Theory: Sugar Is A Metabolic 'activator', Works Well If Body Has Enough Nutrients

[Cirion]

it all boils down to stress imo... In a hypo state any and all stressors should be avoided. This includes some that may not be so obvious such as watching TV and playing video games. This last part has been the hardest for me. I get bored easily especially on weekends and find myself gravitating towards TV instead of going outside and getting sun.

To solidify this point, I fell off the wagon last weekend and played a highly stressful video game all sunday. woke up with the lowest temperature I have had since I started Peating 6 months ago - 97.6F.

I think I am now done with video games. At least for now.

 

[lampofred]

it all boils down to stress imo... In a hypo state any and all stressors should be avoided. This includes some that may not be so obvious such as watching TV and playing video games. This last part has been the hardest for me. I get bored easily especially on weekends and find myself gravitating towards TV instead of going outside and getting sun.

To solidify this point, I fell off the wagon last weekend and played a highly stressful video game all sunday. woke up with the lowest temperature I have had since I started Peating 6 months ago - 97.6F.

I think I am now done with video games. At least for now.

It could also be that your temps are sustained by cortisol instead of thyroid and the dopamine from the video game lowered cortisol enough to reveal the underlying hypothyroid condition.

After finding Peat, I don't know if our instincts make us gravitate towards things that are bad for us in a sense of being biologically stressful.

 

[Cirion]

It could also be that your temps are sustained by cortisol instead of thyroid and the dopamine from the video game lowered cortisol enough to reveal the underlying hypothyroid condition.

After finding Peat, I don't know if our instincts make us gravitate towards things that are bad for us in a sense of being biologically stressful.

I doubt it. I was getting mad and shouting at the game. classic serotonin symptoms lol.

Also when I was at my healthiest, I rarely played TV/video games. I definitely notice a pattern (for me at least) between TV usage and health.

Keep in mind that I would hardly call myself cured despite being on Peat for many months now. Otherwise I'd agree - when healthy you tend to seek healthy habits. That was most definitely the case. In fact, I actively avoided TV/video games when healthy - another reason I think the way I do. My brother would be like - hey let's play games, and I'd be like naw... I wanna go outside and play sand tennis lol

 

[Cirion]

To be sure some video games/TV shows are probably less detrimental than others.

First person shooters are examples of cortisol inducing games. Also playing any game and pumping up difficulty to the max (I am guilty of both infractions lol).

For myself, I find the safest TV shows to be anime, since usually those consist of upwards of 50% or more of scenes being funny/comical which are conducive to lowering stress. Some animes I have watched though were kind of cortisol inducing so even those aren't 100% safe.

 

[Kelj]

Whenever there are two diametrically opposed ideas, and anecdotes on both sides, I find it interesting to try and come up with an underlying theory that unifies the seeming contradictions.

And a big one is SUGAR!

For a lot of people, sugar makes them fat, creates mental fog, and obviously is a popular mainstream punching bag. But it's not just some conspiracy or uninformed collective amnesia, I've seen sugar (and higher carbs) work terribly for people. And probably so have you.

For some people (though it seems markedly less), sugar (and higher carb) is the missing piece of the puzzle. Temperatures go up, mood improves, and even weight loss happens.

So what's with the big discrepancy?

I believe it has to do with nutritional state. Here's my current rough model of the human body: we store micronutrients - minerals and vitamins, some for longer than others, while others need constant replenishment - and then different types of macronutrients are activated differently depending on micronutrient status (as well as genetic variations).

Since sugar is so easily digested and turned into energy, I view it kind of like applying a gas pedal to the body. Energy is created, and uses up micronutrients. If we have sufficient micronutrients, then with the energy we can make the right hormones and things. If not, perhaps our bodies have mechanisms for 'not using' the sugar and they get stored into fat, and other poor responses.

With this model, it makes sense how a lot of people could respond poorly to sugar, given our hypothesis that (Western/modern) societies are nutrient depleted. We have poor soils, the animals are fed garbage, pesticides and GMOs aren't helping, etc.

What do you guys think of this theory?

As a testing point for anyone who responds badly to sugar, maybe you could see if taking a few multivitamins along with any sugar helps out. I know not all multis are that great, so just as a short-term experiment it could be a good shotgun approach to testing this theory. Alternatively, see if Orange Juice (very nutritionally dense) does you better than just sugar water. I'm starting to really think micronutrients are a massive component of health and that the body has many mechanisms for adapting to their lack or excess.

