Children Drinking Whole Milk Are Leaner Than Ones Drinking Skim Or Low Fat Milk

[managing]

The study was done 2745 on children from 1-6 years old. Children can burn off excess fat calories because of their extremely high metabolic rates. Children from 1-6 have different dietary needs than adults. I don't think many children read forums for nutrition advice.

That is a possible explanation for why the Whole group didn't get fat. But it does not explain the fact that the Skim group did get fat.

Nonsense.

Ray Peat on eating starch instead of sugar - there saying that it comes down to "healthy digestion.."

But that is exactly the point. IF the digestion is healthy. My own personal experience supports this and I have no problem with rice, potato or refined flour breads. But if the digestion is not healthy, starch can ferment and/or be digested by other troublesome microbes.

So you could divide the study's two groups further:

Whole/Healthy digestion
Whole/Unhealthy digestion
Skim/Healthy Digestion
Skim/Unhealthy Digestion

Its entirely plausible (although certainly not proven ) that last group accounted for a majority of the statistical significance between the Whole/Skim group. In which case the authors' speculation about starch would be plausible AND entirely consistent with RP's input.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

But if the digestion is not healthy, starch can ferment and/or be digested by other troublesome microbes.

He said "can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches." I know of his negative starch quotes but there's also the positive ones like these.

But that is exactly the point. IF the digestion is healthy.

Well, shouldn't it be? Digestive health is a part of health. So many people in the alt-health world use the word "optimally.." Well, optimally, boiled/steamed (and some baked roots which are really the only okay baked kinds if not dried out too much) starch should be fine for someone and if it's not, then like many in Peatland say about milk when it's not optimal for someone, "figure out why.." Well, figure out why for starch too then. Or don't. It doesn't matter if you do lactose/sucrose from fruit and you have no problems but many want to eat starch because they do have problems with lactose/sucrose and/or they prefer it. This is why I say there is a 1st tier Peat diet and a second tier one. Because he doesn't consume it out of preference and it's worked for him since he's made to to 80+ heart disease and cancer free. But what I like about him is that he sees how starch works, which is why I put those quotes together. And I like how he knows the truth about over consuming SFA from dairy which many in the alt-health world don't want to believe and are in denial about. The WAP and Asprey types who claim that it can never cause fat gain.

 

[DaveFoster]

Because he doesn't consume it out of preference

He eats mushrooms instead of carrots out of preference. He doesn't eat starch because of the endotoxin effects. Similarly, he doesn't eat too much meat because of the tryptophan, methionine and cysteine.

Also, it's important to note that all foods hold trade-offs, although certain foods have more benefits than others (potatoes rather than corn for example.)

 

[managing]

He said "can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches." I know of his negative starch quotes but there's also the positive ones like these.



Well, shouldn't it be? Digestive health is a part of health. So many people in the alt-health world use the word "optimally.." Well, optimally, boiled/steamed (and some baked roots which are really the only okay baked kinds if not dried out too much) starch should be fine for someone and if it's not, then like many in Peatland say about milk when it's not optimal for someone, "figure out why.." Well, figure out why for starch too then. Or don't. It doesn't matter if you do lactose/sucrose from fruit and you have no problems but many want to eat starch because they do have problems with lactose/sucrose and/or they prefer it. This is why I say there is a 1st tier Peat diet and a second tier one. Because he doesn't consume it out of preference and it's worked for him since he's made to to 80+ heart disease and cancer free. But what I like about him is that he sees how starch works, which is why I put those quotes together. And I like how he knows the truth about over consuming SFA from dairy which many in the alt-health world don't want to believe and are in denial about. The WAP and Asprey types who claim that it can never cause fat gain.

Yeah. Ok. But we are talking about the study @haidut posted. So, like I said, "starch" could quite reasonably be the confound the authors suggest it is. And this study runs counter to what Peat has said about whole fat milk. I don't think anybody has suggested they have the last word on that. Well, almost nobody.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

He eats mushrooms instead of carrots out of preference.

Last I heard him say about it was that he got bored of the daily carrot but he didn't say that he stopped eating them altogether.

He doesn't eat starch because of the endotoxin effects.

