays. Inflammation markers and also PTH & TSH were high. Calcium and Magnesium normal and vitamins on the high side (I take a good multi). She warned me to take more calcium but I didn't understand it at that time. Until a few months later after I had a bad fall with my race-bicycle. I went to ER and they made an X-ray of my clavicle that turned out to be broken. My hip was also very painful but as had cycled back to home and managed to stand on the injured leg they didn't think it was possible it was broken. Four weeks later and lot of sleepless nights I was back in the ER and got another X-ray that proved my hip was broken as well. As it was already partly healed no surgery was performed. I had a Dexascan that proved I had Ostopenia and some additional X-rays to check the healing of my hip.

Finally I was able to make the correlation. PTH is high because my body wants to keep the Calcium level in my blood normal, because I eat to less Calcium PTH rises so Calcium is withdrawn from my bones. I added Calcium and Magnesium as I know you need to take these in 2:1 balance. I also realized that my Calcium intake was maybe marginal but never very low there had to be something else. I already took large doses of D3 & K2. Then I realized that half of the bone is protein. In all those years of fasting -near starvation- I took way to less protein. I think there has been a lot of days with less than 0.5 gram per KG body weight. Stupid me, I had to take more than twice the amount. Looking for the cause of high TSH I discovered that this is in fact Hypothyroidism and that high PUFA intake and low protein are the main contributors. When I realized this and found confirmation on Ray Peat's website I immediately raised my intake of protein (try to get 100 gram/daily) and dropped the intake of PUFA's. The results in three months time are amazing. It did not yet cure my RA, the damage in 30 years isn't cured in three months but this is what it has done sofar: 1. Deep heel cracks, I had for years, completely cured in just a few weeks. 2. Dry skin on my legs completely cured. 3. Snoring problem solved. Last years I started snoring. It is now 80% gone and still improving (checking with snorelab app). 4. High body temperature and no more cold. 5. Endurance and load capacity increased extremely. Last month I had another blood analysis that showed that all inflammation markers and PTH are now in the normal range. TSH wasn't checked.

 

[lollipop]

I have rheumatoid arthritis for 30 years. Fasting indeed seems to lower inflammation. The theory I have been told was that avoiding allergenic food is beneficial. I tried to eliminate dairy, cheese, potatoes, tomatoes, meat, wheat etc. but never was able to identify a single food as cause of my RA. Well there is one supplement that once caused a severe flair-up of my RA for weeks and that is colostrum. Apart from that I discovered that it is beneficial to avoid large amounts of sugar and starch. It not only gives large fluctuations in bloodsugar but also bacterial overgrowth in my intestines. I can confirm Peat's theory that this raises inflammation. Actually this year has been quite interesting as I discovered a lot more in relation to RA, Hypothyroidism and Ostopenia and it was after I was able to correlate the three that I stumbled upon Ray Peat's website and theories. From what I have learned I think that fasting is dangerous and starvation is real bad.

This year my knee was painful and swollen and I went - for the first time in seven years - back to the RA doctor. She was not pleased and had my blood examined including some X-rays. Inflammation markers and also PTH & TSH were high. Calcium and Magnesium normal and vitamins on the high side (I take a good multi). She warned me to take more calcium but I didn't understand it at that time. Until a few months later after I had a bad fall with my race-bicycle. I went to ER and they made an X-ray of my clavicle that turned out to be broken. My hip was also very painful but as had cycled back to home and managed to stand on the injured leg they didn't think it was possible it was broken. Four weeks later and lot of sleepless nights I was back in the ER and got another X-ray that proved my hip was broken as well. As it was already partly healed no surgery was performed. I had a Dexascan that proved I had Ostopenia and some additional X-rays to check the healing of my hip.

Finally I was able to make the correlation. PTH is high because my body wants to keep the Calcium level in my blood normal, because I eat to less Calcium PTH rises so Calcium is withdrawn from my bones. I added Calcium and Magnesium as I know you need to take these in 2:1 balance. I also realized that my Calcium intake was maybe marginal but never very low there had to be something else. I already took large doses of D3 & K2. Then I realized that half of the bone is protein. In all those years of fasting -near starvation- I took way to less protein. I think there has been a lot of days with less than 0.5 gram per KG body weight. Stupid me, I had to take more than twice the amount. Looking for the cause of high TSH I discovered that this is in fact Hypothyroidism and that high PUFA intake and low protein are the main contributors. When I realized this and found confirmation on Ray Peat's website I immediately raised my intake of protein (try to get 100 gram/daily) and dropped the intake of PUFA's. The results in three months time are amazing. It did not yet cure my RA, the damage in 30 years isn't cured in three months but this is what it has done sofar: 1. Deep heel cracks, I had for years, completely cured in just a few weeks. 2. Dry skin on my legs completely cured. 3. Snoring problem solved. Last years I started snoring. It is now 80% gone and still improving (checking with snorelab app). 4. High body temperature and no more cold. 5. Endurance and load capacity increased extremely. Last month I had another blood analysis that showed that all inflammation markers and PTH are now in the normal range. TSH wasn't checked.

