Absolutely Horrible Lab Numbers !

[Frankdee20]

Seem high in pufas, low metabolism. Low fat, pufa elimination and thyroid will probably to help immensely. Far too much drinking also which is highly estrogenic in those quantities. Have you considered these.

I’ve definitely considered low Thyroid being an issue but I’ve had extensive Thyroid assays and it is never out of range. Thyroid is definitely linked to Triglycerides being high, and poor conversion of lipids to steroid hormones. However, I’ve never used a Thyroid hormone. Also, I don’t think I eat much PuFA, no processed junk. I also like fatty fish but it’s not that significant in my diet. Also, low fat diet does not sound bad at all. I’d probably benefit from that, maybe in the weight loss department. But fat is filling, so eating low fat might make me hungrier

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’ve definitely considered low Thyroid being an issue but I’ve had extensive Thyroid assays and it is never out of range. Thyroid is definitely linked to Triglycerides being high, and poor conversion of lipids to steroid hormones. However, I’ve never used a Thyroid hormone. Also, I don’t think I eat much PuFA, no processed junk. I also like fatty fish but it’s not that significant in my diet. Also, low fat diet does not sound bad at all. I’d probably benefit from that, maybe in the weight loss department. But fat is filling, so eating low fat might make me hungrier

I initially asked about temperatures and heart rate. Dr. Peat has said that the tests are really worthless and I think this too. The Broda Barnes method is quite helpful.

Most people have fine thyroid from the current blood test perspective, but 40% of adults are probably low thyroid functionally and your case seems classic.

Rather than focusing on T, I’d focus on increasing metabolism safely.

 

[schultz]

I’m buying a Testosterone test and will update with hopefully better numbers. I really don’t feel like it’s 291. I think that was a fluke.

I don't think you should pay any mind to that result. You also took the test at 11 when it really should be taken first thing in the morning, and you also had some food which I think also throws the numbers off (might depend on how much food you had). Who knows how the vodka would affect the serum T, it might depend on whether or not you're an alcoholic. I think T levels will rise in alcoholics when they consume a drink, whereas it drops in regular folk. I don't think it's the alcohol raising the T for the alcoholics, but some mental yearning for a drink and the concomitant relief of receiving the drink (the mental reward). Heck, just watching your favourite sports team win will raise T. 1 off blood tests, as opposed to consistent and methodical, might do more harm than good for most people. Blood tests are certainly in style right now.

S-testosterone decrease after a mixed meal in healthy men independent of SHBG and gonadotrophin levels. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
Reproducible and accurate assessment of serum testosterone (S-T), S-LH and S-SHBG is of crucial importance for assessment of testicular endocrine function and diagnosis of hypogonadism and investigating male health in a broader sense. Testosterone secretion has a circadian rhythm with the highest component in the morning and is influenced by a series of factors including physical activity, mental stress and nutrition. For diagnostic purposes, analysis of morning samples is recommended and reference values are generally based on samples drawn between 7 and 10 am. In the literature, there are also indications that food intake can influence serum levels but fasting has not been a standard procedure. To carefully address the influence of food intake, we analysed S-testosterone, S-LH and S-SHBG after an overnight fasting compared to samples taken after a standard meal of 550 kcal. We found no change in S-LH or S-SHBG but a decline of S-T of 30% from 60 to 120 min after food intake compared to samples taken in the fasting state. This decline may give false low S-T values and overestimate the number of men with suspected hypogonadism. Until the mechanism behind this effect has been explored, we suggest that assessment of S-T for diagnostic purposes should be collected in the morning after an overnight fasting.

 

[Frankdee20]

My last 3 TSH readings all about one year apart have been 1.85 (with 7.2 total T4); 1.39 (with 1.3 Free T4); and this last one 1.35.

My last HDL (good cholesterol) readings have been - 27 (low) ; 38 (low) and now 45 (in range). The Chol/HDL ratio has steadily improved, but I don’t know if significant.

