Copper Restores Damaged Cytochrome C Oxidase Activity

[haidut]

More specifically, exogenous copper supplementation, not copper present in food. So, for those that do not fancy liver, copper supplementation maybe a viable route. Ray has said that 4oz of liver has 30mg of copper, which is our weekly requirement. So, I am taking 4mg copper gluconate daily and will post update in a month. I have some greying hairs that should get color restored from the copper supplementation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24549041

 

[BingDing]

A timely thread, haidut, I just started using Nutrabio copper glycinate. The first dose yesterday was very similar to the first time I ate squid; I felt a distinct effect from it.

From a bit of research I've done I think that all of the oxidase enzymes have a copper atom in the middle of it. A local guy was discussing copper as important for flexibility in the joints and I found several references to lysyl oxidase. I have not done any more research, just want to propose the idea.

 

[SaltGirl]

I used to take Liquid Chlorophyll which is a Sodium Copper Complex. What I experienced was:

- Much less gas passing through.
- Occasionally I felt much warmer, especially after food.
- Hair on lower leg and armpits became much much darker. Darker than they have ever been(so now I need to shave them even more...)
- I am transgender so I have a little facial hair that I am currently in the process of removing and a lot of my facial hairs started becoming much darker after supplementation, which actually makes it much easier to kill them off.

In regards to hair color the interesting thing is that a lot of the colored hair were bottom up, ie. the lower they were the darker they were(ie. facial hair nearer neck was darker than those closer to my eyes.

A friend of mine experimented with it as well and he experimented a considerable reduction in swelling. For example his ring on his ring finger became loose on his finger, at least until he went to some ceremony/banquet and overate of what was most likely PUFA rich food.

So far I would say my experience from it has been mostly positive.

 

[jyb]

I also have had a little bit of random greying hair in the last few months. I tried to increase my oyster intake for the copper, but it didn't seem to do any difference for the hair.

There are studies out there on repleting copper with cocoa, but copper intake with that is usually much less than 4mg which you could get from supplementing. I think I'll try a copper glycinate supp (can't seem to find a pure source of gluconate in the UK) and report back.

 

[kiran]

I think copper is beneficial for me, but only if I already have my metabolism/thyroid dialed in. I didn't notice this benefit from Cu when I supplemented before.

 

[jyb]

I randomly found this going against using the gluconate form of copper as a supp:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2931973

 

[kiran]

But glycinate does work to some extent.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22444781

 

[haidut]

I randomly found this going against using the gluconate form of copper as a supp:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2931973

Thanks, I will keep it mind. I think for me it might be doing something b/c when I was (foolishly) taking 12mg copper gluconate daily about a year ago, I started getting copperish taste in my mouth, my sweat smelled like copper, and I had terrible nausea too. So it was definitely getting absorbed, to the point of giving me copper toxicity. With 4mg a day I don;t get the nausea any more but also thyroid is a lot more under control now. So, if I don't see an effect in a month I will stop using it.

 

[jyb]

How does copper/zinc competition works? If its just a local mechanism, like when both are ingested at the same time and absorption is prevented in the stomach, then it seems pretty easy to avoid - just don't supplement at every meal or near the nutrient dense meal. However it seems more complicated than that, because I often see warning of copper deficiency with zinc supplement.

 

[BingDing]

My notion that all the oxidase enzymes have a copper atom is wrong. But there are a lot of enzymes with copper, called cuproenzymes. The Linus Pauling Institute, which seems to be a pretty sober source for physiology information, has a page which lists many of them. As it notes, we just don't know enough to say what levels we need for optimum health or to fully know how copper, zinc, and iron interact.

Danny Roddy has a page about copper with some RP sources, here.

My thinking is that I don't eat a lot of common dietary sources of copper like nuts, wheat germ, grains, and I just don't like liver, oysters, etc. I can force myself to eat some things as an experiment but for the long term, eating things that gross me out isn't a sustainable option. So supplementing at RDA (2 mg/day) levels of copper should be fairly safe and makes sense to me.

 

[jyb]

http://valtsus.blogspot.fi/2014/01/copp ... rient.html

has a paragraph on why copper should be from food not supplements, as from supplement it can bypass the liver and it would not be good to have elevated free serum copper.

 

[jyb]

Is the food form of copper (eg. from beef liver) copper gluconate? If so, maybe it wouldn't bypass the liver, contrary to copper glycinate.

 

[kiran]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8615368

Liver copper storage and transport during development: implications for cytotoxicity.
Luza SC1, Speisky HC.