I disagree. I don't think that's why. I think it's that he gets enough carbohydrate from galactose and fruit sugars and doesn't care to go out of his way to shop, chop and cook starch. What you're ignoring here is all of the positive quotes I post. And especially the "healthy digestion" quote. What of that then? If it's just endotoxin then he would have never said the healthy digestion quote, which was recent, as well as the "as much sugar and starch, preferably sugars.." quote.

Again, 116 quotes on endotoxin, only 2 mention starch.

Endotoxin is a much bigger issue than "starch."

Also, it's important to note that all foods hold trade-offs, although certain foods have more benefits than others (potatoes rather than corn for example.)

No s*it. Rob Turner injected that into Peatland 5 years ago saying" There is no perfect food; each comes with give and take. When eating for health, savvy eaters choose foods that give the most and take away the least."

Yeah. Ok. But we are talking about the study @haidut posted. So, like I said, "starch" could quite reasonably be the confound the authors suggest it is. And this study runs counter to what Peat has said about whole fat milk. I don't think anybody has suggested they have the last word on that. Well, almost nobody.

Ok but Haidut posted it on the RPF and it/he mentioned whole milk and starch. I then posted RP quotes on whole milk and starch and then a separate excerpt about infants and amylase.

The study is garbage.

"Daily outdoor free play was measured by the question, “On a typical weekday, how much time does your child spend outside in ‘unstructured free play’?” Daily screen time was quantified with the question, “On a typical day, how many min- utes did your child spend in a room with a TV, video games, computer games, or handheld device games on?” Milk volume and sugar-sweetened beverages consumed daily were quantified by asking, “How many cups of each drink does your child have currently in a typical day?”

Questionnaires are not objective data.

And on page 6 they said:

"The limitations of our analysis include the study design; in a cross-sectional analysis, causality and its direction cannot be established between the exposure and outcomes. Data collection for milk consumption was by parent report, which may be subject to recall bias."

 

[DaveFoster]

Last I heard him say about it was that he got bored of the daily carrot but he didn't say that he stopped eating them altogether.



I disagree. I don't think that's why. I think it's that he gets enough carbohydrate from galactose and fruit sugars and doesn't care to go out of his way to shop, chop and cook starch. What you're ignoring here is all of the positive quotes I post. And especially the "healthy digestion" quote. What of that then? If it's just endotoxin then he would have never said the healthy digestion quote, which was recent, as well as the "as much sugar and starch, preferably sugars.." quote.

Again, 116 quotes on endotoxin, only 2 mention starch.

Endotoxin is a much bigger issue than "starch."



No s*it. Rob Turner injected that into Peatland 5 years ago saying" There is no perfect food; each comes with give and take. When eating for health, savvy eaters choose foods that give the most and take away the least."



Ok but Haidut posted it on the RPF and it/he mentioned whole milk and starch. I then posted RP quotes on whole milk and starch and then a separate excerpt about infants and amylase.

The study is garbage.

"Daily outdoor free play was measured by the question, “On a typical weekday, how much time does your child spend outside in ‘unstructured free play’?” Daily screen time was quantified with the question, “On a typical day, how many min- utes did your child spend in a room with a TV, video games, computer games, or handheld device games on?” Milk volume and sugar-sweetened beverages consumed daily were quantified by asking, “How many cups of each drink does your child have currently in a typical day?”

Questionnaires are not objective data.

And on page 6 they said:

"The limitations of our analysis include the study design; in a cross-sectional analysis, causality and its direction cannot be established between the exposure and outcomes. Data collection for milk consumption was by parent report, which may be subject to recall bias."

You're assuming that Dr. Peat has excellent digestion, but he's said that he's been hypothyroid for a good portion of his life. He's said that he eats turnips because they taste good and have minimal starch, so I'm sure he doesn't prefer starch for taste reasons, but he's also said that he wouldn't consume potatoes because of the allergenicity.

 

[raypeatclips]

You're assuming that Dr. Peat has excellent digestion, but he's said that he's been hypothyroid for a good portion of his life. He's said that he eats turnips because they taste good and have minimal starch, so I'm sure he doesn't prefer starch for taste reasons, but he's also said that he wouldn't consume potatoes because of the allergenicity.