 

[Frankdee20]

Thank you all for chiming in, much appreciated.

 

[Spondive]

I don't think you should pay any mind to that result. You also took the test at 11 when it really should be taken first thing in the morning, and you also had some food which I think also throws the numbers off (might depend on how much food you had). Who knows how the vodka would affect the serum T, it might depend on whether or not you're an alcoholic. I think T levels will rise in alcoholics when they consume a drink, whereas it drops in regular folk. I don't think it's the alcohol raising the T for the alcoholics, but some mental yearning for a drink and the concomitant relief of receiving the drink (the mental reward). Heck, just watching your favourite sports team win will raise T. 1 off blood tests, as opposed to consistent and methodical, might do more harm than good for most people. Blood tests are certainly in style right now.

S-testosterone decrease after a mixed meal in healthy men independent of SHBG and gonadotrophin levels. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
Reproducible and accurate assessment of serum testosterone (S-T), S-LH and S-SHBG is of crucial importance for assessment of testicular endocrine function and diagnosis of hypogonadism and investigating male health in a broader sense. Testosterone secretion has a circadian rhythm with the highest component in the morning and is influenced by a series of factors including physical activity, mental stress and nutrition. For diagnostic purposes, analysis of morning samples is recommended and reference values are generally based on samples drawn between 7 and 10 am. In the literature, there are also indications that food intake can influence serum levels but fasting has not been a standard procedure. To carefully address the influence of food intake, we analysed S-testosterone, S-LH and S-SHBG after an overnight fasting compared to samples taken after a standard meal of 550 kcal. We found no change in S-LH or S-SHBG but a decline of S-T of 30% from 60 to 120 min after food intake compared to samples taken in the fasting state. This decline may give false low S-T values and overestimate the number of men with suspected hypogonadism. Until the mechanism behind this effect has been explored, we suggest that assessment of S-T for diagnostic purposes should be collected in the morning after an overnight fasting.

Very interesting

 

[ecstatichamster]

My last 3 TSH readings all about one year apart have been 1.85 (with 7.2 total T4); 1.39 (with 1.3 Free T4); and this last one 1.35.

My last HDL (good cholesterol) readings have been - 27 (low) ; 38 (low) and now 45 (in range). The Chol/HDL ratio has steadily improved, but I don’t know if significant.

Take temps and HR.

 

[Cirion]

A serious question - why is there obsession over TSH in the peat world? I get the standard answer - TSH is supposedly inflammatory etc. Well then how is it that people who generally score very low on TSH usually aren't doing well? Subjectively, based upon many threads I've seen posted on these forums. This shouldn't be happening according to RP. I remember a while back someone posted a TSH of like 0.02 or something crazy low but they felt awful.

 

[ecstatichamster]

A serious question - why is there obsession over TSH in the peat world? I get the standard answer - TSH is supposedly inflammatory etc. Well then how is it that people who generally score very low on TSH usually aren't doing well? Subjectively, based upon many threads I've seen posted on these forums. This shouldn't be happening according to RP. I remember a while back someone posted a TSH of like 0.02 or something crazy low but they felt awful.

there's a good reason for this.

Even “normal” TSH Levels Correlate With Arterial Stiffness

Cortisol Lowers TSH - Can Make Hypo Thyroid Person Seem "normal"

People with low TSH often have it because of high stress hormones and very poor health.

That's why TSH is not worth bothering with on a blood test IMHO.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

To chime in on the randle cycle / bacterial translocation subject. My guess is alcohol with or near a high fat meal will behave similarly to eating a high sugar and fat meal. Probably best to consume alcohol away from fat. Saturated fat and alcohol both can provoke endotoxin.

 

[CLASH]

Dietary saturated fatty acids reverse inflammatory and fibrotic changes in rat liver despite continued ethanol administration. - PubMed - NCBI

“Rats in groups 1 and 2 were fed a fish oil-ethanol diet for 8 and 6 weeks, respectively. Rats in groups 3 and 4 were fed fish oil and ethanol for 6 weeks before being switched to isocaloric diets containing ethanol with palm oil (group 3) or medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs, group 4) for 2 weeks.”