I have experience on both sides of this argument. I had symptoms from sugar consumption and was convinced I shouldn't eat it. I didn't eat any for years. My health did not improve long term, though. I read Ray Peat and began to understand the vital role of a high carb diet and the necessity of sugar in any form. What Dr. Peat alludes to, but doesn't reason on so much, is the necessity of an abundance of calories in the diet. When we eat WELL ABOVE our body's minimum calorie requirement which is never below 3000 calories for any person ( and I said well above), a person eats enough micronutrients. When a person eats an abundance of calories every day of their life, their body never stores excess fat, because the body ONLY stores excess fat when a person has been undereating. The inconsistent eater will store calories eaten in excess of a the needs of their suppressed metabolism. Eating an abundance (everything you want) every day will prevent fat storage forever. Eating a high carbohydrate diet will prevent the emergency metabolism of burning fat for energy which causes high blood sugars. One has enough energy to heal everything that needs it every night without bothering you. I am happy I discovered this to near me to return to perfect health after decades of trouble eating low carb/low calorie. Everything is healed. Really!

 

[cdg]

Eating a high carbohydrate diet will prevent the emergency metabolism of burning fat for energy which causes high blood sugars.

Then what happens to excess fat that you already have? Thanks

 

[Cirion]

I think it's still easy to be deficient in micronutrients despite high calorie, but overall I agree with you.

My opinion of what causes weight gain now is not so much calories but a nutrient emergency in the body. Fitness culture thinks CICO governs everything but I take it to the next level and say MICO... "Micros in Calories Out". Without sufficient nutrients, or the wrong ones, you can gain weight even with < 1000 calories and not gain weight even with > 4000 calories.

 

[YourUniverse]

CICO does still govern everything, but what tends to be missing is the understanding that calorie needs are a moving target, and system inputs change system demands dynamically (IMO)

 

[Cirion]

Naw, it doesn't explain the phenomenom I just described. Gain weight on 1000 calories, lose weight on 4000 calories. There is no way raw energy expenditure can vary that wildly especially if one is sedentary. More accurately I think studies have vastly underestimated the metabolism lowering effects of cutting calories and/or having insufficient nutrients. Also there's the fact that hormones govern how calories are allocated. High androgens makes excess calorie either be used up or go towards muscle building, not fat gain. If you're juicing on roids, there's almost no way to get fat. Conversely, if your thyroid is FUBAR, it's impossible to lose weight almost and just looking at food makes you fat. As a kid I could pork out on obscene quantities of food and not get fat. That's because most youthful people have incredible metabolisms. A lot of why people gain weight here (myself included) is eating a lot of calories while having a FUBAR thyroid. Of course weight gain is gonna happen. But cutting calories isn't the answer either.

When the metabolism is trash, most T4 gets converted to rT3, which makes you lethargic and signals the body to store body fat. Conversely, when it is healthy it all goes to T3 which makes you energetic and signals the body to let go of fat.

Every time I am tempted to cut calories, I realize pretty quick it is NOT the answer. I end up wide awake at night with insomnia with hunger pains. No thanks. Never cutting again =P

 

[YourUniverse]

Naw, it doesn't explain the phenomenom I just described. Gain weight on 1000 calories, lose weight on 4000 calories. There is no way raw energy expenditure can vary that wildly especially if one is sedentary. More accurately I think studies have vastly underestimated the metabolism lowering effects of cutting calories and/or having insufficient nutrients. Also there's the fact that hormones govern how calories are allocated. High androgens makes excess calorie either be used up or go towards muscle building, not fat gain. If you're juicing on roids, there's almost no way to get fat. Conversely, if your thyroid is FUBAR, it's impossible to lose weight almost and just looking at food makes you fat. As a kid I could pork out on obscene quantities of food and not get fat. That's because most youthful people have incredible metabolisms. A lot of why people gain weight here (myself included) is eating a lot of calories while having a FUBAR thyroid. Of course weight gain is gonna happen. But cutting calories isn't the answer either.

When the metabolism is trash, most T4 gets converted to rT3, which makes you lethargic and signals the body to store body fat. Conversely, when it is healthy it all goes to T3 which makes you energetic and signals the body to let go of fat.

