Fasting Inhibits Proper Thyroid Function

[TubZy]

Yes, it does.

what does this say? Not sure how you can't comprehend a simply study.

 

[michael94]

Yes there is countless healthy strong people that never fast.

At least you can say fasting is not essential for good health.but Maybe is some conditions it has therapeutic properties.

jap

 

[Kartoffel]

i

what does this say? Not sure how you can't comprehend a simply study.

Studies are useless, they don't mean anything. You don't even seem to understand basic biochemistry, so you can't interpret studies. Go read a good endocrinology textbook, maybe then you will understand what fasting does to the body.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Yes i agree, maybe that is one of reasons why some smaller athletes have better performance,even in weight lifting.

no, that would be due to square-cube law

 

[TubZy]

i


Studies are useless, they don't mean anything. You don't even seem to understand basic biochemistry, so you can't interpret studies. Go read a good endocrinology textbook, maybe then you will understand what fasting does to the body.

Oh really? So why are you posting them then?

Explain me to what I said about that study is wrong tough guy?

Before you start looking for evidence where he is wrong I would go looking for evidence where he is right. Almost everything he says can't be disproved because it's based on "knowledge" from anesthesiology textbooks (he never says which ones) and his own observations. In short, it's made up. For example, he constantly says that people with PFS have high progesterone. Apparently that's based on his observations/ work with clients. I think in reality it's based on a few hormone tests he read on the internet, because real studies show that PFS guys have low levels of progesterone and it's protective metabolites.

Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients. - PubMed - NCBI
Patients treated for male pattern hair with finasteride show, after discontinuation of the drug, altered levels of neuroactive steroids in cerebros... - PubMed - NCBI

It's virtually impossible to criticize any of his points because a) they change all the time b) he doesn't have any evidence/references for them c) he rejects any evidence that you may cite because c1) studies are rubbish and c2) only he can understand studies because he has a matrix.

I can understand how his style appeals to the ignorant and desperate, and there is the occasional truth hidden in his gibberish, but at the end of the day you should ask yourself whether you really want to believe a guy that refuses any objective evidence and claims that he cured his cancer and voluntarily took finasteride just to cure PFS within a few days, and who had several fake accounts here to praise and support himself.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Never said carbs effects insulin only, that was in his particular case. He follows a strong Peat diet, low fat, moderators protein and high carbs. Lets be blunt here, the fat or protein is the very least problem in terms of insulin resistance. Show me one slab of evidence from someone getting diabetes or becoming obese from a ketogenic diet for example compared to a diet high in carbohydrates. Overeating carbs spike insulin the most thus increasing the chance for insulin resistance over protein or fat.

They're actually more relevant than carbonhydrates to insulin resistance.
Protein stimulates insulin *and* glucagon secretion which, in the absence of carbohydrates, leads to insulin resistance. If it didn't the insulin would cause hypoglycemia.
Effect of dietary protein level on the first steps of glucagon action in rat liver plasma membranes. - PubMed - NCBI
Fatty acids in the blood directly causes insulin resistance through the Randle cycle.
Randle cycle - Wikipedia

"Excess" carbs do not cause insulin resistance. Lack of carbs causes insulin resistance. Over-eating causes insulin resistance. "Excess" carbs do not cause insulin resistance. I provide a "slab of evidence". Now you please provide a mechanism how carbs directly cause insulin resistance.

 

[Kartoffel]

Oh really? So why are you posting them then?

Explain me to what I said about that study is wrong tough guy?

I can post studies because I have a matrix and can therefore understand them. I took the same class in advanced mathematics as gbol.

Just read this book. You will find dozens of studies showing that starvation (not kcal restriction) seriously decreases metabolic rate. The reason you think that starvation increases MR is the short-term energy burst that healthy people get for a few days because of all the adrenaline that is released. Long-term fasting will do the opposite.

Body Composition Techniques in Health and Disease

 

[DuggaDugga]

I can post studies because I have a matrix and can therefore understand them. I took the same class in advanced mathematics as gbol.

Just read this book. You will find dozens of studies showing that starvation (not kcal restriction) seriously decreases metabolic rate.

Body Composition Techniques in Health and Disease

Indeed. Or just go to pubmed and search "fasting T3" "low carb diet T3".
Metabolic differences in response to a high-fat vs. a high-carbohydrate diet. - PubMed - NCBI
The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric diet on resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones. - PubMed - NCBI
I would love a keto or fasting advocate to explain why lowered T3 levels would be ideal.