Where has he said he wouldn't consume them? I've seen him say for people to be aware of their allergic potential and to look out for symptoms. I've seen him say many times beneficial things about potatoes.

I see his issues with starch being persorption that he mentions often, but I don't think this is a problem with boiled starch.

I have also seen him mention they are not as nutritious as sugary foods that have extra minerals etc. The rest of my diet is nutrient dense apart from rice that I eat. I see the rice that I eat similar to the white sugar some people consume, just a source of energy, although rice does have some minerals albeit not many.

People are quick to point out the endotoxin issues which Westside informs us Peat has barely mentioned in relation to starch. In my experiences with boiled starch I haven't noticed any negative endotoxin symptoms when consuming adequate fat in the diet (although my negatives with low fat might not be endotoxin related and something else it is impossible to say.)

I find it hard to believe people view things such as boiled white rice and boiled white potatoes as such devastating things. There are countless centenarian reports that mention eating one of those on a daily basis. I just can't see something that causes so many issues with persorption, endotoxin etc, allowing someone to live past 110 eating it on a daily basis. I don't buy it.

 

[DaveFoster]

Where has he said he wouldn't consume them? I've seen him say for people to be aware of their allergic potential and to look out for symptoms. I've seen him say many times beneficial things about potatoes.

I see his issues with starch being persorption that he mentions often, but I don't think this is a problem with boiled starch.

I have also seen him mention they are not as nutritious as sugary foods that have extra minerals etc. The rest of my diet is nutrient dense apart from rice that I eat. I see the rice that I eat similar to the white sugar some people consume, just a source of energy, although rice does have some minerals albeit not many.

People are quick to point out the endotoxin issues which Westside informs us Peat has barely mentioned in relation to starch. In my experiences with boiled starch I haven't noticed any negative endotoxin symptoms when consuming adequate fat in the diet (although my negatives with low fat might not be endotoxin related and something else it is impossible to say.)

I find it hard to believe people view things such as boiled white rice and boiled white potatoes as such devastating things. There are countless centenarian reports that mention eating one of those on a daily basis. I just can't see something that causes so many issues with persorption, endotoxin etc, allowing someone to live past 110 eating it on a daily basis. I don't buy it.

It's mentioned in one of WestsidePUFA's threads regarding a direct question about potatoes:

"Ray,

You have said in interviews that you think it's good to avoid starch, but you've also said that potatoes are nearly a perfect food. I know you think it's good to eat some butter with starch but you've also said that you think too much butter can be fattening and you also like low fat or skim milk. So if one was to get a lot of daily calories from potatoes with no butter added, is the starch from the potato still likely to contribute to soft tissue or lymph damage from starch particles or is that only of concern from flour products, that is, starch consumed from flour products, which are usually consumed with the polyunsaturated fats."

RE:"I think potato starch is likely to cause some cumulative damage if it isn’t eaten with some fat. I don’t eat potatoes, both because of the starch and their allergenicity. As a cheap source of nourishment, they are far better than the beans and rice that are often recommended for cheap protein and calories. When the starch is removed, the cooked liquid can be used as a protein supplement for people with special metabolic problems."

Source: Potatoes Aren't Peaty

I cannot tolerate white rice mixed with coconut oil whatsoever, and it destroys my mental state for the next day. Red waxy potatoes sufficiently sauteed with coconut oil and gelatinous beef stew have a more mild, tolerable effect.

 

[managing]

Last I heard him say about it was that he got bored of the daily carrot but he didn't say that he stopped eating them altogether.



I disagree. I don't think that's why. I think it's that he gets enough carbohydrate from galactose and fruit sugars and doesn't care to go out of his way to shop, chop and cook starch. What you're ignoring here is all of the positive quotes I post. And especially the "healthy digestion" quote. What of that then? If it's just endotoxin then he would have never said the healthy digestion quote, which was recent, as well as the "as much sugar and starch, preferably sugars.." quote.

Again, 116 quotes on endotoxin, only 2 mention starch.