Every time I am tempted to cut calories, I realize pretty quick it is NOT the answer. I end up wide awake at night with insomnia with hunger pains. No thanks. Never cutting again =P

Youre arguing in favour of my point. If you lose weight on 4000 calories, you simply burned more than 4000 calories consistently (and vice versa on gaining on 1000 calories). Fixing thyroid, optimizing androgens, purging PUFA and etc. are all great ways to get a person to burn more calories

 

[YourUniverse]

Every time I am tempted to cut calories, I realize pretty quick it is NOT the answer. I end up wide awake at night with insomnia with hunger pains. No thanks. Never cutting again =P

I missed this part. "CICO" in body building means counting/restricting calories - I'm not for that, nor am I arguing that. Raising metabolism and fixing appetite signals to get natural CICO to work in a persons favour (purging PUFA, fixing thyroid, androgens and onwards) is what I believe in, and that doesnt have to be inconsistent with nor opposed to CICO.

 

[Kelj]

Then what happens to excess fat that you already have? Thanks

Here is my experience, verified by the experiences of others since I started eating enough calories ( as much as I want), with zero restriction of any food or macronutrient every day: I began this as an experiment to try what made sense from research I had done on biology, throwing out everything I thought I knew from my studies to become a clinical nutritionist. I was starting from a place of overweight. I knew this was caused by eating inconsistently. Some days I ate very little, either accidentally or because I was trying to eat "healthy". Some days I ate what, in the context of my suppressed metabolism (a metabolism achieved by undereating often), was an excess of calories. Those calories were stored for the famine days I had taught my body were coming for sure. Fat storage only follows a famine. Obviously, the only way out of this cycle is eating everything your body wants every day without your intellect interfering. I turned off, gradually, all the learned "warnings" from my brain and ate anything, in any quantity, in any volume I could eat. By could, I mean that I trusted that when my body had had enough of something I wouldn't be able to eat another bite of it on that occasion. That's what happened. Going into it, I informed my family that because I had been basically starving myself, I was going to put on weight. This is a body protecting itself from future famine. It is a wonderful, built-in protection. I made it clear that I didn't want any negativity about the weight gain which would also come with water retention. I told them if I persisted in eating an excess of calories my weight would begin to go down again and stay down forever no matter how much or how much sugar I ate. This is exactly what happened, to the letter. Ray Peat says the body can waste calories when our metabolism is normal. Our body will use the excess calories, too, to, finally, heal everything it has had to leave unfixed because of lack of energy. A well fed body (I mean abundant calories plus the nutrients that come with eating enough of what your body is begging for ie: craving) will always release non-optimal excess fat storage. Manipulating it to burn fat makes you unwell. Letting it be normal leads to health. An overweight body is always the result of one thing only: eating enough calories inconsistently. Weight loss can also be achieved by undereating CONSISTENTLY. But, you will never be well.

 

[Kelj]

Naw, it doesn't explain the phenomenom I just described. Gain weight on 1000 calories, lose weight on 4000 calories. There is no way raw energy expenditure can vary that wildly especially if one is sedentary. More accurately I think studies have vastly underestimated the metabolism lowering effects of cutting calories and/or having insufficient nutrients. Also there's the fact that hormones govern how calories are allocated. High androgens makes excess calorie either be used up or go towards muscle building, not fat gain. If you're juicing on roids, there's almost no way to get fat. Conversely, if your thyroid is FUBAR, it's impossible to lose weight almost and just looking at food makes you fat. As a kid I could pork out on obscene quantities of food and not get fat. That's because most youthful people have incredible metabolisms. A lot of why people gain weight here (myself included) is eating a lot of calories while having a FUBAR thyroid. Of course weight gain is gonna happen. But cutting calories isn't the answer either.

When the metabolism is trash, most T4 gets converted to rT3, which makes you lethargic and signals the body to store body fat. Conversely, when it is healthy it all goes to T3 which makes you energetic and signals the body to let go of fat.