 

[Kartoffel]

Indeed. Or just go to pubmed and search "fasting T3" "low carb diet T3".
Metabolic differences in response to a high-fat vs. a high-carbohydrate diet. - PubMed - NCBI
The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric diet on resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones. - PubMed - NCBI
I would love a keto or fasting advocate to explain why lowered T3 levels would be ideal.

Well tubzy said that total starvation (fasting) was different from low-calorie diets and low-carb diets, so these studies are not really relevant. That's why I gave him plenty of evidence showing that starvation does the same as low-calorie diets. He insisted that starvation was different than calorie restriction, and argued that starvation will actually increase your MR. I know, it's ridiculous but that's the kind of thinking that results from listening to gbol too much.

 

[Jsaute21]

Indeed. Or just go to pubmed and search "fasting T3" "low carb diet T3".
Metabolic differences in response to a high-fat vs. a high-carbohydrate diet. - PubMed - NCBI
The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric diet on resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones. - PubMed - NCBI
I would love a keto or fasting advocate to explain why lowered T3 levels would be ideal.

Good stuff. The constant need to disprove Peat on here is starting to become painful.

 

[TubZy]

I can post studies because I have a matrix and can therefore understand them. I took the same class in advanced mathematics as gbol.

Just read this book. You will find dozens of studies showing that starvation (not kcal restriction) seriously decreases metabolic rate. The reason you think that starvation increases MR is the short-term energy burst that healthy people get for a few days because of all the adrenaline that is released. Long-term fasting will do the opposite.

Body Composition Techniques in Health and Disease

Wrong, I posted a twenty two day alternate day fast study that shows metabolic rate did not drop.

Right, so you understand the matrix behind the studies you post. So I'll ask you again, from the other thread you posted a study on PFS trying to prove Gbol wrong. What is the matrix or mechanism behind the study you posted then? Please enlighten us, I would love to hear this.

Here is your post.

Before you start looking for evidence where he is wrong I would go looking for evidence where he is right. Almost everything he says can't be disproved because it's based on "knowledge" from anesthesiology textbooks (he never says which ones) and his own observations. In short, it's made up. For example, he constantly says that people with PFS have high progesterone. Apparently that's based on his observations/ work with clients. I think in reality it's based on a few hormone tests he read on the internet, because real studies show that PFS guys have low levels of progesterone and it's protective metabolites.

Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients. - PubMed - NCBI
Patients treated for male pattern hair with finasteride show, after discontinuation of the drug, altered levels of neuroactive steroids in cerebros... - PubMed - NCBI

It's virtually impossible to criticize any of his points because a) they change all the time b) he doesn't have any evidence/references for them c) he rejects any evidence that you may cite because c1) studies are rubbish and c2) only he can understand studies because he has a matrix.

I can understand how his style appeals to the ignorant and desperate, and there is the occasional truth hidden in his gibberish, but at the end of the day you should ask yourself whether you really want to believe a guy that refuses any objective evidence and claims that he cured his cancer and voluntarily took finasteride just to cure PFS within a few days, and who had several fake accounts here to praise and support himself.

 

[Kartoffel]

I can post studies because I have a matrix and can therefore understand them. I took the same class in advanced mathematics as gbol.

Just read this book. You will find dozens of studies showing that starvation (not kcal restriction) seriously decreases metabolic rate. The reason you think that starvation increases MR is because of the short-term energy burst that healthy people get for a few days because of all the adrenaline that is released. Long-term fasting will do the opposite.

Body Composition Techniques in Health and Disease

Wrong I posted a twenty two day alternate day fast study that shows metabolic did not drop.

Right, so you understand the matrix behind the studies you post. So I'll ask you again, from the other thread you posted a study on PFS trying to prove Gbol wrong. What is the matrix or mechanism behind the study you posted then? Please enlighten us, I would love to hear this.

I posted a book with dozens of studies showing the opposite. You will find many more on pubmed. You posted one study, I'll start looking into it if you can show studies replicating the results. Until then I'll leave it up to the reader to decide who has more support for his statement. You're kind of resistant to sarcasm, aren't you? I don't have a matrix. I'm ridiculing your messiah.

 

[TubZy]

This is hilarious one guy is saying studies don't matter while the other guy is posting nothing but studies LOL. I will address them later

 

[TubZy]

I posted a book with dozens of studies showing the opposite. You will find many more on pubmed. You posted one study, I'll start looking into it if you can show studies replicating the results. Until then I'll leave it up to the reader to decide who has more support for his statement. You're kind of resistant to sarcasm, aren't you? I don't have a matrix. I'm ridiculing your messiah.