Endotoxin is a much bigger issue than "starch."



No s*it. Rob Turner injected that into Peatland 5 years ago saying" There is no perfect food; each comes with give and take. When eating for health, savvy eaters choose foods that give the most and take away the least."



Ok but Haidut posted it on the RPF and it/he mentioned whole milk and starch. I then posted RP quotes on whole milk and starch and then a separate excerpt about infants and amylase.

The study is garbage.

"Daily outdoor free play was measured by the question, “On a typical weekday, how much time does your child spend outside in ‘unstructured free play’?” Daily screen time was quantified with the question, “On a typical day, how many min- utes did your child spend in a room with a TV, video games, computer games, or handheld device games on?” Milk volume and sugar-sweetened beverages consumed daily were quantified by asking, “How many cups of each drink does your child have currently in a typical day?”

Questionnaires are not objective data.

And on page 6 they said:

"The limitations of our analysis include the study design; in a cross-sectional analysis, causality and its direction cannot be established between the exposure and outcomes. Data collection for milk consumption was by parent report, which may be subject to recall bias."

Perhaps you should avoid sciencing if you don't understand how its done. Taking potshots doesn't undermine premises or conclusions. Quoting limitations--a section every study is required to have by convention and enforced by editors, doesn't invalidate.

You are now running for your life from your original claim, which is that it can't be starch consumption causing the difference between the whole/skim groups. Yes, this is a RP forum. But the random stuff you are quoting doesn't even pertain to the question.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Perhaps you should avoid sciencing if you don't understand how its done.

Perhaps you're just an angry and rude person. Don't tell me what to do.

Taking potshots doesn't undermine premises or conclusions.

What's your definition of "potshot?" Actually, don't answer. I lost interest in what you have to say.

Quoting limitations--a section every study is required to have by convention and enforced by editors, doesn't invalidate.

Quite academic authoritarian of you. I couldn't care less. The only studies that hold anything of value in nutrition and humans are controlled clinical trials, not questionnaires. If you like any other studies then good for you but no need to bash others for not agreeing.

You are now running for your life from your original claim, which is that it can't be starch consumption causing the difference between the whole/skim groups.

Strawman.

Yes, this is a RP forum. But the random stuff you are quoting doesn't even pertain to the question.

Thanks for making me laugh.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

You're assuming that Dr. Peat has excellent digestion, but he's said that he's been hypothyroid for a good portion of his life. He's said that he eats turnips because they taste good and have minimal starch, so I'm sure he doesn't prefer starch for taste reasons, but he's also said that he wouldn't consume potatoes because of the allergenicity.

I've never seen him say that he's been hypothyroid for that long. He's been taking thyroid since the 70's so he shouldn't be hypothyroid. So his digestion should be optimal because he's taking thyroid. There are other starches that do not have the same compounds as potatoes like white rice and squashes so it's not just an allergenicity thing.

 

[Wagner83]

Here was a mail from Ray on starch at the end of the post, I think he avoids it for many reasons, the so called persorption being one possible candidate:
Sugar Or Starch? Perfect Health Diet Confusion?

 

[managing]

I've never seen him say that he's been hypothyroid for that long. He's been taking thyroid since the 70's so he shouldn't be hypothyroid. So his digestion should be optimal because he's taking thyroid. There are other starches that do not have the same compounds as potatoes like white rice and squashes so it's not just an allergenicity thing.

I'm not the angry and authoritarian one. Peace to you Wheat and PUFA's.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

That is a possible explanation for why the Whole group didn't get fat. But it does not explain the fact that the Skim group did get fat.



But that is exactly the point. IF the digestion is healthy. My own personal experience supports this and I have no problem with rice, potato or refined flour breads. But if the digestion is not healthy, starch can ferment and/or be digested by other troublesome microbes.

So you could divide the study's two groups further:

Whole/Healthy digestion
Whole/Unhealthy digestion
Skim/Healthy Digestion
Skim/Unhealthy Digestion

Its entirely plausible (although certainly not proven ) that last group accounted for a majority of the statistical significance between the Whole/Skim group. In which case the authors' speculation about starch would be plausible AND entirely consistent with RP's input.