Every time I am tempted to cut calories, I realize pretty quick it is NOT the answer. I end up wide awake at night with insomnia with hunger pains. No thanks. Never cutting again =P

I have personally experienced gaining weight on 1000 calories and losing weight on 4000 plus calories. The body does not rely on a strict, knowing, control of calories. Before anyone knew what a calorie was, they maintained normal weight if there was always plenty of food. If food was unavailable for a time, they lost weight. If there wasn't enough to maintain a normal metabolism, their metabolic rate dropped. If they were eating a mere 1000 calories for a little while, their bodies prioritized energy use and ran the most important operations only. If this went on for too long, they became very unwell. If food, again, became available they gained weight, their metabolism improved and even if they put on an excess of fat (highly likely) in this period, they would eventually lose it with continued eating in abundance. The body would use all this available energy to repair the damage done during starvation and the body would once again remodel the body every night during sleep and run all body functions in a normal way. This is what the body does with the 4000 plus calories. The unnecessary calorie intake, in the context of abundant, CONSISTANT calorie intake is wasted, as Ray Peat says. I can eat an abundance of calories now without putting on an ounce because I do it every day. Ray describes just how short a period of restriction turns on emergency metabolism, which causes weight gain and high blood sugar. It is all a result of low calorie eating and in the case of blood sugar abnormality, low carbohydrate eating, specifically.

 

[Kelj]

Youre arguing in favour of my point. If you lose weight on 4000 calories, you simply burned more than 4000 calories consistently (and vice versa on gaining on 1000 calories). Fixing thyroid, optimizing androgens, purging PUFA and etc. are all great ways to get a person to burn more calories

The body wastes excess calories when the metabolism is optimal according to Ray Peat and I agree. The metabolism does not become optimal without 1. Abundant calories 2. A high carbohydrate jntake.

 

[YourUniverse]

The body wastes excess calories when the metabolism is optimal according to Ray Peat and I agree. The metabolism does not become optimal without 1. Abundant calories 2. A high carbohydrate jntake.

No argument here, certainly that must be a part of it. What form does the "waste" take? Likely heat, which would still make a CICO analysis consistent.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah I think what I take issue is with those meatheads at bodybuilding.com that think an online calculator that says you can only expend 3000 calories a day (or whatever) is the gospel truth and that the *only* way to lose weight is to put an arbitrary 10-20% reduction to that.

 

[Kelj]

When I think about Ray's comment on wasting energy, I do think of increased heat production. He talks about babies sleeping, breathing rapidly, their heads being sweaty. That is an example of optimal metabolism at work. I make a point of saying the body can waste energy to emphasize how absolutely unnecessary it is to worry about eating too many calories. The only time too many calories will cause weight gain is if you restrict calories the day before. But, here is how it really works: your body knows what it needs, both in energy and nutrients. It has a central nervous system which interacts with our environment and tells us what we need. How is it that animals living freely, responsible for their own food intake, both in quantity and food choice don't become obese? Or, do they? What about bear, for example? Great point! Hibernating animals do put on excess fat. They do this because they must live off their fat all winter. They put on fat because they didn't eat for a long period. That is why we put on fat, as well. We have limited intake for some period and then eat freely again. We do that cycle over and over. Wild animals have optimal metabolism for their individual needs because they simply follow their intuition. Truly eating according to our intuition looks like this: we make no rules about eating. Our daily food intake varies according to what we feel like eating, when we feel like eating, and how much we feel like eating. This is because each day brings different needs. Only the body knows. It can tell us what we need to eat for optimal vitamin and mineral intake. Ray calls filling this need "Eating what seems most delicious to you". I never knew anyone who craved a vitamin supplement, but we usually know exactly what we want to eat, and it changes from day to day. When the body has had enough of something, we can't eat another bite of it. So, if we follow our body's desires, wasting energy may not come into it, but it will waste it, not store it, if metabolism is optimal. The body will do things, too, that are not necessary, but hey, why not, if it can. Why do kids run around so much, fidget, and climb things so randomly? Excess energy. If we don't have enough energy, we shuffle. If we do, we step out, we are restless, creative, we have personality. If we don't have enough energy our hair is thin, nails weak. To have luxurious hair and strong nails takes constant energy. We can live without them, but calories enable these normal things. Cico, thermodynamics, true! But, the body runs it's own operations without our intellect interfering. If we try to manipulate it, we ruin it.