Read a book? That is your excuse, are you sure you aren't secretly Gbol? Everyone complained that wasn't a valid argument. You just said studies don't matter unless you the know the mechanism behind them yet you posted a PFS study and can't define the mechanism behind it LOL.


It's hilarious because you are exactly in line how Gbol thinks but you try to criticism him. He says studies don't matter unless you know the mechanism behind it.

 

[Kartoffel]

Read a book? That is your excuse, are you sure you aren't secretly Gbol? Everyone complained that wasn't a valid argument.

It's hilarious because you are exactly in line how Gbol thinks but you try to criticism him.

And of course, you couldn't define the PFS study because you don't know the mechanism behind it, which just goes to show you post studies that you have no idea what really goes on.

I wasn't telling you to read the book for the sake of reading the book but for the studies that are in there. I posted one graph from one 30-day starvation study showin a sharp decline of MR as an example. I am not copying all the other references from that book because you won't care anyways since you have found one study that supports your point of view. That's enough for you, I know. If you want to believe that fasting will increase your MR in the long-term, that you can defy the laws of thermodynamics, be my guest. Everyone with half a brain will agree with me on that point simply because of common sense, and if that is not enough you won't need longer than five minutes to find dozens of studies on pubmed that will stand against your one reference.
I don't even know what PFS study you are talking about or what you mean by defining a study. Maybe my English is not good enough and I have a different understanding of the verb define.

And again: When I said that studies don't matter, I was ridiculing your idol and your way of arguing. Since gbol ended all critical discussions with this argument I thought you would recognize it and get the joke.

 

[TubZy]

I wasn't telling you to read the book for the sake of reading the book but for the studies that are in there. I posted one graph from one 30-day starvation study showin a sharp decline of MR as an example. I am not copying all the other references from that book because you won't care anyways since you have found one study that supports your point of view. That's enough for you, I know. If you want to believe that fasting will increase your MR in the long-term, that you can defy the laws of thermodynamics, be my guest. Everyone with half a brain will agree with me on that point simply because of common sense, and if that is not enough you won't need longer than five minutes to find dozens of studies on pubmed that will stand against your one reference.
I don't even know what PFS study you are talking about or what you mean by defining a study. Maybe my English is not good enough and I have different understanding of the verb define.

And again: When I said that studies don't matter, I was ridiculing your idol and your way of arguing. Since gbol ended all critical discussions with this argument I thought you would recognize it and get the joke.

Yeah I got the joke I was laughing didn't you see my LOL's?

I don't know what other way to word it, why are prog metabolites low like you said in the study you posted and why is Gbol wrong? Is that simple enough for you to understand..did you pass English?

The amount of studies are not relevant just because there are more or less pubmed studies means absolutely nothing. I posted two studies btw not one, learn how to count. Post the full and entire study here from the book and I'll read through it. It is just listed at the bottom of the book in the reference section I want to see the entire study.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Well tubzy said that total starvation (fasting) was different from low-calorie diets and low-carb diets, so these studies are not really relevant. That's why I gave him plenty of evidence showing that starvation does the same as low-calorie diets. He insisted that starvation was different than calorie restriction, and argued that starvation will actually increase your MR. I know, it's ridiculous but that's the kind of thinking that results from listening to gbol too much.

I guess it's a matter of semantics, but "forced" fasting as an aspect of diet, for religious reasons, or due to true unavailability of food are more-or-less communicating the same thing to your body: stress. The intelligent response of the body is to down-regulate general metabolism (as evident by decreased conversion of thyroxine to T3), with especial down-regulation of reproduction and immune functions, and to stimulate cortisol-mediated gluconeogenesis to maintain blood glucose (preferred energy substrate of the brain). Cortisol is directly linked to insulin resistance, which anyone can pubmed for themselves. So, if your goal is high metabolism and insulin sensitivity, forced fasting and carb avoidance (prompting gluconeogenesis) is diametrically opposed to your goals.
Mechanisms of Glucocorticoid-Induced Insulin Resistance: Focus on Adipose Tissue Function and Lipid Metabolism
Cortisol increases gluconeogenesis in humans: its role in the metabolic syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI
Contributions of gluconeogenesis to glucose production in the fasted state.
Mechanisms of liver and muscle insulin resistance induced by chronic high-fat feeding. - PubMed - NCBI

I doubt there's anyway to convince someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of insulin secretion and sensitivity that they should also be considerate of cortisol, glucagon, growth hormone, etc, etc, etc. Not worth the effort. Once the ad hominems come out, someone has made it clear they have no intention on debating at a logical level.

