Everything You Know About De Novo Lipogenesis

[Ron J]

I have several questions about de novo lipogenesis:
I'm wondering how much of 100g of excess carbs would turn into fat.
Does lipogenesis demand micronutrients from the carbs? If so, is the outcome a net loss, no loss, or does it leave some(assuming a nutrient dense carb source)?

 

[Hans]

I have several questions about de novo lipogenesis:
I'm wondering how much of 100g of excess carbs would turn into fat.
Does lipogenesis demand micronutrients from the carbs? If so, is the outcome a net loss, no loss, or does it leave some(assuming a nutrient dense carb source)?

Lipogenesis depends on a bunch of things. 100g of glucose would probably create almost no fat through lipogenesis. If you eat in a deficit, no fat will be created. If you eat in a surplus, more will be created.
About 5% of glucose and fructose is converted to fat through lipogenesis on average

Prolactin and serotonin boosts lipogenesis and promotes fat storage so will make you fat fast.

However, normal lipogenesis is not an issue because it creates so little fat and it also promotes thermogenesis.

 

[Ron J]

Yeah, I mean 100g assuming that you are consuming 500g on top of that, so 600g total, and a caloric surplus.
So an extra 100g of carbs would turn to 5g of fat(on average)?

 

[Hans]

Yeah, I mean 100g assuming that you are consuming 500g on top of that, so 600g total, and a caloric surplus.
So an extra 100g of carbs would turn to 5g of fat(on average)?

It depends on how big the surplus is and if your metabolism is going to pick up and burn the extra calories. A few studies show that huge doses of sugar, 500g, created only like 10g of fat. But that was acutely. Long term might be a different story.

 

[Ron J]

I see. Thanks.
If the body senses that not enough fat from food sources is being consumed, is it possible that lipogenesis may require less than the alleged 500g? Could it be that people consuming 500g or less of carbs(low/no fat) are likely converting 5% on average of their total carbs? So if I plan to consume 800g of carbs, and 50g of fat, it would be as if I'm consuming 90g(5% of 800 + 50g) of fat instead of 65g(5% of 300g + 50g).

 

[Cirion]

My questions on lipogenesis:

A study was done on carbohydrate overfeeding and showed that after 500 gram carbs were intaken, lipogenesis began to occur. I need to dig more into the study as some of the questions may be answered already, but these questions are in my head:

1.) Does DNL occur before 500 gram carbs if you eat a high(er) fat diet? Maybe even later? Basically, when does DNL occur on 0% fat diet? 10% fat diet? 20% fat diet? ... etc...
2.) Does the 500 gram carb mark shift up or down if you eat more or less fructose? I.e., is pure glucose less likely to be converted to fat?
3.) How does physical activity shift the DNL point higher or lower, or does it?

 

[Hans]

I see. Thanks.
If the body senses that not enough fat from food sources is being consumed, is it possible that lipogenesis may require less than the alleged 500g? Could it be that people consuming 500g or less of carbs(low/no fat) are likely converting 5% on average of their total carbs? So if I plan to consume 800g of carbs, and 50g of fat, it would be as if I'm consuming 90g(5% of 800 + 50g) of fat instead of 65g(5% of 300g + 50g).

All these percentages are all good and well in theory and in the short term, but in the long term the body changes and adapts. You can boost your metabolism and energy expenditure and then that % will shift. It doesn't really matter what the percentage is if you're burning the fat and none gets stored. You can start at a certain amount of carbs, track your weight, and then slowly bump it up. Allow your metabolism to adapt and then find the right amount of carbs (while keeping the other macros the same) you can eat without gaining a bunch of weight in the process.

My questions on lipogenesis:

A study was done on carbohydrate overfeeding and showed that after 500 gram carbs were intaken, lipogenesis began to occur. I need to dig more into the study as some of the questions may be answered already, but these questions are in my head:

1.) Does DNL occur before 500 gram carbs if you eat a high(er) fat diet? Maybe even later? Basically, when does DNL occur on 0% fat diet? 10% fat diet? 20% fat diet? ... etc...
2.) Does the 500 gram carb mark shift up or down if you eat more or less fructose? I.e., is pure glucose less likely to be converted to fat?
3.) How does physical activity shift the DNL point higher or lower, or does it?