“The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 2, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, activation of NF-kappaB, and mRNAs for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After the rats were switched to palm oil or MCT, there was marked histological improvement with decreased levels of endotoxin and lipid peroxidation, absence of NF-kappaB activation, and reduced expression of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

“A diet enriched in saturated fatty acids effectively reverses alcohol-induced necrosis, inflammation, and fibrosis despite continued alcohol consumption. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased activation of NF-kappaB and reduced levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Dietary saturated fatty acids reverse inflammatory and fibrotic changes in rat liver despite continued ethanol administration. - PubMed - NCBI

“Rats in groups 1 and 2 were fed a fish oil-ethanol diet for 8 and 6 weeks, respectively. Rats in groups 3 and 4 were fed fish oil and ethanol for 6 weeks before being switched to isocaloric diets containing ethanol with palm oil (group 3) or medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs, group 4) for 2 weeks.”

“The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 2, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, activation of NF-kappaB, and mRNAs for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After the rats were switched to palm oil or MCT, there was marked histological improvement with decreased levels of endotoxin and lipid peroxidation, absence of NF-kappaB activation, and reduced expression of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

“A diet enriched in saturated fatty acids effectively reverses alcohol-induced necrosis, inflammation, and fibrosis despite continued alcohol consumption. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased activation of NF-kappaB and reduced levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

Dietary saturated fatty acids reduce hepatic lipid accumulation but induce fibrotic change in alcohol-fed rats. - PubMed - NCBI

The Association between Dietary Lifestyles and Hepatocellular Injury in Japanese Workers

Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[CLASH]

Dietary saturated fatty acids reduce hepatic lipid accumulation but induce fibrotic change in alcohol-fed rats. - PubMed - NCBI

“The four groups were as follows: an ethanol (E) group fed an ethanol liquid diet (containing 36% energy as fat) with a Ritcher drinking tube; a control (C) group pair-fed an isoenergetic diet without ethanol; an ethanol with high-SFA diet (EHS) group fed an ethanol-containing diet, which contained 90% lard and 10% soybean oil substitute for corn oil, olive oil and safflower oil in the diet of E group; and a control with high-fat diet (CHS) group fed an isoenergetic diet without ethanol, which contained lard and soybean oil as the fat source.“

*Not sure if the researchers are intentionally doing this or are just that incompetent....


——————————————————————

The Association between Dietary Lifestyles and Hepatocellular Injury in Japanese Workers

“Habitual ethanol intake was significantly associated with hepatocellular injury, though the threshold of daily ethanol intake differed among liver markers. Despite the low OR, habitual instant noodle ingestion for lunch is associated with ALT elevation. Since the average content of saturated fatty acids in instant noodles is considerably high among cereal foods in Japan, workers with this habit should be advised to avoid having unbalanced diets.”


*This one must be a joke...
Go read the ingredients on instant noodle packages, its definetly not butter, palm oil, coconut oil, beef tallow or cocoa butter.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Dietary saturated fatty acids reduce hepatic lipid accumulation but induce fibrotic change in alcohol-fed rats. - PubMed - NCBI

“The four groups were as follows: an ethanol (E) group fed an ethanol liquid diet (containing 36% energy as fat) with a Ritcher drinking tube; a control (C) group pair-fed an isoenergetic diet without ethanol; an ethanol with high-SFA diet (EHS) group fed an ethanol-containing diet, which contained 90% lard and 10% soybean oil substitute for corn oil, olive oil and safflower oil in the diet of E group; and a control with high-fat diet (CHS) group fed an isoenergetic diet without ethanol, which contained lard and soybean oil as the fat source.“

*Not sure if the researchers are intentionally doing this or are just that incompetent....