Copper is an essential trace element for many biological processes. Its functions range from influencing specific gene expression to serving as a cofactor or prosthetic group for several enzymes. Intakes of copper at doses that exceed physiologic demands are normally met with efficient homeostatic mechanisms. Ceruloplasmin, albumin, and transcuprein, and to a lesser extent certain amino acids, are major copper-transporting constituents in circulating plasma. After its hepatic uptake, copper may be stored within hepatocytes, secreted into plasma, or excreted in bile. The biliary route represents the major excretory pathway of copper and largely accounts for its hepatic turnover. Copper retained by hepatocytes is mostly bound to specific metal-binding proteins, primarily metallothionein, or incorporated into several cuproenzymes. Copper incorporation into metallothionein and certain cuproproteins appears to require prior binding of copper to glutathione, thus defining a relation between copper metabolism and the intracellular availability of glutathione. Hepatic metallothionein concentrations can be modulated by dietary copper; changes in metallothionein and in copper status are significant throughout development. Binding of copper to metallothionein provides a temporary storage for cytoplasmic copper, preventing it from occurring as (potentially toxic) free ionic metal. In its unbound form, copper can generate hydroxyl radicals. Because metallothionein exhibits a high reactivity toward these radicals, it is increasingly recognized to play a protective role against copper-induced cytotoxicity. We discuss some of the possible toxicologic implications that may arise from changes in hepatic copper and metallothionein status during development.

 

[jyb]

What does it say about copper supplements bypassing liver? For when it goes through the liver, the study shows how some antioxidants protect from copper toxicity.

 

[jyb]

In the "Chronic exposures" paragraph of Wikipedia's Copper in health article, there are few studies showing that that in vivo there was little evidence of harm of supplementation. Eg., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748413 for copper sulfate and chelates.

The studies cited in valtsus's blog above on the dangers of copper supplement are population based, and the study claiming that ingesting copper supplements can bypass the liver is subject to discussion. In particular, it's not clear how much really can bypass the liver. It is also noted that mixing copper with milk is likely to make some of that copper protein bound, which will then for sure not bypass the liver.

So, I keep reading about the harms of unbound copper in the blood. However, maybe that an insignificant from supplement actually bypasses the liver and becomes unbound, which would explain the studies showing no adverse effect. But what about the population studies in valtsus' blog showing adverse effects?

 

[narouz]

Wish I could be more helpful with the exact reference,
but in an interview I listened to recently
Peat remarked that
trying to get metals via supplementation
is an especially bad thing to supplement.
Sorry, but I can't remember exactly why.
He said getting them through foods was much safer/more effective.

 

[BingDing]

http://valtsus.blogspot.fi/2014/01/copper-forgotten-essential-nutrient.html

has a paragraph on why copper should be from food not supplements, as from supplement it can bypass the liver and it would not be good to have elevated free serum copper.

The experiment that had copper bypassing the liver was with atomic or ionic copper, which isn't necessarily the same as supplementing vs copper from food. Copper glycinate supplements bind the copper ion and satisfy the Cu electron imbalance, so should do a decent job of keeping the Cu atom from disassociating into ionic form in the stomach and intestine.

Copper bound to an amino acid is also known as a safe way to transport copper, though I'm damned if I can find the source where I read that. I suppose it is similar to being bound to a protein.

I've done no research on copper gluconate. I thought copper glycinate was good because glycine is one of the "good" amino acids.

It's a bit ironic that RP sort of approved copper bracelets in an email reply to someone. Copper bracelets would provide copper in the atomic or ionic form.

 

[Peata]

More specifically, exogenous copper supplementation, not copper present in food. So, for those that do not fancy liver, copper supplementation maybe a viable route. Ray has said that 4oz of liver has 30mg of copper, which is our weekly requirement. So, I am taking 4mg copper gluconate daily and will post update in a month. I have some greying hairs that should get color restored from the copper supplementation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24549041

Has a month been long enough to see any difference? Do you have an update?

 

[Mittir]

Ray has said that 4oz of liver has 30mg of copper, which is our weekly requirement. So, I am taking 4mg copper gluconate daily and will post update in a month.

Is that a typo? Nutritondata shows 1 oz of raw beef liver
has about 2.7 mg of copper, which is 137% RDA.

 

[jyb]

I have also joined the supplement experiment, but 1 month is still too early. If its long enough to replete copper stores, still need to wait for hair growth starting from now and see if there's a difference.