 

[TubZy]

I guess it's a matter of semantics, but "forced" fasting as an aspect of diet, for religious reasons, or due to true unavailability of food are more-or-less communicating the same thing to your body: stress. The intelligent response of the body is to down-regulate general metabolism (as evident by decreased conversion of thyroxine to T3), with especial down-regulation of reproduction, digestive, and immune functions, and to stimulate cortisol-mediated gluconeogenesis to maintain blood glucose (preferred energy substrate of the brain). Cortisol is directly linked to insulin resistance, which anyone can pubmed for themselves. So, if your goal is high metabolism and insulin sensitivity, forced fasting and carb avoidance (prompting gluconeogenesis) is diametrically opposed to your goals.
Mechanisms of Glucocorticoid-Induced Insulin Resistance: Focus on Adipose Tissue Function and Lipid Metabolism

I doubt there's anyway to convince someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of insulin secretion and sensitivity that they should also be considerate of cortisol, glucagon, growth hormone, etc, etc, etc. Not worth the effort. Once the ad hominems come out, someone has made it clear they have no intention on debating at a logical level.

I think you are missing the point the broader point. I've discussed this in length in another thread, but many of the negative symptoms of high cortisol aren't present during fasting. You mentioned immune system, well fasting regenerates the immune system. You mentioned digestive issues, well fasting can restore digestion function. Fasting can trigger gene expressions related to stem cell regeneration. Fasting can break up fibrosis and makes your skin smooth, increases insulin sensitivity etc. See where I'm going with this? You keep saying increase in cortisol = bad or stressful but yet fasting seems to have benefits opposing the typical negative symptoms of high cortisol. You are painting it with such a broad brush by just saying... well T3 levels went down and cortisol went up so that automatically means it's bad without understanding why the body is doing it.

 

[Diokine]

There is evidence that "fasting" promotes immunity through stimulating the thymus, through several mechanisms but generally mediated through ghrelin and growth hormone.

There is evidence that "fasting" significantly reduces insulin resistance, depending on the metabolic landscape.

I can also provide evidence that "fasting" significantly increases BDNF, which is awesome.


Also, gluconeogenesis induced by cortisol during the initial phases of "fasting" does not generally effect muscle.

 

[Kartoffel]

I wasn't telling you to read the book for the sake of reading the book but for the studies that are in there. I posted one graph from one 30-day starvation study showin a sharp decline of MR as an example. I am not copying all the other references from that book because you won't care anyways since you have found one study that supports your point of view. That's enough for you, I know. If you want to believe that fasting will increase your MR in the long-term, that you can defy the laws of thermodynamics, be my guest. Everyone with half a brain will agree with me on that point simply because of common sense, and if that is not enough you won't need longer than five minutes to find dozens of studies on pubmed that will stand against your one reference.
I don't even know what PFS study you are talking about or what you mean by defining a study. Maybe my English is not good enough and I have different understanding of the verb define.

I think you are missing the point the broader point. I've discussed this in length in another thread, but many of the negative symptoms of high cortisol aren't present during fasting. You mentioned immune system, well fasting regenerates the immune system. You mentioned digestive issues, well fasting can restore digestion function. Fasting can trigger gene expressions related to stem cell regeneration. Fasting can break up fibrosis and makes your skin smooth, increases insulin sensitivity etc. See where I'm going with this? You keep saying increase in cortisol = bad or stressful but yet fasting seems to have benefits opposing the typical negative symptoms of high cortisol. You are painting it with such a broad brush by just saying... well T3 levels went down and cortisol went up so that automatically means it's bad without understanding why the body is doing it.

All these claims are more wishful thinking than reality. Yes, fasting can in some cases be beneficial, but fasting in itself is not. It's more an absence of bad dietary factors. Fasting itself harms the reproductive system, causes you to lose lots of lean tissue, is more likely to decrease your insulin sensitivity due to the influence of increased NEFA on beta cells, and can harm several generations (ask the Dutch). The story of fasting as a practice to "reset" and "rebuild" the body is a fairytale just as your claim that it doesn't lower the metabolic rate.

See for example this study after 9 days of starvation.
"Thepercentage rise in free fatty acid after the fast tended to correspond with that in atypical insulin-like activity. Evidently fasting lessens the demand for insulin, despite its causing insulin resistance, possibly from fat mobilization" (Samaan et al. 1965)

Fasting insulin sensitivity indices are not better than routine clinical variables at predicting insulin sensitivity among Black Africans: a clamp study in sub-Saharan Africans
Effects of long-term fasting on insulin responses to fatty acids in man. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of acute starvation on insulin resistance in obese patients with and without type 2 diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of Obesity and of Starvation on Insulin Activity