——————————————————————

The Association between Dietary Lifestyles and Hepatocellular Injury in Japanese Workers

“Habitual ethanol intake was significantly associated with hepatocellular injury, though the threshold of daily ethanol intake differed among liver markers. Despite the low OR, habitual instant noodle ingestion for lunch is associated with ALT elevation. Since the average content of saturated fatty acids in instant noodles is considerably high among cereal foods in Japan, workers with this habit should be advised to avoid having unbalanced diets.”


*This one must be a joke...
Go read the ingredients on instant noodle packages, its definetly not butter, palm oil, coconut oil, beef tallow or cocoa butter.

Instant noodles typically mostly palm fat, which is why I sometimes eat them.

 

[CLASH]

Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars. - PubMed - NCBI

1) This study is a bit more difficult to go through or refute. The obvious aspect here is that the overweight participants were overfed 1000kcal/ day for three weeks.

2) Another interesting point is the group overfed on carbs, rather than increasing oxidation of carbs turned the carbs into saturated fat, specifically palmitate. The carb group increased hepatic triglycerides as did the saturated fat group. The liver seems to preferentially keep the saturated fatty acids, while it seems to avoid keeping the unsaturated. If saturated fatty acids are so toxic why 1) would the liver convert sugar into them and 2) would the liver preferentially hold onto them?

3) The insulin resistance from the saturated fat group is expected, although I’m not sure its such a terrible thing. If you go on a low fat diet or very low fat diet and eat mostly carbs you will find yourself eating all day long, and having adrenaline rushes as your blood sugar goes on a rollercoaster ride. Many people on the forum describe this effect and then chalk it up to the idea “my liver isnt storing enough glycogen” yet this is a known occurence in the fruitarian population as well and it occurs in people in thier early 20’s who arent “saturated with PUFA”. I think having fat with the meal helps to induce an insulin resistance as the fats are used by lower order tissues such as muscles to spare sugars for higher order tissues like the nervous system. I think this type of insulin resistance is much different than the insulin resistance in diabetes which is an actual inability of the cell to oxidize sugars thus requiring the use of fatty acids and ketones. Furthermore, sugars tend to induce an “insulin resistance” more than starch. This is also a different type of insulin resistance mediated by fructoses effect on the liver and on the blunting of insulin. The combination of fructose and glucose or plain sucrose increases the insulin level less than starch if I’m not mistaken but keeps it elevated longer as well as keeping the blood sugar elevated longer. This is due to the combination of the liver converting the fructose it recieves into glucose and pushing it out into the blood stream as well as pushing out the glucose it recieves and the blunting effect of the fructose on insulin directly (atleast this is my understanding of the mechanism). If you combine this with saturated fats you can keep your blood sugar elevated for longer periods of time, thus keeping the stress hormones at bay (blood sugar is one of the main regulators of stress hormone release). This is directly opposed to diabetes where the cell cannot oxidize sugar and the blood sugar stays elevated with a simultaneous increase in free fatty acids, insulin, cortisol, ketones etc. precisely, because the only thing the cell can use is the free fatty acids. In one situation you have a steady stream of sugar being supplied to the cells capable of oxidizing all substrate consistently by the maintaining effect of the glucose, fructose and saturated fatty acid combination on the blood sugar. In the other situation you have cells that cant use the sugar so the sugar in the blood piles up along with the insulin while simultaneously triggering the release of cortisol, adrenaline and glucagon to release fatty acids and ketones as the only substrates said cells can use. In both situations blood sugar and insulin are elevated, but for different reasons. Firemen can be present at both a burning building and your local coffee shop, doesnt mean that the coffee shop is burning down.

4) Something I find puzzling about all anti-saturated fat perspectives is the fact that almost all large mammals eat a high fat diet... Also there is a large community of keto people and paleo people eating high saturated diets and curing many of thier ailments. Plus there is a litany of research supporting the beneficial effects of saturated fat, especially in light of the discrediting of the cholesterol hypothesis of heart disease. The only opposition I know of the health benefits of saturated fats is this so called endotoxic response which has mixed evidence at best and the insulin studies...