 

[Peatful]

When I think about Ray's comment on wasting energy, I do think of increased heat production. He talks about babies sleeping, breathing rapidly, their heads being sweaty. That is an example of optimal metabolism at work. I make a point of saying the body can waste energy to emphasize how absolutely unnecessary it is to worry about eating too many calories. The only time too many calories will cause weight gain is if you restrict calories the day before. But, here is how it really works: your body knows what it needs, both in energy and nutrients. It has a central nervous system which interacts with our environment and tells us what we need. How is it that animals living freely, responsible for their own food intake, both in quantity and food choice don't become obese? Or, do they? What about bear, for example? Great point! Hibernating animals do put on excess fat. They do this because they must live off their fat all winter. They put on fat because they didn't eat for a long period. That is why we put on fat, as well. We have limited intake for some period and then eat freely again. We do that cycle over and over. Wild animals have optimal metabolism for their individual needs because they simply follow their intuition. Truly eating according to our intuition looks like this: we make no rules about eating. Our daily food intake varies according to what we feel like eating, when we feel like eating, and how much we feel like eating. This is because each day brings different needs. Only the body knows. It can tell us what we need to eat for optimal vitamin and mineral intake. Ray calls filling this need "Eating what seems most delicious to you". I never knew anyone who craved a vitamin supplement, but we usually know exactly what we want to eat, and it changes from day to day. When the body has had enough of something, we can't eat another bite of it. So, if we follow our body's desires, wasting energy may not come into it, but it will waste it, not store it, if metabolism is optimal. The body will do things, too, that are not necessary, but hey, why not, if it can. Why do kids run around so much, fidget, and climb things so randomly? Excess energy. If we don't have enough energy, we shuffle. If we do, we step out, we are restless, creative, we have personality. If we don't have enough energy our hair is thin, nails weak. To have luxurious hair and strong nails takes constant energy. We can live without them, but calories enable these normal things. Cico, thermodynamics, true! But, the body runs it's own operations without our intellect interfering. If we try to manipulate it, we ruin it.

@Kelj

Thanks for your passion and perspective.

You mention Peat stating specific ideas I have not heard him speak on (or read about) before.
Can you link which newsletter, interview or article Peat talks of these concepts? (Or point me in the right direction...)

Thank you!

 

[Kelj]

@Kelj

Thanks for your passion and perspective.

You mention Peat stating specific ideas I have not heard him speak on (or read about) before.
Can you link which newsletter, interview or article Peat talks of these concepts? (Or point me in the right direction...)

Thank you!

Thank you, Peatful! I located some references I though you might be referring to. There are three from a conversation with Andrew Murray on YouTube called "Weight Gain" from 2015. There were useful pieces of knowledge from this interview, but many comments in the conversation I have come to view as wrong. The useful scientific facts when applied to fat storage are still bound by old, unscientific ideas of what causes weight gain. When Dr. Peat's knowledge is combined with the daily practice of eating disorder recovery, we begin to see outside the brainwashing about calories. At the 18 minute, 28 second mark of this conversation, Dr. Peat talks about "Eating food most delicious to you". At the 40 minute, 25 second mark, Ray says this: "very healthy 12 to 15 year old people burn fuel very wastefully, but that is when people are least likely to die is when they are using fuel like crazy....are the healthiest and most resistant to stress....it looks like a waste to eat thousands of calories a day when you're not doing anything, but, it's good for you...the wasteful energy metabolism". At the 49 minute, 25 second mark, Dr. Peat says, "some people steam up the window of the bedroom so that water runs down the bottom of the window in the morning. Those are people who lose a lot of weight by evaporation during the night." ( a partial explanation of how the body can waste energy).

 

[Peatful]

Thank you, Peatful! I located some references I though you might be referring to. There are three from a conversation with Andrew Murray on YouTube called "Weight Gain" from 2015. There were useful pieces of knowledge from this interview, but many comments in the conversation I have come to view as wrong. The useful scientific facts when applied to fat storage are still bound by old, unscientific ideas of what causes weight gain. When Dr. Peat's knowledge is combined with the daily practice of eating disorder recovery, we begin to see outside the brainwashing about calories. At the 18 minute, 28 second mark of this conversation, Dr. Peat talks about "Eating food most delicious to you". At the 40 minute, 25 second mark, Ray says this: "very healthy 12 to 15 year old people burn fuel very wastefully, but that is when people are least likely to die is when they are using fuel like crazy....are the healthiest and most resistant to stress....it looks like a waste to eat thousands of calories a day when you're not doing anything, but, it's good for you...the wasteful energy metabolism". At the 49 minute, 25 second mark, Dr. Peat says, "some people steam up the window of the bedroom so that water runs down the bottom of the window in the morning. Those are people who lose a lot of weight by evaporation during the night." ( a partial explanation of how the body can waste energy).

Thank you @Kelj