This is an amazing report @Titanium. Thank you for sharing.

 

[rei]

The amount of writing dr. Peat has done on endotoxin should have ended this debate long ago. If you eat once every day or two it is clear that the endotoxin load will be fractions compared to if you feed the bacteria 3-6 times a day.

When you don't eat then your body feeds the bacteria, and it tends to feed/favor the good ones.

I don't think anyone is promoting prolonged fasting as a lifestyle, it is more like an intervention. But IF/alternate daily fasting is probably the most healthy lifestyle, according to the studies i have seen.

 

[Syncopated]

I take Tyronene when I fast.

 

[papaya]

essentially

Thyroid hormone works in concert with the sympathetic nervous system to generate a driving force or "pressor" action upon metabolism. It does this primarily through altering the way the body handles calcium. So in a situation where there is a reduction of food, there will usually also be a drop in calcium. The sympathetic nervous system actually tends to increase activity during fasting, generally explained by an increase in catecholamine levels and increase in "receptor sensitivity." I like to think that the body is encouraging you to find and eat food.

But this increased pressing action from fasting requires a constant flux of ionized calcium, roughly speaking, to maintain the proper electrical gradients driving the continued rhythm of the cell. So here thyroid hormone levels must drop, or there could be a situation where the electrical reductive state of the cell is so great that it could not maintain life. Of course there are also factors like estrogen, cortisol, etc., helping to maintain this balance. Parathyroid is critical in this regard, as it generally encourages calcium liberation from bones and works to maintain serum ionization levels without the action of thyroid hormone, in concert with prostaglandins and estrogen.

-Parathyroid hormone and ionized calcium levels are related to the severity of illness and survival in critically ill patients.
Hypocalcaemia and increased levels of PTH were common findings in critically ill patients. These alterations in calcium homeostasis were related to the severity of disease and increased PTH levels were associated with a poor outcome.
​

So in this study, they looked at the levels of parathyroid and ionized calcium levels in people who rated to be very sick based on a metric used in intensive care settings called APACHE II. They found a very strong correlation between both of these markers and severity of illness. Parathyroid hormone increases in an attempt to maintain serum calcium levels, and if they can't be maintained - you die.


Starvation induces parathyroid hormone, as does nearly any other stress.

-The effects of fasting and refeeding on serum parathormone and calcitonin concentrations in young and old male rats.

-Effect of fasting and parathyroid hormone injection on plasma 45Ca concentrations in rats.
These data are consistent with the concept of a bone fluid compartment (BFC) separated by a cellular interface from the primary extracellular fluid space (ecf). It is postulated that through this cellular interface calcium is actively "pumped" from the BFC to the ECF. The rise in plasma 45Ca values at the start of fasting is explained on the basis of decreased entry of stable calcium from the gastrointestinal tract and a continued movement of calcium and 45Ca from the BFC to the ECF.



​

The second study talks about some interesting things, specifically the idea of a compartment of fluid around bone that almost acts as a membrane, selectively permitting or restricting the movement of some ionic compounds. Pretty cool to think about a "membrane" existing around these bones, controlling the flow of bone juice, kind of like the "membrane" around cells, controlling the flow of cell juice. So looking at the actions of estrogen, parathyroid hormone, calcitonin, etc., we can get an idea of how these compounds control the permeability of these "membranes."

-Bone Lining Cells and the Bone Fluid Compartment, an Ultrastructural Study



do you think it would be a good idea to not take thyroid hormones on days that you fast?


​

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've been playing with IF again. I've found that I don't need to take charcoal or anything else to have a very low-inflammation bowel. I'm still not fully adjusted to IFing, and intend to eat ad libitum on weekends. I am hoping to shed a few more pounds, and not be hungry all the time.

Thanks for the studies and the debate. I don't think anything about this is very clear so I can't complain when someone interprets a study one way and a different person interprets it another way.

For now, I'll try this and see how it goes.