5) The ceramide increase from saturated fatty acids isnt so surprising. From what I know about ceramides, they are a direct component of fatty membranes like the skin. Can’t really comment on anything else with these as my knowledge is limited.

6) As for endotoxin, we went over this. Saturated fat helps to clear out the endotoxin/bacteria from the gut and neutralize them:
“The pathways upregulated by the SAT diet included those related to inflammation, such as genes related to Escherichia coli infection, natural killer cell–mediated cytotoxicity, nucleotide-binding oligomerization domain-like receptor signaling, and leukocyte transendothelial migration, and to glycerolipid metabolism “

I’m begging to think that body fat may actually be an organ of detoxification just as much as an organ of excess energy storage. The fat may function to neutralize these endotoxins. Just my guess tho, no research to back it up yet.

Another interesting quote here is:
“The SAT and CARB diets shared some pathways related to inflammation, such as genes related to antigen processing, chemokine signaling, and hematopoietic cell lineage.”
Both the carb group and the saturated fat group induced a degree of inflammation in the fatty tissue.”


7) Based on the overall implications of this study, you would do best to make most of your diet unsaturated fatty acids and protein.....
To that I answer with this:
Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids: Reference Page

*The only way to see the real effects of any of these dietary strategies is to test them out on yourself. N=1 but I have eaten 40-50% oy calories as MUFA and SAFA for 1-2 years in conjunction with 30-40% of my calories as fruit sugar and I havent gotten obese, diabetic, heart disease, s/s of fatty liver etc.... and my bowels have been the best they have been.

 

[CLASH]

Instant Noodles with ingredients:

I’m sure there are other brands as well. This is a populare one by me but I’m in the US.

 

[CLASH]

Here is another one thats popular by me and too be fair it is palm oil

 

[mostlylurking]

You aren't taking any niacinamide? But you are going to start taking niacin??? Best to read about it first. Here's a good place to start: Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS).

Where's the rest of your thyroid test? TSH alone tells you nothing. When I was at my worst (seriously hypothyroid) my TSH was at .041. Your cholesterol is slightly elevated, which suggests thyroid issues. Read up on thyroid: Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease and: Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

If your liver is being poisoned by all that alcohol (how could it not be), it isn't reasonable to think it doesn't affect your health. You liver detoxes your body. It converts T4 to T3. It is extremely important for it to function properly. If your liver is sick you are in deep deep do-do. Slightly lowered testosterone is not the primary thing to be concerned about.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Dietary saturated fatty acids reverse inflammatory and fibrotic changes in rat liver despite continued ethanol administration. - PubMed - NCBI

“Rats in groups 1 and 2 were fed a fish oil-ethanol diet for 8 and 6 weeks, respectively. Rats in groups 3 and 4 were fed fish oil and ethanol for 6 weeks before being switched to isocaloric diets containing ethanol with palm oil (group 3) or medium-chain triglycerides (MCTs, group 4) for 2 weeks.”

“The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 2, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, activation of NF-kappaB, and mRNAs for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After the rats were switched to palm oil or MCT, there was marked histological improvement with decreased levels of endotoxin and lipid peroxidation, absence of NF-kappaB activation, and reduced expression of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

“A diet enriched in saturated fatty acids effectively reverses alcohol-induced necrosis, inflammation, and fibrosis despite continued alcohol consumption. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased activation of NF-kappaB and reduced levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2.”

So all I need to do is take a tablespoon of coconut oil before I binge 6 shots of vodka, and I will have less risk of damaging my liver? Where are the human studies to support this?

 

[baccheion]

So all I need to do is take a tablespoon of coconut oil before I binge 6 shots of vodka, and I will have less risk of damaging my liver? Where are the human studies to support this?

Isn't it N-acetyl cysteine that protects the liver if supplemented before (or maybe it was after)?