Lipogenesis increases as the surplus increases. A low fat diet increases lipogenesis whereas a high fat diet can lower it, giving that calories are equal and only carbs and fats are manipulated. So let's say that someone is maintaining their weight on 3000 calories and they're lean. If they eat a 0% fat diet, lipogenesis will be 15% theoretically. But this doesn't matter because it's good fats and their body will just use it.
Let's say they bump up their calories to 4000 while still eating a 0% fat diet. Lipogenesis might increase to 25% and the weight starts adding on. Eating more fat to lower lipogenesis, but it will not stop the weight gain because there is still a surplus.
Fructose is theoretically more prone to being converted to fats yes. Acutely, fructose doesn't create more fat than glucose, but chronically it can. This also depends if there is a surplus or not.
Physical activity could affect lipogenesis by utilizing the carbs as energy, so less have to be stored. So increasing energy expenditure could lower lipogenesis yes, but one has to do a lot of exericse to burn a little calories. Being more active (unplanned) can burn a lot more calories.

 

[Ron J]

I may have made a mistake in my previous post since 1g of fat is about 9 calories and 1g of carbs is about 4.
I'd still prefer fat from lipogenesis as long as there isn't a decrease in androgens and the conversion doesn't leave you in a net loss of micronutrients.
I had previously asked how much fat is required daily as maintenance(I'll look it up later), so the upper limit might be that plus the amount your muscles can burn; every extra gram will be stored as adipose tissue(I think).

@Cirion If you find conclusive data about androgens on a low/no fat diet, let us know. The one you posted I think may have been too low calories, so I'm not sure if it's applicable. The maximum consumption was just like 3,200 calories and it was likely to be the ones consuming fats. If I'm mistaken, I'd like to know.

 

[Cirion]

I may have made a mistake in my previous post since 1g of fat is about 9 calories and 1g of carbs is about 4.
I'd still prefer fat from lipogenesis as long as there isn't a decrease in androgens and the conversion doesn't leave you in a net loss of micronutrients.
I had previously asked how much fat is required daily as maintenance(I'll look it up later), so the upper limit might be that plus the amount your muscles can burn; every extra gram will be stored as adipose tissue(I think).

@Cirion If you find conclusive data about androgens on a low/no fat diet, let us know. The one you posted I think may have been too low calories, so I'm not sure if it's applicable. The maximum consumption was just like 3,200 calories and it was likely to be the ones consuming fats. If I'm mistaken, I'd like to know.

I get the academic interest for sure. But I'll say that even with very high carbs and low/zero fat I didn't feel very androgenic. Maybe I'm just too fat and being androgenic is impossible due to my excess estrogen, lol.

That study was actually very high calorie (upwards of 5000 calories I believe?) and at the peak 1,000 gram of carbs were intaken but at the end of the experiment almost 50% of the carbs went through De Novo Lipogenesis. The 3,200 calories number probably comes to your mind as that's the number of calories actually burned (which was also measured).

 

[berk]

Lipogenesis increases as the surplus increases. A low fat diet increases lipogenesis whereas a high fat diet can lower it, giving that calories are equal and only carbs and fats are manipulated. So let's say that someone is maintaining their weight on 3000 calories and they're lean. If they eat a 0% fat diet, lipogenesis will be 15% theoretically. But this doesn't matter because it's good fats and their body will just use it.
Let's say they bump up their calories to 4000 while still eating a 0% fat diet. Lipogenesis might increase to 25% and the weight starts adding on. Eating more fat to lower lipogenesis, but it will not stop the weight gain because there is still a surplus.
Fructose is theoretically more prone to being converted to fats yes. Acutely, fructose doesn't create more fat than glucose, but chronically it can. This also depends if there is a surplus or not.
Physical activity could affect lipogenesis by utilizing the carbs as energy, so less have to be stored. So increasing energy expenditure could lower lipogenesis yes, but one has to do a lot of exericse to burn a little calories. Being more active (unplanned) can burn a lot more calories.

The weight gain wont stop and stays exactly the same? or increase/reduce it?

another question:
i read somewhere here that starches produce a different type of saturated fat than sugars.
Is this true? and whats diffrence then?
Also someone told that DNL doesn't begin until roughly 500g of carb intake, thats also true?

 

[Hans]

The weight gain wont stop and stays exactly the same? or increase/reduce it?

another question:
i read somewhere here that starches produce a different type of saturated fat than sugars.
Is this true? and whats diffrence then?
Also someone told that DNL doesn't begin until roughly 500g of carb intake, thats also true?

If you eat 4000 calories from 100% carbs, or 90% carbs and 10% fat or 80% and 20% fat and so on, the weight gain will be the same regardless of lipogenesis. But in someone that's insulin resistant or something like that, lipogenesis is upregulated to a great extent and this can create more fat and lead to more fat gain.

Sugar and starch produce the same fats, mostly palmitic and then a little stearic acid and a few others.
Yes, lipogenesis only gets activated to a greater extent after about 500g of carbs. That was a short term study though and the long term effect might be different.