I've tested this multiple times on myself.

Skim milk makes you fatter than whole milk.

The protein is not bound by any fat. The protein really spikes insulin levels. You are hungry within 1-2 hrs after skim milk. Same if not more insulin that straight glucose, but without any of the energy.

Drink milk the way it is. 1-3 glasses a day is plenty, the rest of protein should come from gelatin anyway.

I believe protein must always be accompanied by fat. Such an influx of tryptophan and other inflammatory amino is akin to eating the leanest muscle on a game animal. The part that hunters eat last after all the organs and fatty pieces are eaten.

When I switched to Whole fat milk. My blood sugar stayed stable, I could slowly absorb my protein over time, lactose slowly broke down, fat absorbed for slow burn muscle fuel.

 

[Mossy]

Drink milk the way it is. 1-3 glasses a day is plenty, the rest of protein should come from gelatin anyway.

Does this comment suggest you would have to limit your full-fat milk intake to 1-3 glasses inorder to not have additional or unwanted fat gain from it?

I ask because I feel full-fat milk AND full-fat cottage cheese were the catalyst to visceral fat gain for me. Nothing major, but noticabe for the first time in my life. I’ve since started using low-fat versions of both and have slightly lost weight, though it’s negligible that the lose is visceral fat specifically.

 

[raypeatclips]

Does this comment suggest you would have to limit your full-fat milk intake to 1-3 glasses inorder to not have additional or unwanted fat gain from it?

I ask because I feel full-fat milk AND full-fat cottage cheese were the catalyst to visceral fat gain for me. Nothing major, but noticabe for the first time in my life. I’ve since started using low-fat versions of both and have slightly lost weight, though it’s negligible that the lose is visceral fat specifically.

Did you change anything else about your diet when you included the whole milk? Fat is considerably more calorific than carbs or protein so it is easy to over consume calories. I am eating more fat than I've ever eaten, but to within my calorie limits and losing weight.

 

[rei]

This study is completely in line with other studies on full fat vs skim milk. From metabolic syndrome to CVD mortality, full fat milk as the only variable has proven extremely protective and healthy. If you drink it non-homogenized "lactose intolerants" usually become tolerant. And it tastes much better, too.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Does this comment suggest you would have to limit your full-fat milk intake to 1-3 glasses inorder to not have additional or unwanted fat gain from it?

I ask because I feel full-fat milk AND full-fat cottage cheese were the catalyst to visceral fat gain for me. Nothing major, but noticabe for the first time in my life. I’ve since started using low-fat versions of both and have slightly lost weight, though it’s negligible that the lose is visceral fat specifically.

If you consume full fat to get all your protein, you will get fat, just as peat says in one of his quotes.

Almost all proteins are fat bound. Isolated sources like whey/egg whites are so
dangerous to blood sugar/health. While skim/1% are essentially identical products to the former.

I believe less protein is really needed than what's recommended here, particularly the inflammatory amino. Add 6TBS of Geatin throughout the day, if your worried about not getting enough protein. Always drink it after fatty milk/meal.

1 glasses of full fat alongside some fruit/oj is a perfect meal for me.

Don't see any point/need to drink a gallon of liquid protein(skim)

 

[YourUniverse]

Pigs fed high fat diets got skinny

 

[raypeatclips]

If you consume full fat to get all your protein, you will get fat, just as peat says in one of his quotes.

Almost all proteins are fat bound. Isolated sources like whey/egg whites are so
dangerous to blood sugar/health. While skim/1% are essentially identical products to the former.

I believe less protein is really needed than what's recommended here, particularly the inflammatory amino. Add 6TBS of Geatin throughout the day, if your worried about not getting enough protein. Always drink it after fatty milk/meal.

1 glasses of full fat alongside some fruit/oj is a perfect meal for me.

Don't see any point/need to drink a gallon of liquid protein(skim)

Yeah if you get literally all your protein from full fat dairy sources that is going to be hugely calorific, with the fat that comes alongside it.

I have heard this inflammatory aminos thing many times through Peat but in my personal experience the reverse is true. When I was eating barely any meat and mostly dairy I felt horrendous.